Tom Cleverley | 2011/12 Performances

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People need to stop over analyzing
He is very good. Not messi, not shit. A very good young player who might be a bit inconsistent.
Having him in the squad improves it. Relying on him to win us games singlehandedly is unrealistic.

We are lucky to have good talented players coming through the academy. Enjoy it.
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Cleverley is actually already an excellent midfielder. You would think from some of the comments in this thread that Cleverley was the reason we lost to Bilbao or that losing to the Basques was as bad as losing to Palace. Lets just remember their full back took a massive dump on Ferdinand and Evans. Wayne Rooney, who nobody can argue is a bad player, was virtually anonymous against them and had to craft a goal out of nothing cos he couldn't play his way into the game. Bilbao aren't amateurs.

I'm not saying his performance is entirely to blame for us being outgunned but I also think, having watched Cleverley on the wing, that his performance on Thursday night was typical of his performances from out wide. I can only remember one really good showing at a the highest level from Cleverley as a winger and that was for Wigan vs Liverpool (I think it was?) last season. Cleverley likes to be on the ball when he's starved of possession he tends to try and force the issue when he finally gets it and that leads to mistakes he normally wouldn't make. That's what tends to happen when he plays out wide, that's what happened Thursday night...

...and even on Thursday as has been noted he showed a flash of his true talent when he picked up the ball centrally carried it 30 yards played a wall pass with Wazza and threaded Young through for a chance.

The lad's got the goods. No doubt in his next appearance he'll be back in centre midfield doing what he does best and the tone of this thread will flip again.
 
It does get a bit annoying when say, Poster A hypes clev to the extreme (before the game at athletic), and poster C who has been waiting for clev to prov himself chimes in after the game with he's lacking experience and so on and now the two get bunched together as the same poster. Happens a lot on the caf.

Indeed.
 
Yes but did Ash G think differently before. Your posts suggests that people have changed their mind from one extreme to another whereas the reality seems to be that some hold one view at one extreme, some hold the middle ground and others are at the other end. Give me an example of specific posters who have actually gone from one extreme to the other.

It's fairly obvious what koroux (and others) are saying. It's the changing consensus. The general vibe of the comments in the thread. He was getting over-hyped and now he's getting unfair criticism. Long term fans of his contribute to most of the hype, long-term critics are more vocal after a poor game. This gives the impression of drastic shifts in opinion based on very little. You're the one trying to break it down to individuals flip-flopping. That was never the point (a point first made by Ole's Toe Poke iirc)
 
Good point, I'm a big fan of his but I didn't have much to say after the last game. I'm not sure what people expect out of someone playing their first game on the right wing possibly since his days in the reserves, if ever. He's been a LB, LW, AM and CM but that was his first game at RW that I know of.

Of all the players we have, he's the most suited to a quick passing and pressing game, ala Bielsa, so I think people should be excited, and want more players like Cleverley.
 
It's fairly obvious what koroux (and others) are saying. It's the changing consensus. The general vibe of the comments in the thread. He was getting over-hyped and now he's getting unfair criticism. Long term fans of his contribute to most of the hype, long-term critics are more vocal after a poor game. This gives the impression of drastic shifts in opinion based on very little. You're the one trying to break it down to individuals flip-flopping. That was never the point (a point first made by Ole's Toe Poke iirc)

But opinions haven't shifted and consensus hasn't changed. Korouk and Ole are suggesting there is. People have pretty much held the sane opinion throughout. That's the point and it's a false one regularly thrown around the forum.
 
He probably gave the ball away 75 times on Thursday, but it's his full game back so i do not know all the criticism of him was all about. Tom will play a crucial part in our run-in when Scholes need to be rested
 
Glad he's back fit again, hopefully he can stay fit until the end of the season. He did play poorly on thursday but I'd put that down to him being out of position to be honest, I have no idea why Sir Alex would put him on the wing, and Park in the middle when both play much better in the other positions. They both looked pretty lost on the night. I wouldn't take anything from that performance to say he might be inconsistent or he's overrated. Take Modric for example when we played spurs, he looked completely lost on the wing, and didn't play well at all. Everyone knows when he plays in his proper position he is a class player.

I think once he gets match fit again and gets a few more games under his belt he'll be a very key player for the run in, he won't be a starter all the time but I think him and scholesy will rotate positions because Scholes can't start every game, but when he is fit I think he should start.
 
But opinions haven't shifted and consensus hasn't changed. Korouk and Ole are suggesting there is. People have pretty much held the sane opinion throughout. That's the point and it's a false one regularly thrown around the forum.

Yes, the consenus on him changed. From overwhelming positivity to much more critical and less optimistic. Read the thread.
 
...and even on Thursday as has been noted he showed a flash of his true talent when he picked up the ball centrally carried it 30 yards played a wall pass with Wazza and threaded Young through for a chance.
.

That was fantastic!!!
 
Yes, the consenus on him changed. From overwhelming positivity to much more critical and less optimistic. Read the thread.

