He wasn't that great but when the second goal went in the teams mentality changed and I don't think he's noted particularly for his defensive work. It was an awkward game, they put us under a fair bit of pressure and our general play got sloppy not just cleverlys, but it's a learning experience for him.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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He didn't have his best game yesterday but it was more down to poor concentration and lack of experience than anything else.
However at times he attacked the space intelligently in tight areas and showed a great change of pace on the ball which left their midfield for dead and took Mikel and Ramirez out of the game. On the 2 or 3 occasions he did this either his final ball let him down or he went for a one-two but didn't get the return.
However at times he attacked the space intelligently in tight areas and showed a great change of pace on the ball which left their midfield for dead and took Mikel and Ramirez out of the game. On the 2 or 3 occasions he did this either his final ball let him down or he went for a one-two but didn't get the return.
I did watch but I can't recall
He was awfull in that game, but in his defence he played on the wing.
Watched the match again. He wasn't as poor as I initially thought but huge learning experience for him in terms of concentration and discipline. It's his first big game since last season so I think he'll handle it much better the next time he plays.
Very big learning experience. Did some stupid things...but young lad learning.
Drifts a bit in and out of matches - basically all matches thus far. His game yesterday was not his best, but he is important still; how many other midfielders can say they outpaced Ramirez and won the ball? Scholes and Carrick would surely struggle with this, as would most. He has remarkably quick feet, and his physique is getting better and better. Great passer of the ball and great at finding space - is a good player with the potential of being great.
I think if we'd played Scholes in there last night we would've got absolutely mullered in the middle of the park. Cleverley's energy and speed of feet had it's uses. Also, in our best periods he did really well.
Cleverley is 23. Hazard is 21, as is Oscar. If you were building a team, and had the option of taking 2 out of 3, which 2 would you choose?
Van Persie.
Hazard most definitely. The other would depend on what other players am getting.
If you had an apple and an orange, what would you choose?
Cleverley's role is much different to the ones of Oscar and Hazard. He's got a lot more defensive duties than they do, which is often the hardest thing for young players. It's not without reason that most defenders only become great during their 20s while you see offensive players peaking some years earlier. For me, Cleverley biggest issues at the moment is that he drifts out of games as he did yesterday. When it goes well for him he's pulling all the strings and is seemingly everywhere on the pitch at the same time, but later he can virtually disappear for a while. It's much the same with Hazard and Oscar really, and if you put them in Cleverley's role it'd be a lot more noticeable.
I'm not saying Cleverley is a better player or a bigger talent, but it's a poor comparison.
Don't understand this, what have Hazard and Oscar got to do with the fact Cleverley is still learning and gathering experience? Cleverley has a possible 10 years in front of him at the highest level and its a fact that he is still young and learning. Every individual is different and should be judged as such.
You do realise that its possible you can be an excellent player yet not quite as good as special talents like Hazard and Oscar, who cost nearly £60 million put together not to mention wages.
I was comparing 'quality of player' rather than suggesting that all three play exactly the same role. That's why I said 'if you were building a team'.
If, for instance, you were putting together a club side tomorrow, and you could choose any 11 players, 23 and under, from world football, would you pick Cleverley?
If he's not as good as Hazard and Oscar, and never will be, he's not good enough for us. We're Manchester United, the most profitable football club in the world, and shouldn't be settling for second best.
Let me ask a better question, would you rather spunk numerous millions on two players who don't really have an affinity for your club or would you rather see a lad who's been with us since 11 grow and prosper. Not every Footballer develops at the same rate and at the end of it all where you finish is what matters, stop making stupid comparisons and let Cleverley get on with his development.
Christ, you're really following the wrong club if you think 20m+ plus signings in every position and no youth team promotion is the way United work.
City or Chelsea are more your style perhaps.
This is even worse. You really are a tit. Giving Irish fans a bad name.
Ah, right. "Building a team". Tell me how that's at all relevant to this thread again? Cleverley is already our player, he's pretty decent at what we want him to do and there's no reason to not expect him to become better. Why does it matter if a couple of Chelsea youngsters, who both play in different roles to Cleverley, are better right now? Players develop differently and if Sir Alex thinks that Cleverley is good enough for United, he's probably good enough. I'm guessing you wanted to get rid of Fletcher some years ago too?
