Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances

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His omission recently has been very very strange

I wonder has he pissed off the manager in some way

I think its more he looked very tired in his recent games, especially with all the Internationals he has been playing inbetween aswell.

I think it was the chelsea? game when he was pretty rubbish, since then fergie has rested him.

Im sure he will play against Villa.
 
Its arguable that Cleverley has simply had too long a season. As opposed to 2011/12 when he didn't have enough of a season, this term Cleverley has been playing almost continuously since last summer's Olympics thanks to becoming an England regular which means he hasn't been able to recover during the breaks from club football. To me Clev looks like he's run out of gas. It just goes to show we need more bodies in midfield and can't rely on 2 or 3 players to play on multiple fronts for us and for their country.
 
You dont really help a young player by not playing him at all. He would need games and it is rather because he doesnt fully trust him.

Thats bullshit. This trust issue that posters here keep brining up? How in the hell do you exactly know whether Fergie trusts him or not? And just because he is young doesnt mean he is capable of playing every game. Burnout, fatigue, injuries (niggling) and being out of form could all play a part in this. Especially the last one, when you are out of form you can only play him so much. Sometimes resting him for a couple of games and bringing back him will help. Look at De Gea for example. He was dropped. He came back fighting stronger than ever. But in Cleverley's case I think it has more to do with fatigue than with form.
 
Well, how can you say that? Cleverley was starting all our big games in the first half of the season. It's just recently he hasn't featured much, and knowing his injury record, I think Fergie is right in cooling him off for sometime to keep him fresh for the last few games.

In the first half of the season - but not anymore. And that for weeks
 
In the first half of the season - but not anymore. And that for weeks

He played against Chelsea at the start of this month. And he's played against Madrid, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs this season already. Doesn't seem like a player that Sir Alex doesn't trust. Cleverley's had quite a few injuries in his short United career and he hasn't had a full season in the Premier League so we're probably just looking after his fitness. I'd rather be underplaying him than overplaying him (see Wilshere).
 
Wasnt he in the GB Olympic team? And has been a regular for England and played a lot of games for us.

A long season for him
 
Not playing him for weeks and prefering a 20 year old defender or a striker says a lot

You're right it does say a lot, it says that Cleverley's been trusted for so much of the season that he's suffered from burn out that Fergie has decided to give him a much needed rest.

Lets make no bones about it, Cleverley has never ever played this much football before, especially at the top level from the Olympics to champions league to starting all international matches and being involved in a title fight.
 
You're right it does say a lot, it says that Cleverley's been trusted for so much of the season that he's suffered from burn out that Fergie has decided to give him a much needed rest.

Lets make no bones about it, Cleverley has never ever played this much football before, especially at the top level from the Olympics to champions league to starting all international matches and being involved in a title fight.

Maybe, but how do you explain that he has not played for weeks now? He's a pro football player, he trains everyday. If he is burnt out, he should be ok within 2 weeks or at least come on after 70mins.

I have not said that Fergie lost faith but it is rather that on current form he doesnt trust him than him being tired for me
 
He played against Chelsea at the start of this month. And he's played against Madrid, City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs this season already. Doesn't seem like a player that Sir Alex doesn't trust. Cleverley's had quite a few injuries in his short United career and he hasn't had a full season in the Premier League so we're probably just looking after his fitness. I'd rather be underplaying him than overplaying him (see Wilshere).

He didnt play well for most season and played out of positon at times too (was it Chelsea?). Underplaying him for weeks is strange, esp. when he seems to be fit and on the bench on a regular basis.
 
I would say a drop in form likely as a result of tiredness is more to blame than Fergie losing faith in him.

Well that is what i meant - due to his poor form, Fergie doesnt trust him right now to deliver. Hence he plays a 20 year old defender or a striker
 
Do you honestly not see why Fergie played Jones against West Ham AWAY? If you dont see that then you really should not be talking.
 
He didnt play well for most season and played out of positon at times too (was it Chelsea?). Underplaying him for weeks is strange, esp. when he seems to be fit and on the bench on a regular basis.

:confused:

You've lost me. Is this some roundabout way of you saying you think Cleverley's not good enough and Jones/Rooney playing in midfield ahead of him is proof that Sir Alex thinks he's not good enough too?
 
To be fair he has played a helluva lot of games this season, starting from Olympics, being regular for both England and United has taken his toil.

