It's Cleverley's personality which is the most impressive thing about him.. comes across like he really loves his football and wants to make the most out of every moment. Seems very driven and has the hallmarks of a Manchester United player in that respect.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
I like Wilshere, I think he has similar enthusiasm to Tom. Yeah he's got a bit of bite but that's no bad thing in a midfielder. He just wants to win.
He's a gobby little twat but in the best way possible. He's class. We'd be a much better team if we swapped Wilshere for any of our midfielders.
Not Carrick at least and the role that he provides for United.
I thought he was probably our best player in the first half.
Fergie wisely decided to take him off when he got close to seeing a second yellow. Wenger didn't with Wilshere, and it ruined the match for Arsenal.
Fergie wisely decided to take him off when he got close to seeing a second yellow. Wenger didn't with Wilshere, and it ruined the match for Arsenal.
Wilshere and Cleverley are going to be brilliant together for England. Read an article recently suggesting that a Lampard-Gerrard situation might develop, but that's nonsense. Jack and Tom are both pass and move players, and as a rule that sort of player only gets better when played alongside someone similar. See Barcelona for more details.
EDIT: Here's the article, if anyone's interested.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/332?cc=5739
Almost everything in it is bollocks (the Khedira/Schweinsteiger comparison is waaaay off the mark), but the idea of them as a midfield pair for England (probably with someone like Carrick behind them) is an interesting talking point.
EDIT: Here's the article, if anyone's interested.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/blog/_/name/tacticsandanalysis/id/332?cc=5739
Almost everything in it is bollocks (the Khedira/Schweinsteiger comparison is waaaay off the mark), but the idea of them as a midfield pair for England (probably with someone like Carrick behind them) is an interesting talking point.
They were absolutely shockingly awful with 11 men, the sending off didn't ruin anything really.
Well, it ruined their chance to somehow get back in it.
Don't let this get too out of hand. They were very bad, but that had a lot to do with us being very good (excepting actually finishing some chances in the final third) and to do with Fergie's tactical decisions, notably Rooney marking Arteta out of the game.
Neither Wilshere or Cazorla looked quite up to scratch, but that was mostly because Cleverley and Carrick literally didn't give them a second to settle. And being outplayed by Cleverley clearly got under Wilshere's skin.
Still, the red card didn't really ruin their game, it was already ruined anyway.
Fergie doesn't quite agree with you when it comes to your generous evaluation of our performance though.
This.
Wilshire looked in great nick last weekend and was easily Arsenal's best player against QPR and Cazorla wasn't all in that game either: Should've had an assist, should've scored from 10 yards out.
When you chuck in Arteta you can make a case that the Arsenal midfield trio are as good as any midfield in the league (Sky Sports tried their hardest to do that before the match). If they looked bad yesterday its because our set up stifled them and that got up Wilshire's nose.
That was typified by Wilshire's first booking. Clev robbed the ball off of him cleanly and emerged into space to play a pass and Wilshire couldn't take it so he hacked him down. Sour grapes.
No I actually agree with Fergie for the most part. I just think it's important to see the distinction between 'playing badly' and 'could have done better'. We played very well indeed until the second goal, with the exception of our finishing and final ball which was the reason it wasn't actually our fourth or fifth goal. But at that point, when pushing on would clearly have yielded goals, and was also the best way to maintain the lead (the more we attacked, the less threatening they were looking), we seemed to deliberately stop trying.
But we got into that position - of having the choice of pushing on and mauling them or sitting back to 'protect the lead' (
) like we did - by being very good up until that point. It wasn't just because they were shit.Needs to grow a pair because he absolutely dreads expressing himself. There was one moment yesterday when we went 3 v 2 on Arsenal goal and instead of taking the ball further and striking it or putting it on a plate for someone else he just couldn't resist shrugging the responsibility off himself by putting a tame cross in.
It's a shame because he's a brilliant little player apart from that. Will improve it obviously.
It's a shame because he's a brilliant little player apart from that. Will improve it obviously.