That doesn't prove the consensus of opinion has changed, just that the balance of those posting has. 50% of people can think he's the next best thing and 50% can have doubts. Early season the first 50% may have been dominating the thread but less so now while the other 50% may feel more compelled to air their views now than they were then. That's why I asked for examples.
 
Which was exactly what i said in my last post.

You're the one demanding individual examples of people changing their mind. That was never the point. People were just commenting on the content of the thread.

No. You said the consensus had changed. The consensus can still be the same but people just aren't stating it.

That is your interpretation on what they meant. I have mine. They are welcome to give their own interpretation of what they meant.
 
Pogue explained in better words what I meant acnumber9 (English is still a big problem for me).Like I said I ain't into the thing to provide evidence with quotes.Some do, I just don't.If you think what I said is complete bullshit then so be it.There is only so much convincing I can try.
 
Some people will reckon he's injured again so i'm saying that he has travelled with the team to Wolverhampton.

He's played 90 minutes on Thursday for the first time since September.......that's probably the reason he isn't in the 18-man squad.
 
Manchester United midfielder Tom Cleverley is anxious to avoid the tag of being injury prone.

Cleverley looked like being one of the stars of the season after making such an excellent start to the campaign.

Unfortunately, the 22-year-old injured a foot at Bolton in September and was then just two games into his comeback when he hurt an ankle at Everton that ruled him out for a further three-and-a-half months.

Even then it was not the end for Cleverley's problems as he picked up another foot injury on Europa League duty against Ajax that condemned him to another fortnight on the sidelines.

Now the Bradford-raised midfielder is back and keen to play a central role in the Premier League title run-in.

"It has been a bit stop-start," he told MUTV.

"I don't want to get the tag of being injury prone, I have just been a bit unlucky.

"The knock I got against Ajax was just something else compared to what I have been out for the rest of the season with.

"Now I am fully ready."

On a couple of occasions it has seemed as though Cleverley was about to gatecrash England's Euro 2012 plans.

His relative lack of appearances mean Cleverley might have to shelve that idea.

However, he is eligible for the Olympic squad later in the year and there is also the little matter of a first championship medal, which will be secured if United win all their remaining matches.

It is all new for Cleverley of course but he does take strength from the vast experience of others in the Red Devils dressing room.

"It does help that others have done it all before," he said.

"It gives young players confidence when you have guys who have 15 or 20 years' experience playing next to you.

"The mix of youth, hunger and enthusiasm for your first and second medal, with the experience of 10, 11, 12 is just right."


An element of freshness is important, with even Sir Alex Ferguson believing his players are going to benefit from a change of scenery having opted to take his squad to St Andrews for a couple of nights.

The location might appeal to Cleverley, a keen golfer.

But he recognises there are more important matters to attend to.

And to that end, he feels Paul Scholes' presence could turn out to be crucial.

"I can learn a lot from Paul," he said.

"He has been the best midfielder in the country for the last 15 years.

"Like Xavi with Barcelona at the minute, so Paul is to us.

"He is a great player and gives me good competition for a place in the side."

A relentless trophy-gatherer like Ferguson is unlikely to let his players rest on their laurels.

But if they were considering that as an option, Cleverley believes the memory of that 6-1 annihilation by Manchester City in October will ensure it does not happen.

"It is good for the city that both teams are doing fantastically well," he said.

"It does increase the pressure and does seem to be the only thing anyone is talking about right now.

"It has been massively competitive all season and even though we won there in the FA Cup, we still remember the 6-1.

"Hopefully we can win at their place and secure the title."
 
Anyone else think we'd have created more chances if Cleverley was our most advanced CM, instead of Jones?

That's a given.

We'd probably be more open though, which was what Fergie was trying to avoid, to great success.
 
He's not injured again, is he? In regards to Pogba being on the bench ahead of him.
 
If he wasn't on the bench then he must be injured again. This season is a bit of a write off for him at the moment, but least he can say he established himself in the first team squad to an extent.
 
If he wasn't on the bench then he must be injured again. This season is a bit of a write off for him at the moment, but least he can say he established himself in the first team squad to an extent.

I'm not sure about that. He played 90 minutes for the reserves when he last didn't make the bench for the first-team.
 
Eased into it surely?

What we don't need is another midfield option vaporized due to him being thrown in when we doesn't really need him to be.
 
I'm not sure about that. He played 90 minutes for the reserves when he last didn't make the bench for the first-team.

Yeah it seems like Cleverley isn't really part of Fergie's plans at the moment. Pogba is closer to the first team set up at the moment and seems to be the first choice midfield sub from the younger lot.
 
Pogba is playing just because of his contract situation, nothing else. Okay, he would get probably some minutes, but that's it. Cleverley is far more experienced, matured and by miles better player at the moment.
 
Anyone else think we'd have created more chances if Cleverley was our most advanced CM, instead of Jones?

I'm sure we would have, but then we may have created more with Welbeck over Hernandez

Sometimes you have to lose something to gain something, and in this case, we lost creativity and quick passing to give us more protection defending set-pieces
 
Pogba is playing just because of his contract situation, nothing else. Okay, he would get probably some minutes, but that's it. Cleverley is far more experienced, matured and by miles better player at the moment.