The problem is that players like Anderson has not stepped up to the plate and therefore not given Cleverley time to rest during the season, and with Fletcher being out meant we continually to play Carrick/Cleverley in he majority of our games.

I'm hoping with no international tournament this summer he can have a good few weeks off and come back refreshed for the new season.
 
Do you honestly not see why Fergie played Jones against West Ham AWAY? If you dont see that then you really should not be talking.

Are you serious? I would always prefer to play players in their best position unless there is a specific role for him (i.e. man marking Bale, Ronaldo). Just to play him in midfield instead of our proper midfielders just doesnt work really. It never has this season
 
:confused:

You've lost me. Is this some roundabout way of you saying you think Cleverley's not good enough and Jones/Rooney playing in midfield ahead of him is proof that Sir Alex thinks he's not good enough too?

Point is he has not played for weeks now, so I doubt the argument of fatigue or resting. Especially if Fergie decides to play a CB and a striker in midfield. My guess is he is not happy with his form and hence wont play him.

In the last few games, he played everyone rather out of positon than playing Clevs
 
Let's not forget that he has suffered 3 long term injuries in the past three seasons. That coupled with the Olympics and the fact that he has started all the International matches under Hodgson suggests to me his exclusion is more due to fatigue rather than form. Fergie is managing him perfectly IMO.
 
Are you serious? I would always prefer to play players in their best position unless there is a specific role for him (i.e. man marking Bale, Ronaldo). Just to play him in midfield instead of our proper midfielders just doesnt work really. It never has this season

Yes Jones did have a specific role. He was in their to add physicality to our midfield. When your opponent has two good headers of the ball in Carroll and Nolan and a beast of a physical player in Diame, you need someone like Jones to provide cover. Cleverley would have been muscled out of the ball. Jones is not going to be starting in midfield week in week out. It has worked 2 out of 3 times. He did great against Madrid and Everton and not so good against West Ham.
 
Also Pablo you are forgetting the fact that this is his first full season with us. Last season he started off well and had an injury laden season. This year he did well to stay fit and played in many big games and turned in good performances.
 
Yes Jones did have a specific role. He was in their to add physicality to our midfield. When your opponent has two good headers of the ball in Carroll and Nolan and a beast of a physical player in Diame, you need someone like Jones to provide cover. Cleverley would have been muscled out of the ball. Jones is not going to be starting in midfield week in week out. It has worked 2 out of 3 times. He did great against Madrid and Everton and not so good against West Ham.

Did you watch the game at all? Jones didnt provide any protection or cover at all as he was playing higher up than Rooney. He played like 26 passes too, hardly made a tackle or interception.

He did great against Madrid cause all he did was tracking Ronaldo and shutting him down. Not cause he was spraying out passes and making us tick
 
Did you watch the game at all? Jones didnt provide any protection or cover at all as he was playing higher up than Rooney. He played like 26 passes too, hardly made a tackle or interception.

He did great against Madrid cause all he did was tracking Ronaldo and shutting him down. Not cause he was spraying out passes and making us tick

And did you not read what I wrote? I said he did not work out against West Ham right? I admitted he did not do well right? Of course bad performances happen. You got to deal with it.
 
You are assuming a lot based on very little. There are a dozen or more reasons why players dont get picked.

That is why I used the words "rather" and "I think". Didnt provide with a list of fachts really, did I?
 
And did you not read what I wrote? I said he did not work out against West Ham right? I admitted he did not do well right? Of course bad performances happen. You got to deal with it.

You said he had a specifc role in the WH game - but in this particular game, he didnt have the role as you described
 
Also Pablo you are forgetting the fact that this is his first full season with us. Last season he started off well and had an injury laden season. This year he did well to stay fit and played in many big games and turned in good performances.

If this is the case and Fergie really wants to rest him for a longer time, fine. I just dont see the reason to play a defender, striker or 39 year old winger in midfield when you have a young, fit, talented midfielder who could do with a bit more games
 
If this is the case and Fergie really wants to rest him for a longer time, fine. I just dont see the reason to play a defender, striker or 39 year old winger in midfield when you have a young, fit, talented midfielder who could do with a bit more games

Right now, clearly, he can't. That's why he is being rested. His entire last season was wasted because of an injury, and he wasn't able to come back properly at the end as well. And that's what I think Fergie is trying to avoid this season as well, to not burn him out. As someone said, a player who has played against Madrid, Chelsea, City, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, etc and performed can't just go down the pecking order just like that.
 
