I still think Giggs can come good, he's definitely got potential.
Remember, Darren Clarke didn't win his first major until he was 2 years older than Giggs is now.
Tom Cleverley | 2012-14 Performances
- Thread starter Bebe
- Start date
- Status
I still think Giggs can come good, he's definitely got potential.
Remember, Darren Clarke didn't win his first major until he was 2 years older than Giggs is now.
Yea I'm a Giggsy lover anyway so I hope he's still around next season. And naturally, I think that Moyes is well aware that our midfield still needs some major patching and he'll eventually get a good midfielder, if not in January then definitely in the summer.
Marginally better than Gibson? Do you think that Gibson is better cm than Fellaini then?
You really do spout a load of bollocks.
I would have no problem in Cleverley, Anderson and Fellaini all leaving us as soon as possible and being replaced with better.
In reality, Fellaini will obviously not leave given our outlay, Cleverley is a listed conservation property given he is an academy product. Anderson, it seems, will go. The squad needed two quality midfielders this summer, a ball-playing and a ball-winning. I'm not convinced any of those problems have been solved.
That said, of the three midfielders I listed, I think Cleverley is of the most use to us. He is competent, can fill gaps etc. He usually delivers a minimum standard at least.
In reality, Fellaini will obviously not leave given our outlay, Cleverley is a listed conservation property given he is an academy product. Anderson, it seems, will go. The squad needed two quality midfielders this summer, a ball-playing and a ball-winning. I'm not convinced any of those problems have been solved.
That said, of the three midfielders I listed, I think Cleverley is of the most use to us. He is competent, can fill gaps etc. He usually delivers a minimum standard at least.
We need a box to box and a fabregas/modric type imo. Happy with Fellaini he will be a good asset once bedded in but we could up the standard of Cleverley and Anderson.
Do you think Cleverley is better than Fellaini then?
The most annoying part about his performance yestersay was when he gave the ball to Evra/Carrick/Kagawa who came deep or Rooney, he'd often sprint past them and the Stoke midfield, looking for some sort of Xavi-esque pass through the lines. When this inevitably didnt come, he stood up in the forward position and ambled around a bit before coming back to get a realistic pass.
I still think he's a better alternative to Anderson and possible Fellaini(havent seen enough of him to judge fully).
I still think he's a better alternative to Anderson and possible Fellaini(havent seen enough of him to judge fully).
If Cleverley was to leave, does anyone think a) any other big club would snap him up and b) would losing him ever come back to haunt us... now ask yourself the same about a number of players in this United squad and the answer is quite telling..
I don't think he's a better player, but I think he's a better fit at United than Fellaini will be. I'd love to be proved wrong but I dont think Fellaini will ever be seen as a good signing.
Watching them playing just for United, without a doubt that Cleverley looks like much better player.
I'm thinking more and more that we should give the diamond a go. Brutally put we improve our shite midfield by putting more of the available shite in there: Play Carrick in the deep role, Fellani and Cleverley in front of him and, say, Kagawa as the tip. We are then free to let Rooney and RVP do their stuff up front. Alternatively, play Rooney as the tip and RVP/Chicharito up front. Adnan can play as the tip too. In the past the main argument against the diamond has been the state of our wingers. Now the same could be said to apply, albeit in a negative sense: Our wingers aren't working. So drop them.
I don't know. Could be worth a shot. The fact is that none of the candidates for the "Carrick's partner" part has looked...the part so far. So, use them both. Get some more bodies in there. It's not an ideal solution, nor one I would like to see us go for long-term, but right now I think it could make us somewhat tighter. Our back four hasn't settled by any stretch either. They look like they could use some extra protection.
I don't know. Could be worth a shot. The fact is that none of the candidates for the "Carrick's partner" part has looked...the part so far. So, use them both. Get some more bodies in there. It's not an ideal solution, nor one I would like to see us go for long-term, but right now I think it could make us somewhat tighter. Our back four hasn't settled by any stretch either. They look like they could use some extra protection.
A Midfield which contains so many non-performers makes so sense. We're lacking penetration as it is, a diamond would not be the solution to our problems.
Well, maybe not. But if we are to retain the present system we need a dramatic upsurge in form on the part of our wingers/attackers, making us able to kill off matches through offensive superiority, because we look very frail in the middle, especially with Cleverley as Carrick's foil.
Nope. Fellaini is better than Cleverley and I don't think that Fellaini is that good.
Sorry what I was meant to say was I don't mind the diamond, it is just that Januzaj is probably our best attacking outlet right now and playing alot of medicore midfielders at the same time doesn't seem sensible. A diamond should be used if you have quality interchangeable midfielders who can dribble, pass, tackle etc.. we have alot of those qualities missing at the moment. It would be a very static and crappy diamond with those players.
Yes - I don't strongly disagree with that. My simple thought is just that one good and one mediocre midfielder is more vulnerable than one good and two mediocre ones: It's far too simplistic, I know. But at the moment I would prefer a system with more than two in the middle of the park, form and mediocrity notwithstanding: The diamond, a 4-3-3 - something which leaves us a bit less fragile in purely defensive terms.
