Fletcher has always showed bravery and determination.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
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The ease with which Sandro rounded him and blasted it in to the top corner wouldn't have had much to do with the instructions I'd say.
Granted that can happen to anyone on a given day but it's a bit symptomatic of how he's playing at the moment.
Hopefully it is just down to form but if it is it's been going on a long time now.
I was impressed with him when he broke into our first team squad, but these days he's quite ordinary. I simply don't think he's good enough to play for Manchester United week in and week out.
Almost handed Cardiff a goal and today got rounded by fecking Sandro. The lad's really not having the best of times.
Was really sad how sandro turned him inside out. This is fecking sandro we're talking about, not lionel messi.
I still hold out hope for Tom but he really needs to get his act together. Maybe extra hours in training working on his finishing/passing etc. Has regressed since the days of the 8-2 victory over the gooners.
Not really good enough at any aspect of midfield play to be a mains tarter at a club like United, the added responsibility has seen him shrink rather than shine.
I don't think he was really at fault for the Sandro goal. He was out of position and then scrambling to get back and provide some kind of defence.
Always hard to stop players from cutting back across you in that scenario, probably couldn't have done much else apart from foul him.
Always hard to stop players from cutting back across you in that scenario, probably couldn't have done much else apart from foul him.
I think a lot of people were excited that season. He had a good preseason and looked like he was going to make a real impact. Nolan is a cnut and Clev was unfortunate to pick up that injury at that time.
That said, Anderson looked good that preseason too. Neither has progressed much since.
I wouldn't consider selling him though, unless we buy 4 CMs which I doubt. Giggs will probably retire and Cleverley is still young and has talent. ,
Last year and this year he has a golden opportunity to establish himself, so far he's not stepped up at all.
Gibson was a much better player.
As is Anderson.
Shouldnt be at United now, just not developed the way we hoped. Hard to accept but has to be done. Lots of much younger players performing at a much higher level
As is Anderson.
Shouldnt be at United now, just not developed the way we hoped. Hard to accept but has to be done. Lots of much younger players performing at a much higher level
He has an extremely annoying habit of hoofing the ball away when we could start a good counter attack. Fair enough doing it in the dying moments when we are holding on to a win, but to do it when we are meant to be chasing a goal is unacceptable.
To be fair, that Sandro goal was utter class. Can't really pin blame on Clev for that imo, just a very good goal.
I just think the way our team is setup and the tactics we're using is making most of our attacking players look shit. Only Rooney and perhaps Carrick have had a run of good form so far this season. Our other attacking players have all really played below their normal standards. It's worrying.
Yep, and again, if there's one thing Cleverley lacks it's determination. Have you ever heard what the youth team coaches said about him? About his work ethic, how he's a proper United lad with how hard working he is. Very much in the mould of Fletcher.
You people see nothing of what he's like in training, what he's like every day, what he's even like as a person or footballer. You see 90 minutes now and again and write him off on the back of it. Admittedly fans will do that as we all like to have opinions and that's all we've got to go on, but to just write players off as ruthlessly as Cleverley gets written off really bugs me.
I think it's safe to say we need to majorly re-vamp the midfield. Cleverley simply isn't good enough, and Anderson hasn't lived up to his promise from when he first arrived. Giggs is 40 and can't go on forever, also Fletcher will never be the same again. Fellaini has been underwhelming, but he is still settling and I'm hopeful he will come good for us. Also, Carrick can't do it all on his own.
We need 2-3 top class midfielders IMO.
We need 2-3 top class midfielders IMO.
I miss having midfielders who can score.. Tom aint that player and sadly he was never United quality... We need to break the bank for a cm, anybody will do..
And yet in midweek, when we had a player capable of linking up the play, we put 5 past Bayer and our attackers looked on fire.
Surely Ando can do better ??
I think he meant break the bank like 40m on a midfielder. We need to put some serious money into getting players. We have this proud tradition of bringing young players through, and while I hope we don't completely lose sight of that, I would like to see us really invest in the squad and not be afraid to spend money. I'm not talking about 25-30m on a player, I'm talking 40m, maybe higher and really making a statement.
That one got me hearing Partridge in my head
back on point though - do you see the midfields of the top teams in Europe. Cleverley is 24. I honestly do not think he is good enough. If he improves dramatically everyone here who has rightly pointed out his poor form (and perhaps lack of ability) will be delighted. But I suspect that if we want to compete with the best we need a surgery in midfield. Carrick is 32 and currently our only good midfielder and Jones may develop nicely into a midfield enforcer, but the lack of ability in the middle puts enormous pressure on our wingers who more often than not are given the ball with 2 defenders in front of them (as our build up is often too slow) and the team wait for them (aka Valencia) to beat their men and provide a cross.
He has about 20 annoying habits.
Thing is I just don't see it with Cleverley, having a relatively limited skillset isn't a problem but he just seems to come up short when we need him to stand up. Too many times he just seems to vanish, so many times last year when the opposition gained the upper hand he couldn't keep up with the pace and this year he's low on confidence and just doesn't want to do anything seemingly. Jones comfortably better than him at the moment, Cleverley hasn't progressed how I thought he would.
I've said Anderson is better atleast 100 times. He just is.
I don't like the midfielder he's turning into. That's not what we saw a few years ago, and that's not what we need right now. Giggs in midweek displayed all the attacking qualities we're crying out for. Cleverley can't be content to keep things ticking over. When did he become so afraid of a forward pass? We have others in the team who are willing to take the difficult options and attempt to pass in and behind defences. That stretches the opposition and creates space for our attackers to operate in.