I'm pretty sure he's going to be a mainstay in our midfield for some time once he matures. His talent is there for all to see. Fergie is managing him perfectly right now, preventing him from burning out so early.

Not to the extent that he is guaranteed to be a 'mainstay in our midfield'. I think Cleverley has a lot to prove still. Needs to take more responsibility, which will hopefully come. But for the player he is now, we can certainly do better, and not just the 'finished article'. There are a fair few players his age or younger who would improve us I could probably think of.
 
You are assuming a lot based on very little. There are a dozen or more reasons why players dont get picked.

Exactly. We just don't know. It's guesswork and conjecture. For all we know, Cleverley could have asked personally for a rest if he has felt burned out. Perhaps he's not been training as well as other players at the moment. We'll probably never know. I don't really see it as cause for concern. He's played alot of football in the past year, and he's still young. I reckon he'll play 2 or 3 more games from our remaining few.
 
Not to the extent that he is guaranteed to be a 'mainstay in our midfield'. I think Cleverley has a lot to prove still. Needs to take more responsibility, which will hopefully come. But for the player he is now, we can certainly do better, and not just the 'finished article'. There are a fair few players his age or younger who would improve us I could probably think of.

There's no guarantees for any young footballers.

Cleverley's best performances, this season and last, have clearly shown he has the potential to be a mainstay of our midfield in the future. All the more so because he's homegrown and has an attachment to the club you will never get from trying to buy someone in his place.

It's deeply flawed logic to suggest we overlook the potential of young players at our club just because there might be more talented players the same age playing somewhere else.
 
Id be surprised if Cleverley himself asked to be rested. Its true we dont know, but we can have an educated guess and reasonable confidence in the accuracy of it: he is young, he has played a lot of football, especially by his historical standards, and this can be damaging for development in young players. wasnt SAF talking about this just recently with all the Michael Owen tributes, that he had been played too much as a youngster and had never really fulfilled his potential because of it. I remember years ago he used to hold Rooney back when we were all crying out for him. SAF obviously thinks a protracted rest will do him good. Nothing to worry about.
 
There's no guarantees for any young footballers.

Cleverley's best performances, this season and last, have clearly shown he has the potential to be a mainstay of our midfield in the future. All the more so because he's homegrown and has an attachment to the club you will never get from trying to buy someone in his place.

It's deeply flawed logic to suggest we overlook the potential of young players at our club just because there might be more talented players the same age playing somewhere else.

It wasn't my logic per se. I am saying that there are a few levels for Cleverley to improve to be amongst the very best midfielders of his age group alone, let alone in general. It is because of this that I find it difficult to see how he has proven he is going to be good enough to be a mainstay for Manchester United just yet. It's not even a case of us going out and splashing on another young player. I haven't necessarily seen enough to predict that he will be a better player than Nick Powell probably will, which alone will challenge his right to be a mainstay.

That said, I do think it is also a flawed logic to significantly lower the bar in terms of our main rivals in order to field a home grown player for the sake of it. Surely, if a homegrown player isn't good enough to be a mainstay for us, he shouldn't be? It is also quite easy to have an affinity to Manchester United, homegrown or not, if you wouldn't have a chance in hell playing for a club of similar stature.
 
Cleverleys shite and we've agreed a deal to sell him to Burnley for 1.25m

Why else would SAF not play him eh?!?!
 
His omission recently has been very very strange

I wonder has he pissed off the manager in some way

Has it? I'd say it's fairly clear that his form tailed off. Seems Fergie is just taking him of the firing line.
 
It wasn't my logic per se. I am saying that there are a few levels for Cleverley to improve to be amongst the very best midfielders of his age group alone, let alone in general. It is because of this that I find it difficult to see how he has proven he is going to be good enough to be a mainstay for Manchester United just yet. It's not even a case of us going out and splashing on another young player. I haven't necessarily seen enough to predict that he will be a better player than Nick Powell probably will, which alone will challenge his right to be a mainstay.

That said, I do think it is also a flawed logic to significantly lower the bar in terms of our main rivals in order to field a home grown player for the sake of it. Surely, if a homegrown player isn't good enough to be a mainstay for us, he shouldn't be? It is also quite easy to have an affinity to Manchester United, homegrown or not, if you wouldn't have a chance in hell playing for a club of similar stature.