Oh come on. Nicky Butt played 387 games in central midfield for Manchester United during one of the most successful eras of the club and he was never more than a "can do a good job" player.
All of the best teams in history are made up of excellent players sprinkled with special stars. Cleverley has the potential to be one of those excellent players for us.If you want to look at it as any player who hasn't got the potential of Oscar and Hazard isn't good enough thats fair enough but you would be wrong. It doesn't work like that. Teams don't work like that.
I guarantee we will be just as successful over the next 5 years or so as Chelsea, if not more so, and its possible that if Cleverley continues with his current rate of improvement he can play a part in that.
Will is a fecking moron or a massive wum. Never quite figured it out but he's been in spectacular form for the last couple of days.
Hazard has the potential to one of the very best players in the world in my opinion, while I expect Oscar to go on to become a brilliant midfielder too.
While we want the very best, we're not always going to have a midfield packed full of world class players. What do you think of the likes of Carrick and Fletcher at the moment? If not, do you think we should just get rid of them? If Cleverley can go on to be a good to very good player, then I think he could have a long term place in this squad.
I don't see a comparison between the quality of our players, and that of our domestic rivals, as stupid or irrelevant. We've spent more than enough in recent years to afford the likes of Hazard and Oscar. We just haven't bought them.
Instead, we've tended to buy half players, or half developed players, who, unfortunately for us, haven't quite morphed into the real deal. The list is long - Bebe, Obertan, Tosic, Berbatov, Young, Hernandez and perhaps Anderson and Nani... All players with some outstanding attributes, but lacking an ingredient or two, which Fergie magic was supposed to add. Except it never happened. It might have been better, and cheaper, to have bought the finished article. Robin van Persie is looking like a pretty good investment.
@ Siorac
The Nicky Butt citation is fair enough, but I genuinely think European football has moved on. How many 'can do a job' players do Barca and Real have?
Word.
Watched it again also...things are definitely clearer on second viewing. It was tough for him to string any rhythm together, such was the pace of the game. He didn't have a great outing but neither did anyone else really in the central midfield positions. He knows he didn't do himself justice you could tell when he came off....just needs to get some consistency and hopefully Ferguson continues to pick him.
One thing I was impressed with was the way he just got on with it when Torres nearly put his foot through him.
Talented......and tough.
No it isn't. Please, just stop.
I agree, he wasn't awful. He wasn't spectacular though. But I will say that when Rooney is tracking back he tracks straight into the zones that Cleverley looks to find space in nearly every time. He then has to continue foraging into other area's to look for the ball.
He is definitely a smart player. You can see it just in his movement alone. Given more freedom of choice and responsibility I think he could really flourish. Maybe just trying to hard to establish himself at the moment.
You're right about that! I think some posters on here should be required to watch the game twice simply to save themselves the embarrassment of putting out ridiculous posts.
Agree on everything else you said too. Think he's getting closer to establishing himself in the side.
Nicky Butt and Darren Fletcher would like to show you their league winners medals
Good observation with Rooney. It corresponded to the period we lost our way. For the majority of those first 30 minutes, we kept our shape in midfield pretty well. It wasn't too bad after Chelsea had their spell but enough to where we left gaps. Another key observation is Ramires was instructed to push up more and it meant we had to deal with 4 players centrally constantly moving about and coming at us from different angles. It was a tough task and we just didn't have to enough support from the flanks to really contain it. Add in the fact that Carrick arguably, had a mare and you get the sort of situation we saw yesterday. Have to give credit to Chelsea though. They were quite good at times and I feel there was very little we could have done for their second.
It's good more and more people are picking up on Tom's movement. I think he's underrated by a fair few simply because he doesn't necessarily have one outstanding aspect to his game. All good teams have at least one player who excels at the basics and you have to say, Tom is definitely one of those players. I'm sure he will get playing time and really curious to see how he develops throughout the season. Drifting in and out of games is symptomatic with being a young midfielder. One of the reasons why Wilshire is rated so highly. His maturity alone means he knows where to be so he's constantly involved in the game. Tom's a cracking player in my view and he's only going to get better. I expect a good performance from him against Arsenal.
