Well surely compare players who DO play in the same role then, surely? its random and meaningless what you've just argued. Here's another completely daft question, would i rather Cleverley for free or Torres for 50 million...
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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Well surely compare players who DO play in the same role then, surely? its random and meaningless what you've just argued. Here's another completely daft question, would i rather Cleverley for free or Torres for 50 million...
This
Hazard and Cleverley. Oscar plays the same position as Rooney and Kagawa so it would be pointless bringing him here. Just as pointless as comparing him to Cleverley, really.
Oscar can definitely play centre mid and he's not shy of putting a shift in himself. I really like Cleverley but I don't think he's better than Oscar in any way except (hopefully) his mentality/work ethic. Cleverley and Oscar both started their professional careers on the wing and then moved into the middle, the main reason Cleverley plays deeper is because there's space in his team for him there, I don't think it has anything to with him being more suited to the role.
Not that I agree with what Will's saying, that's a whole new kind of logic right there.
Not that I agree with what Will's saying, that's a whole new kind of logic right there.
Anyone who say they would rather have Cleverley over Hazard for purely footballing reasons, no homegrown sentimentality etc, is deluded. This is what I mean when I said Cleverley is overrated in the "whos the most overrated" thread.
Hes a great talent, no doubt about it, and its really nice to see young players we have developed come through and make it at United, but Hazard is both the better player and the bigger talent.
Hes a great talent, no doubt about it, and its really nice to see young players we have developed come through and make it at United, but Hazard is both the better player and the bigger talent.
He's more talented than Cleverley, for sure, but my general (first) impressions of him are that he would be lost in central midfield. I don't think he would have much defensive nous about him and, with the presence of Rooney and Kagawa, he wouldn't get many games in his natural position. Cleverley is a much better fit for our squad at the minute in my opinion.
Couldn't have said it better mate. On your last points about Carrick and Fletcher, their form will be the decider of that. As good as Fletcher has been, he's still miles off the pace from what I've seen thus far. If he can kick on, then I think he has a real chance of establishing himself in the side once again. Not sure what to think about Carrick. His best performance for me came against Newcastle in the diamond where he acted as the pivot and shored up the defense. It allowed him to get forward when necessary but it also afforded him more space and time with the ball.
This brings me to my next point. I like Rooney at the tip of the diamond or a midfield 3 but it's a position which requires consistency. By that, I mean consistency with the basics. First of all, in games where the margins are tight and we need to remain disciplined defensively, it doesn't take much to give your opponent an edge. As much as he's calmed down, he still does worry me on occasion. Giving away silly fouls just seems to be in his nature and his energy and drive can be an overcompensation from a defensive standpoint. Secondly, I still find his touch a bit too erratic for my liking. Especially when we're under pressure and on some days, he's brilliant, and other times not so much. I do feel my criticism is a bit harsh on him but in those times where we need a cool head and someone to help us keep the ball in midfield, he sometimes doesn't provide the necessary outlet. As others have mentioned, this issue is compounded when the wingers are far too wide and we look isolated and stretched. In big games like Sunday, you certainly need that. Most other times though, we can get away with it and the addition of RVP makes this even more pronounced.
Great points. First bit is why I feel some people underrate him massively. As if being neat and tidy doesn't have some considerable impact when you're under pressure. Second point is one which is easy to forget. This is going to be his first full season and the biggest thing I hope he gets out of it is maturity.
Not sure if he'll be playing tomorrow. Just seen him in spar spending £58 on booze.
In fairness we've seen little defensive nous from Cleverley so far either. I'm sure he would leave gaps in the middle but he's very busy off the ball, I've not seen much of him for Chelsea but for Brazil he's shown he can do pretty much whatever's required of him in midfield whether that's providing a stabilising presence, dictating the tempo or forcing the play.
Without having read back please tell me that no one said this
Not really, the winger thing was just the usual Fergie thing of starting a CM out on the wing. Same as he did with Fletch, as well as players like David Jones and Liam Miller. I think Cleverley was generally a CM in the youth and reserve sides.
Sometimes you look in a field and you see a cow and you think it's a better cow than the one you've got in your own field.
Easier to get game time on the wing rather than the middle really.
Played at fullback a bit in the reserves, and played out wide a lot on loan, but I think he was seen as a midfielder here.
Yeah the wing on loan thing was to do with getting a game. He's not a winger who's since discovered he can play central.
Young midfielders who are good on the ball but lack the defensive discipline are often played on the wing to gather experience and improve their positioning.
Still very convinced Cleverly is an attacking midfielder rather than a pure central midfielder.
I'm 85% sure that cow comment from Fergie was an in-joke, taking the piss out of Rafa for his bizarre milk comments a week or so earlier.
What did Rafa say? Or is it googleable? Or is this a word? And if it is, have I spelt it correctly?
So you could own a cow if you wanted a cow. That entitles you to talk about cows in my book. Not so sure about Fergie though. I doubt he could tell a Friesian from an Aberdeen Angus.
That's almost Cantonaesque. These southern Europeans have a penchant for cryptic metaphors.By field I meant garden.
"Some people cannot see a priest on a mountain of sugar."
Rafa Benitez
Rafa Benitez
No I know, nor is Oscar. That's kind of my point. Just because they played in a certain position at one point in time doesn't mean that's the kind of player they are. Just because Cleverley plays as a centre mid doesn't mean that's his (best) role, likewise with Oscar playing further forward, they could easily be playing in each others' position under different circumstances. When I said deeper I meant deeper than attacking midfield/in the hole, not deeper than the wing. Although when he first got game-time for us in pre-season and stuff I did think he looked like he'd eventually play a Park-type role.
Cleverley plays in centre mid for us rather because that's where there's space in the team. I don't think it's at all clear that Cleverley is a natural centre mid and I could easily see him playing in a more advanced role if he was playing somewhere else. Basically, all I was saying was I don't think it's clear where Cleverley or Oscar are best suited to playing so the notion of "you can't compared Oscar and Cleverley because they play different positions" is flawed.
Didn't have a great game, and I felt he was lucky not to be sent off. Think Fergie was right to take him off when he did
Very good up until he got subbed.
Was pretty average. Second game in a row were he looks off pace.
Him and Wilshere just seemed intent on kicking each other off the pitch.
Doing well on the ball but off the ball he needs to work on his defensive game, he tries but he's not very effective imo. Reckon ando could put him under some pressure soon.
Another lacking display from him. He doesnt seem to have any kind of connection with any of our other attacking players when Welbeck isnt playing. Anderson was involved three times as much in half the amount of time.
Seriously? Garbage against Chelsea very good today. Shut Wilshire down completely used the ball well. Shame Dean made it clear he was on the verge of red carding him cos I'd have liked to see him stay on and Carrick come off.
I don't know, he's good at pressing and works hard, he just seems to be learning the balance of his role. When to go forward and when to stay deep. He'll learn, nice to have options in the middle for once.
I must be the only one that thought he did well. Misplaced 1 pass the whole time he was on. Got stuck in on Wilshere and did well with Carrick protecting Evans and Rio.
I thought he was good until he was subbed.
His reaction time and thinking is so quick.
His reaction time and thinking is so quick.
He was good. Passing wasn't off and his closing was very good. Not sure why people are criticizing him.
He really got the little cnut Wilshere riled up.
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