He's also after a few injuries and hasn't played much football since September. Probably too rusty to make a difference now in our season.
 
He's also after a few injuries and hasn't played much football since September. Probably too rusty to make a difference now in our season.

a shame too as he started off so well. it wasn't just him but United was a much different animal with him in the lineup.
 
Yeah it seems like Cleverley isn't really part of Fergie's plans at the moment. Pogba is closer to the first team set up at the moment and seems to be the first choice midfield sub from the younger lot.

That can only be the case if Cleverley isn't match or still seems rusty post injuries. Otherwise based on what we've seen of the two this season, Cleverley is way way ahead of Pogba as of now.
 
That can only be the case if Cleverley isn't match or still seems rusty post injuries. Otherwise based on what we've seen of the two this season, Cleverley is way way ahead of Pogba as of now.

I don't know if I agree with that. Cleverley has earned more starts and meaningful minutes, but has only made 4 more appearances then Pogba.
 
I don't know if I agree with that. Cleverley has earned more starts and meaningful minutes, but has only made 4 more appearances then Pogba.

My point was regarding impact and level of performances rather than quantity.

Fergie hailed cleverley's impact on our side as one he hasn't seen for a long time at united.from a young player.
 
My point was regarding impact and level of performances rather than quantity.

Fergie hailed cleverley's impact on our side as one he hasn't seen for a long time at united.from a young player.

Fergie routinely does that to build player confidence. I remember a few years back he said Welbeck was ready to become a England regular and he was still quite raw.

SAF talks the young lads up because he knows the positive reinforcement will help their game.
 
  • People need to stop over analyzing
  • He is very good.
  • Not messi, not shit.
  • A very good young player who might be a bit inconsistent.
  • Having him in the squad improves it.
  • Relying on him to win us games singlehandedly is unrealistic.
  • We are lucky to have good talented players coming through the academy. Enjoy it.

plus one.

bulleting out because formatting makes everyone believe things more 14% of the time.

have to feel unlucky for Tom as well...he's even said he feels guilty over the unlucky number of niggles/injuries he's had.
 
Fergie routinely does that to build player confidence. I remember a few years back he said Welbeck was ready to become a England regular and he was still quite raw.

SAF talks the young lads up because he knows the positive reinforcement will help their game.

In Cleverley's case, his comments make complete sense, though. His impact on theway we played was incredible. Fergie does do balanced appraisals as well, you know.
 
In Cleverley's case, his comments make complete sense, though. His impact on theway we played was incredible. Fergie does do balanced appraisals as well, you know.

I don't know if it was his impact on the way we played which was incredible, or the fact we were incredible at the start of the season and that resulted in him looking like a player who had such impact.

There's a difference there.

I'm not saying he's not had impact. Just that SAF will single out young players for praise when reality is that it was a team effort which saw us start the season better prepared, fitter and sharper then any other team and the results showed this.

So...is Fergie appraisals balanced. I don't know...how do you define 'balanced'? If balanced is being heavily biased towards Manchester United and saying things with the purpose of advancing the players and team then yes...he's balanced.
 
Fergie routinely does that to build player confidence. I remember a few years back he said Welbeck was ready to become a England regular and he was still quite raw.

SAF talks the young lads up because he knows the positive reinforcement will help their game.

Your point would carry a bit more weight if you used an example who wasn't currently a first-team player for United and set to travel with England to the Euros.

Fergie talks up all of his players - as do all managers - but it's unusual for him to talk up youngsters as much as he has done Cleverley and Welbeck. He obviously has very high hopes for both of them.
 
I don't know if it was his impact on the way we played which was incredible, or the fact we were incredible at the start of the season and that resulted in him looking like a player who had such impact.

There's a difference there.

I'm not saying he's not had impact. Just that SAF will single out young players for praise when reality is that it was a team effort which saw us start the season better prepared, fitter and sharper then any other team and the results showed this.

So...is Fergie appraisals balanced. I don't know...how do you define 'balanced'? If balanced is being heavily biased towards Manchester United and saying things with the purpose of advancing the players and team then yes...he's balanced.

No I don't think he's heavily biased. That would point to a delusion. He'll back and defend his players always like all good managers do and sometimes say what he has to so as to get a desired result/impact but its not to the extent that everytime he comments on his own players we have to take it as a rawk like assessment of said player.

Basically I'm not going to devalue every Fergie comment using that reasoning. Fair enough if you believe it applies in this particular case but I don't see. Cleverley imo had a very direct and noticeable impact on us that backs up his claims.
 
I think we play better when Cleverley plays. Sure, I might not have the statistical base to prove anything there (more's the pity) but it's what I've seen. He's been part of some of the best looking moves we've made this season - some of the nicest play in years - and if he can stay fit the only way is up. I think he'll make a huge contribution to us next year.
 
This thread is hilarious in earlier parts of the season. People hailing Cleverley as world-class and some sort of messiah to our midfield, whilst at the same time bashing an injured Michael Carrick and claiming he won't contribute enough to our midfield :lol:
 
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