You are basing that on his Everton or United's form? He's showed nothing at United yet to be considered better than Cleverley.
Of course I am basing it on Everton's form. He has played about 5 games for us so a bit difficult to judge him only in the games for us. He has been shocking against S'oton but Cleverley was even worse yesterday.
Yesterday was probably the worst I've seen Cleverley play but he's still a good player to have in the squad.
This is our problem imo. Too many people who are content to have average under performing players take a place up in our squad. Cleverley has had his chance and has not taken it, that is the most telling comparison I can find between him and Gibson. Despite pretty poor midfield competition and few other options, they both failed to nail down a place.
He was terrible yesterday, and those saying he is a better option that Fellaini need to take a look at themselves. Fellaini has been castigated for being far better than Cleverley was yesterday. Cleverly is lightweight, unadventurous, provides little creativity and goal threat and and offers even less defensively. If he isn't good enough for the first team, and we are a poorer team with him in our midfield, i struggle to see how that somehow qualifies him as a good squad player. He isn't good enough, it's as simple as that. If he was he would have staked his claim by now. He and Anderson will be the casualties once January comes around. Their days are numbered in my view, or at least they should be. They have both had their chance and not taken it, we now need better players who can make a real difference to the first team.
Was he really that bad yesterday? He was decent but struggled with the physicality of the opposition and a lack of movement among the front players
Well, I think it's unfair comparing them like that, same as it's unfair judging Fellaini after few performances. People on here would probably rate Cleverley much higher if he was Everton player for example, it's always like that.
A friend of mine is ADAMANT he is quality and that he is severely underrated.
He had a terrible game yesterday. But he has been good before that. I think he will prove to be pretty good midfielder for us.
Agree with this. That was the worst Cleverley has played since the F.A. Cup tie against Chelsea last season. He was poor. Was it injury or eye off the ball? Who knows but he's picked it up after similarly bad performances and will do so again.
Honestly, I used to have more faith in where Cleverley could go as a player. In 2011/12 I genuinely thought he'd go on to be a big, big player for us but his development, to my eyes, has stalled. He's not playing with the self-belief or initiative that we saw that season and every in the big matches last season where he was good e.g. City (A), Arsenal (H) he didn't seem to have the fearlessness to attack the space like when he first broke into the team.
Needs to learn from Aaron Ramsey and show there is life after a big injury that disrupts your break through.
At least if Carrick had been in the form of last year, it would help Clev settle down a bit and play better.. and Carrick's a rolls royce but will take several attempts to start up. 
I think he just cannot handle it when Carrick's somewhat out of sorts too, too big an ask for him.
We need one dependable centre mid who can handle the pressure, keep possession and distribute, and make the defence more reassured. We tried getting one this summer but went for hopeless targets and it didn't work out. Instead got Afro circus who's himself completely overawed at the moment ( and IMO he never played at his best as a DM at Everton) .
Self-belief - yes, the lack of that's whats affecting the whole team now, not just the midfield, but everywhere you look, except perhaps Januzaj and DDG. We've just not got over the post-Fergie hangover. When we play we have that unease of things not being the way they should be, or something.. and some kind of fear of not being able to cope since the big man's retired. Well at least that's what it looks like; no idea what's really happening. You could say we were zombie passing anyways since the last 3 years or so, and Fergie just held it together.
I think he just cannot handle it when Carrick's somewhat out of sorts too, too big an ask for him.We need one dependable centre mid who can handle the pressure, keep possession and distribute, and make the defence more reassured. We tried getting one this summer but went for hopeless targets and it didn't work out. Instead got Afro circus who's himself completely overawed at the moment ( and IMO he never played at his best as a DM at Everton) .
Self-belief - yes, the lack of that's whats affecting the whole team now, not just the midfield, but everywhere you look, except perhaps Januzaj and DDG. We've just not got over the post-Fergie hangover. When we play we have that unease of things not being the way they should be, or something.. and some kind of fear of not being able to cope since the big man's retired. Well at least that's what it looks like; no idea what's really happening. You could say we were zombie passing anyways since the last 3 years or so, and Fergie just held it together.
I think he's become too comfortable. He hasn't had any real quality competition for a starting berth and consequently he's not been pulling up trees and striving to improve his game. He's been pathetic since the back end of last season, a real letdown and its really disappointing to see someone who's been afforded a great opportunity consistently flatter to deceive. The sooner Moyes buys some real quality the sooner we will see if Cleverley really has the balls to stake his place. I tend to agree with apotheosis in that right now it's very simple....he just isn't good enough.
I merely look at our main rivals in the Premier League and Europe and ask "would he start for those sides?" I think the answer is obvious. Even Jordan Henderson is playing and developing better than Cleverley, or at least making the most of whatever talent he's been given.
I merely look at our main rivals in the Premier League and Europe and ask "would he start for those sides?" I think the answer is obvious. Even Jordan Henderson is playing and developing better than Cleverley, or at least making the most of whatever talent he's been given.
He's better than some give him credit for, but he certainly needs to up his game if he wants to stay.