I love how he's obviously worked on the defensive part of his game. He's got a bit of bite on him actually, it's something he's improved since last season.
Will come with experience and regular playing time. At the moment he's playing within himself, ensuring he does all the right things... he's definitely got what it takes to up his game offensively in a big way... but for this to happen he needs to stay injury free and made to feel important.
At least playing him with Carrick ensures we've not got a big, gaping hole where our midfield is supposed to be.
Agreed, which is why I'm not as keen as the Cleverley/Anderson pairing that a lot of people here seem to want to see. As much as it works in an attacking sense, we are more defensively solid with Carrick in there beside the more attack minded Cleverley.
This season having Anderson in there has been fine, at least until he physically dies after about 70 minutes.
The big gaping hole thing has tended to happen with Scholes in there this season. Which is natural, since he can't really run no longer.
I wrote an article on the Anderson-Cleverly partnership and while people complained about the gaping hole in midfield, it also had to do with our backline failing to push up properly to cover the space. There are deficiencies in that partnership but if you're going to implement it correctly, you're better off with a more team pressing approach across the whole pitch. We don't really do that though when we have 2 CMs which further highlights the problem.
All three. It only means dropping Young, and who'd notice?
If we're going for three midfielders then it means shifting Rooney or RVP out wide, which is a waste of talent on the scale of Real Madrid with half of their signings in the last decade. We've bought RVP because Fergie clearly wants to play with two men up top, in my opinion.
I don't think that's true at all. The beauty of a 433/4321/diamond is its flexibility. Here are a couple of ways we could do it:
Anderson Carrick Cleverley
-------Rooney
Valencia RVP-----------
-------Rooney
Valencia RVP-----------
...with Rooney in a totally free role. He can stay in the hole, he can push forwards to become a second striker, he can push wide to provide width. If he's in the hole and we need more width on the left, Cleverley can pull out wider. Or Evra can push up and be more of a wingback, safe in the knowledge that a 3-man midfield gives him much more defensive cover.
Anderson Carrick Cleverley
Kagawa Rooney
RVP
Kagawa Rooney
RVP
In this one there are so many bodies in midfield that the fullbacks will have massive licence to come forward. And again, any of Anderson, Cleverley, Rooney or Kagawa can provide width if needed. Just because no-one is in a winger's position on the team sheet doesn't mean there's no width available.
Carrick
Anderson Cleverley
Rooney
RVP Hernandez
Anderson Cleverley
Rooney
RVP Hernandez
As above, really. Although this one probably doesn't lend itself to width. But then that's not always a bad thing.
If you want to play Nani, swap him for Valencia in the first or Kagawa in the second. Either formation would suit him.
I don't think it did. They didn't look like they were going to get back into the game before the card anyway.
A couple of years ago we were playing Giggs in this tucked-in midfield role, where he was nominally on the wing but in most cases it was Evra actually positioned there. The formation was lopsided but worked really well.
I always thought Anderson had the qualities to play that role, but it hasn't been tried much for some reason.
Problem is I'm not sure Pat can get up and down like that anymore. Hence the constant WHERE THE feck'S PAT!?! moments as opponents rampage down his flank.
Yeah you may be right about Evra. The other thing to consider, I suppose, is that for a team renowned for playing two proper wingers whenever possible, we very rarely see attacking on both wings. It's almost always one or the other. So why not just formalise that by leaving one wing to a mixture of Cleverley, Evra and Rooney. Together they can surely contribute enough width to make the formation viable.
Let's face it, on one wing we have Valencia or Nani, on form the two best wingers in the league (feck off Bale fans). And on the other we have Ashley Young. It's hardly Sophie's Choice.
Let's face it, on one wing we have Valencia or Nani, on form the two best wingers in the league (feck off Bale fans). And on the other we have Ashley Young. It's hardly Sophie's Choice.
That quote right here "Now that Jack Wilshere has returned to action, could he and Tom Cleverley fix England's broken midfield?" just shows the immense on the shoulders of Cleverley and Wilshere.