Where did anyone say any different?

Nonetheless, you'd be very foolish to ignore the importance of having a homegrown core of players to build the team around. It's been the basis of success at Manchester United for decades.
 
Where did anyone say any different?

Nonetheless, you'd be very foolish to ignore the importance of having a homegrown core of players to build the team around. It's been the basis of success at Manchester United for decades.

You didn't say that to be fair, although I did think it wa inferred. You seemed to say that the club shouldn't be going to buy better players elsewhere at the extent of developing home talent.

In any case, I agree that the ideal scenario is a home core. It also helps to do that when the players in question are as good as Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs. That said, if they are only as good as Nicky Butt, for instance, then they should not really be forming the core of the team. Barcelona have a similar model to the one you are encouraging, but they have not compromised on quality control as a result. If we are developing players good enough to start for our first team, of course, I would rather they played than anyone else.

I think Fergie has been good in the sense that, where we don't have the required quality within our ranks, he will try to buy British talent where possible. I agree with this model too, and all I am saying is that the presence of Tom Cleverley does not necessarily mean this model should not be applied again to the midfield area. For arguments sake, if we could get Wilshere, we should - and he'd walk into our team, past Cleverley on the way. I'd prefer Wilshere to Gundogan, largely for the English factor, and I'm sure Fergie would agree. That said, I'd prefer Gundogan to Cleverley, simply for the quality factor.

Essentially, I agree to building the team with homebased players where possible, just not sure whether this should apply to Tom Cleverley or not yet. Not writing him off, just saying I'm not convinced as of yet.
 
I'm confused. When Cleverley was playing every game, our performances were generally good. The usual complaint was his influence on the game faded.

Since his form dropped and he has been out of the side, the way we have been playing has been noticeably worse. One of the best things about the Carrick-Cleverley partnership was that both players hit the ground running from the very start of the match. They passed quickly and accurately and the tempo was high while other teams needed to settle. City and Chelsea away, is the prime example. Two early goals from a bright start, because our midfield needed no time at all to get going. As our control of the game faded, he was invariably blamed, which in itself is debatable as our momentum as a team vanished. These days, we play at one pace for the entire game.

I don't think he is getting the credit he deserves. This "Carrick has carried the midfield by himself" thing is plain wrong. If he returns to the team with anything like he was showing just a few months ago, i have no doubt our game will improve.
 
I'm confused. When Cleverley was playing every game, our performances were generally good. The usual complaint was his influence on the game faded.

Since his form dropped and he has been out of the side, the way we have been playing has been noticeably worse. One of the best things about the Carrick-Cleverley partnership was that both players hit the ground running from the very start of the match. They passed quickly and accurately and the tempo was high while other teams needed to settle. City and Chelsea away, is the prime example. Two early goals from a bright start, because our midfield needed no time at all to get going. As our control of the game faded, he was invariably blamed, which in itself is debatable as our momentum as a team vanished. These days, we play at one pace for the entire game.

I don't think he is getting the credit he deserves. This "Carrick has carried the midfield by himself" thing is plain wrong. If he returns to the team with anything like he was showing just a few months ago, i have no doubt our game will improve.

I don't think he's been that great to be honest, although he's definitely been the best we have (after Carrick of course).
 
I'm confused. When Cleverley was playing every game, our performances were generally good. The usual complaint was his influence on the game faded.

Since his form dropped and he has been out of the side, the way we have been playing has been noticeably worse. One of the best things about the Carrick-Cleverley partnership was that both players hit the ground running from the very start of the match. They passed quickly and accurately and the tempo was high while other teams needed to settle. City and Chelsea away, is the prime example. Two early goals from a bright start, because our midfield needed no time at all to get going. As our control of the game faded, he was invariably blamed, which in itself is debatable as our momentum as a team vanished. These days, we play at one pace for the entire game.

I don't think he is getting the credit he deserves. This "Carrick has carried the midfield by himself" thing is plain wrong. If he returns to the team with anything like he was showing just a few months ago, i have no doubt our game will improve.

Agree with this. I didn't really buy the 'his influence fades' stuff anyway, but even if you do there's no question that our best form this season - basically from November through to the Madrid games - came when he and Carrick were our settled midfield partnership.
 
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