Good post
Is this post serious?
I think it has been generally glossed over this season but for me there is a genuine incompatibility with Carrick and our midfield selections bar Scholes. (That particular pair creates in itself another problem due to his lack of mobility.)
He is just not adventurous enough to accomodate a smart passing, sharp moving midfielder. He either can't keep up. Or doesn't have the feet to keep the ball under pressure to open up a more adventurous pass that will create. Coupled with his confidence issues it tends to wind up being that he breaks a lot of the play down and safely recycles it rather than moving the ball X yards to accommodate the smart movement of his partner and to play him in.
This is the complete opposite to Cleverley in particular's style. (also Ando) Our system is quite fluid in that respect with Rooney in the mix. They can all pop up on all parts of the pitch and that works in his favor.
I hope he plays well for the next few games. The extra energy will definitely be useful in a couple of tough fixtures.
I think him and Carrick can play together. Only if Carrick is actually in some good form though. Carrick looked incredibly off the pace and I still felt that way after watching the match a second time. Other than that, better off with the diamond or an actual midfield 3.
I feel the opposite, Carrick is probably the only CM that can pretty much play with any one of our CM option. I always thought him and Anderson made a fine pairing, even back when Fletcher was playing. Carrick can and has played very well on many occasions with one or more of the following centrally.
Fletcher
Scholes
Giggs
Anderson
With regards to Cleverely, they've not had that many games together but, I see no reason why he'd be deficient at making it work. Cleverely also has to be able to compliment/adjust his game depending on his partner as well. Much like when he and Ando play he'll need to be a lot more aware defensively.
Watched the game again and wasn't as bad as initially thought. One thing that I did notice about him though which was really encouraging, was how much he looks around him when defending. Always trying to be aware of opposition players around him which means he keeps his shape well and he's not shy in telling the people around him where to be if needs be. Pity he switched off for the throw in to Mikel in the first half because I feel that was the catalyst for the end of the half being put under pressure. But defensively he's clearly always trying to learn and will get even better.
Got a good engine on him, clearly someone who soaks up information and works hard to improve his game. I think generally a few things didn't come off on sunday but he will learn and kick on from that. I think he's got a really bright future.
As for his best partner in midfield, i've felt for a few weeks now that Fletcher will eventually take the place of Carrick this season and the two (cleverley and fletcher with another) suit each others games. I think a fully sharp Fletcher will make us better defensively, I know quite a few disagree but I think he's key for our European chances as well.
Hazard or Oscar in Cleverley's role would have handed us a 8-2 style hiding. so much for your building a team theory.
I think he's exactly what we need. A couple times when we were under pressure he was happy to do a quick one-two and run the ball into the other half. Granted his decision making and execution wasn't exactly brilliant after that, but he's not even a couple of seasons into his career at the highest level.
I was talking about standard of player rather than role. A good indication is price tag. If Cleverley was on the market tomorrow, would someone offer us 30 million? If Clev and Oscar were both on sale, who'd go for the bigger price?
I don't know the definitive answer to the last question, but it does focus the mind on the issue I was raising - which of them is the better player?
None of my posts were intended to belittle Cleverley - he may fulfill our hopes and become a top player. But I suspect most neutrals would currently rank him below two younger players whom our domestic rivals acquired over the summer.
A team can't have 11 superstars who do their own thing.
Cleverley didn't play well against Chelsea because he was visibly nervous but he is a talented enough player on the ball to play for United. He works for the team and is tactically strong with a good eye for a pass- once he has the big game experience he will be a fine player, whether he is a Eden Hazard level talent or not.
Cleverley didn't play well against Chelsea because he was visibly nervous but he is a talented enough player on the ball to play for United. He works for the team and is tactically strong with a good eye for a pass- once he has the big game experience he will be a fine player, whether he is a Eden Hazard level talent or not.
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