You can't expect kids to repair what has been broken for a decade or something.More than the players, the most important thing for England is to get a manager who will be willing to a certain style. I say this because I've Domenech ruined the national team at a team where the talents available were more numerous than now.
I thought he had a good game and was involved in some very good team play. Would like to see Ando and him in a couple of games as he seems to be rejuvenated of late.
True. But similarly the best manager in the world couldn't get us playing good football with a midfield of Barry, Milner and Gerrard. You need both. Much as I love Hodgson, and wish we could have had him instead of Capello, I still feel England's manager-hiring is a step behind their progress in getting some decent ballplayers into the team. Roy can see the value of players like Cleverley, Wilshere and Welbeck and the type of football we could play with them, but I'm not convinced he'll be able to implement it very well.
Totally agree. Quality young player, small but not one who is going to get bullied.
Yeah he saw red but Arsenal would certainly be doing a bit better if more players had a bit of fight like him.
Yep - there was a marked decline in his influence on the game after that, just didn't seem to be able to get involved in the same way.
He was also far too wide, hugging the touchline. A CM needs to be in central areas most of the time.
The thing I like most about Cleverley is that his first touch is always about what he's already decided to do with the ball, and what he's decided to do is nearly always a decet option, even if it's not often a spectacular one.
There's almost never any of this take a touch, then look up and decide what to do stuff, because he's already aware or comfortable with taking the ball so there's never any need. It means he can take the ball easily in tight areas and doesn't give opponents as much of a chance to organise or set themselves.
He's picked it up at least in part from Scholes I reckon...that said, Powell kind of has a similar knack/natural awareness about him aswell, from what I've seen anyway
In Cleverley's case I just think he needs to be a bit more clever in terms of his positioning. He runs around everywhere which is great, but it's a bit too much ball chasing and not quite enough positional intelligence/exploiting of space. This is the sort of thing that will only get better with time though.
There's almost never any of this take a touch, then look up and decide what to do stuff, because he's already aware or comfortable with taking the ball so there's never any need. It means he can take the ball easily in tight areas and doesn't give opponents as much of a chance to organise or set themselves.
He's picked it up at least in part from Scholes I reckon...that said, Powell kind of has a similar knack/natural awareness about him aswell, from what I've seen anyway
In Cleverley's case I just think he needs to be a bit more clever in terms of his positioning. He runs around everywhere which is great, but it's a bit too much ball chasing and not quite enough positional intelligence/exploiting of space. This is the sort of thing that will only get better with time though.
This is excellent from him.
Good display of awareness of his surroundings there
This is excellent from him.
Look how many players he sucks into him there, all because he doesn't give them time to set positionally so they have no choice but to commit. The great thing is that when they do close him in he still nearly always finds an out ball.
This is excellent from him.
It's his ability to move the ball in 1 touch that's key. At no stage in that gif does he take 2 touches and that's what takes the Arsenal midfield out of the equation. Had he taken a touch and looked up at any stage of that passage of play he'd have been shut down. That's what marks Clev out from what else we've got in the squad. When there are other players nearby him on the same wavelength the speed at which we can move the ball makes for some serious viewing.
He keeps it simple and uses his brain, once he gets experience under his belt he'll go from strength to strength.
Cleverley, Anderson, Welbeck and Rooney in the same side = tiki taka UTD style. In fairness to Young he joined in too at the start of last season.
More disciplined on Saturday, rarely out of position. More encouraged by that than anything he did or didn't do on the ball. We all know what he gives us in possession, it's what he's at when we're not in possession that will determine whether he'll end up as part of the solution to our midfield uncertainty. Himself and Carrick looked a lot more solid than last week, off colour opposition notwithstanding.
Kagawa could easily come under the same category. Van Persie aswell.
It's all starting to look like it's coming together too. No one's been able to live with us defensively since the second half of that Spurs game
It's all starting to look like it's coming together too. No one's been able to live with us defensively since the second half of that Spurs game
- Status