I used to think so. 07 made the point that he used to play with less fear, but youngsters can do that as there is little expectation upon them. Experienced players have a responsibility to produce every week, and that sorts out the men from the boys. Cleverley just hasn't kicked on, he has lost much of that fearlessness and dynamism of his youth and now looks tentative and unadventurous in comparison.
i think he has some talent but is it enough? Will he get the time to kick on? It's likely both he and Anderson will fall further down the pecking order when the transfer window comes around. Would anyone argue against that really? We need better players than them, simple as that. Whoever we buy should be ahead of Cleverley and Anderson. They are not creative enough, don't score enough goals to be attacking mids, their passing range and ability to make space is not good enough to be playmaker, and neither are particularly competent defensively. Bottom line is whoever we get will be either a better attacking option, playmaking option or defensive option. I would be certainly disappointed if they wasn't! Fellaini was brought in as more of a defensive option, and while he is clearly better there, he is also far more of a goalscoring threat than Anderson and Cleverly combined.
Both players are talented, but they just haven't done enough over an extended period, despite very favourable circumstances for them to stake their claim in an aging midfield with few options available. How would they have fared competing for a spot in Chelsea's midfield, where they have about 20 players competing for 2 or 3 places?
I used to think so. 07 made the point that he used to play with less fear, but youngsters can do that as there is little expectation upon them. Experienced players have a responsibility to produce every week, and that sorts out the men from the boys. Cleverley just hasn't kicked on, he has lost much of that fearlessness and dynamism of his youth and now looks tentative and unadventurous in comparison.
i think he has some talent but is it enough? Will he get the time to kick on? It's likely both he and Anderson will fall further down the pecking order when the transfer window comes around. Would anyone argue against that really? We need better players than them, simple as that. Whoever we buy should be ahead of Cleverley and Anderson. They are not creative enough, don't score enough goals to be attacking mids, their passing range and ability to make space is not good enough to be playmaker, and neither are particularly competent defensively. Bottom line is whoever we get will be either a better attacking option, playmaking option or defensive option. I would be certainly disappointed if they wasn't! Fellaini was brought in as more of a defensive option, and while he is clearly better there, he is also far more of a goalscoring threat than Anderson and Cleverly combined.
Both players are talented, but they just haven't done enough over an extended period, despite very favourable circumstances for them to stake their claim in an aging midfield with few options available. How would they have fared competing for a spot in Chelsea's midfield, where they have about 20 players competing for 2 or 3 places?
True this. Not much time for them to kick on - in fact, the time is right now. Right now, when the place in the team is up for grabs. Scholes gone, Fletch out, Fellaini misfiring, nobody ahead of them. Right now, if they play well, the place is theirs. But every week it's a merry-go-round, we try each and then they disappoint, or do well in one match and suddenly go shite the next.
Yeah, If they still perform badly, well, come summer we will, and should, replace them IMO.
If by everyone you mean Cleverley, Anderson, Young and Buttner than yes.
was not too long ago Cleverley and Anderson were helping the team play magical one touch football. Sure we were conceding goals but we were scoring for fun too. A lot of it is also confidence. With the change in management and backroom staff, some of our players will be adjusting to tactics and training methods.
I still feel hopeful about these players...perhaps because I have always liked their playing styles. For now though we need someone who will take the game by the scruff of the neck. We don't have anyone available currently which is reflected by the league position...unless Rooney is willing to sacrifice his favoured position.
I still feel hopeful about these players...perhaps because I have always liked their playing styles. For now though we need someone who will take the game by the scruff of the neck. We don't have anyone available currently which is reflected by the league position...unless Rooney is willing to sacrifice his favoured position.
I thought he did well against Sunderland in that he showed a good work rate and made some good tackles. Yesterday was a different type of game and one where a midfielders intelligence is required to help the team. Unfortunately, he came up short. I'm starting to think he just lacks that intelligence to play in midfield, which is about the only role he can play for us. When you see what Carrick, Scholes and Giggs have done in that position in recent years, the difference is astronomical.
And Moyes and Fellaini and everyone else, you're probably the most negative poster on here. All I see you do is bitch and moan
I think I'm in the minority here but I still see it in Cleverley. I just think he needs to find his confidence to be the go to guy and make things happen. I don't know what's happened with him, but he's definitely regressed.
I still think he has the potential, he made 1 pass in the box yesterday which he found himself offside and I think that epitomises what he's about, it's just a shame he doesn't do it more often. I hope with a run of games he can get his confidence back to start imposing himself more.
I still think he has the potential, he made 1 pass in the box yesterday which he found himself offside and I think that epitomises what he's about, it's just a shame he doesn't do it more often. I hope with a run of games he can get his confidence back to start imposing himself more.
The one for Kagawa? Was a good spot.
I agree I think he just needs the confidence to impose himself on games. He moves well, as a passer he's techincally sound, he's an intelligent user of the ball and has good awareness and link up with his team mates. He's just too willing to let games pass him by at the moment without him being the one to make his influence known, but I think that goes for more than 1 of our players.
Yeah Kagawa, I didn't actually complete that sentence. I just hope he can find his confidence to do that more often.
- Status