He needs to grow some balls and be the player who dictates the game for us. Passing and moving into space is something he used to be very good at. If a 40 year old can do it then he has no excuses.
He needs to grow some balls and be the player who dictates the game for us. Passing and moving into space is something he used to be very good at. If a 40 year old can do it then he has no excuses.
Agree Jake. I'd rather see Anderson play in there. At least he drives forward and puts some urgency into the attacking play.
I understand, but sometimes it's not necessarily about who's better on paper, or even who the better individual footballer is. If the team plays well with a certain player in, especially in such a pivotal position, then I'm happy. Jones and Cleverley showed something today. They're not as good as Carrick but they laid the foundations for the likes of Kagawa and Rooney to shine. I thought in that first half in particular we played well. Spurs didn't have much luck in midfield.That one got me hearing Partridge in my head
back on point though - do you see the midfields of the top teams in Europe. Cleverley is 24. I honestly do not think he is good enough. If he improves dramatically everyone here who has rightly pointed out his poor form (and perhaps lack of ability) will be delighted. But I suspect that if we want to compete with the best we need a surgery in midfield. Carrick is 32 and currently our only good midfielder and Jones may develop nicely into a midfield enforcer, but the lack of ability in the middle puts enormous pressure on our wingers who more often than not are given the ball with 2 defenders in front of them (as our build up is often too slow) and the team wait for them (aka Valencia) to beat their men and provide a cross.
With regards to competing amongst the best, remember the Madrid game? Possibly the best midfield in the world and we held them well for two and a half hours. Nani got sent off and it all went to shit. But we did compete with them. And Cleverley played.
I remember that game well and consider it one of SAF's best ever tactical performance. And I've seen Cleverley, in the past, play well. But this season he is a definite weak spot. I've said before that he looks good when we play well, and he keeps things "ticking". But that really is it. When we play average or worse, he does not stand up. Today he was as average as most of our players, even though we did control that 1st half. Jones is growing fast in midfield, but Cleverley is regressing. That's pretty worrying. Hence, I'd actually like to see him go on loan when we get a better player in there (i.e. in January).
Would be interested to know what instructions he's given by Moyes and what his team mates think of his game..
Maybe he requires a quick passing style with high pressing, with a slow build-up he looks lost
He is a decent midfield 3 player...but an absolute liability in a midfield 2
Combination of both, perhaps. There's nothing wrong with keeping it ticking as such. But at the moment we could use a player in the middle who can offer something beyond this - and Cleverley doesn't seem capable of that at all. The Fletcher comparison is apt in terms of how impatient fans generally are - not least when it comes to midfielders, many of whom don't reach their true level until they're past 25. But in terms of style it's not very apt: My worry with Fletcher was that he looked out of his depth technically and tactically at one point - there wasn't anything wrong with his attitude, you could see he had plenty of fire in him. Cleverley looks competent enough - he just doesn't seem to have much drive to his game. And that's more worrying, actually.
Again, you can always use a "keep-it-ticking" player in a squad - but as a starting man in a midfield two, such a player is of limited value.
We didn't though. We had one shot in target from a mistake by them. They had 2 clear chances to score when they were 1-0. They were much better than us in the first half (and in overall) and dominated the midfield battle. Dembele and Paulinho in particular were miles better than our midfield
They are no-where near the team with the best midfield in the world. Barca, Bayern, Juve and possibly Dortmund have a better midfield than them. It was also one of the best Sir Alex tactical performances. If I am not mistaken Cleverley played only in the second game, so pretty much we held them with Cleverley in the team for around 60 minutes.
Based on what exactly?
I just miss having proper midfielders who we can rely on.
Alonso, Modric, Ozil, Di Maria, Ronaldo. Yeah, Juve are dicking all over that.
Usually these days in the caf, by midfield people mean cental midfield. And Juve has a betetr central midfield than Madrid. If you add Ronaldo - who is much more a striker than a midfielder - obviously it changes.
I remember United fan who complained about our midfield even in 2009. Despite having the best midfielder in the world at that time, Cristiano Ronaldo
That's fair if you want to talk about central midfield, but it's still much better than anything the PL had to offer at that time. Two of Khedira/Alonso/Modric. Held them well.
I've no doubt Cleverley tried his best, but he just is not good enough sadly. He is too lightweight to win tackles and be effective defensively, while he offers little going forward other than the occasional pass. I was expecting him to perform better, particularly with Jones as his partner. Sadly, he was more of a passenger and had a really poor game. We may have to rely on Mr Anderson to step up now.
Wigan was his level.
Really does look a shadow of the confident player that came through a couple of years ago. Looks scared of his own shadow thesdays. Sad to see really.
To be fair when Moyes does get another CM or two of his own, I don't think we will be seeing much of Cleverley any more. At best he will have a Nicky Butt 'filler' role.
I do wish Cleverley the best, but the amount of times the opposition has walked straight through him this season is ridiculous.
I do wish Cleverley the best, but the amount of times the opposition has walked straight through him this season is ridiculous.
Cleverly is shockingly average. Usually midfielders have 1 or 2 outstanding qualities like passing, scoring, tackling, reading of the game, dribbling, setpieces anything. Even Gibson who is supposedly inferior could score a screamer every 50 games or so and right now I'd rather have him in the team if he was still with us. Cleverley's 1 quality of keeping possession is not about keeping control of the game but due to a total lack of ambition. It would be understandable if he was being asked to play the Busquets role.
Very average player doesn't hurt the opposition going forward and isn't exactly great defensively be a good 4-5th choice midfielder for us but should be nowhere near our best starting 11.
I remember the Cleverley v Wilshere days.
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