Toaster Toes Timo Werner | Tottenham Player

Zehner said:
See. Lukaku is by no means the type of striker I like. If I was to assemble a squad, Lukaku would be far away fro being considered - now, during his United time and before that. However, looking past preferences, one has to admit he's doing great at Inter and he's had games in which he proved his technique is excellent. Just watch his highlights of last weeks match vs. Inter - and it's not his first game like that. There's no way a striker pulling off such dribbles and first touch passes has a weak technique. Simple as that. He might have done bad at United and his touches might not have been as good as they are currently for Milan but that doesn't change what he's showing right at the moment.

And the same goes for Werner. Arguing a player that scored those two stunners against Southampton just a few weeks ago is nothing but a pace merchant is just ridiculous. It comes across as if you've already made your opinion and just ignore evidence to the contrary.
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I just don't think technique is something that changes drastically in a player especially once they get past a certain age. What I will say is Lukaku now looks leaner and fitter (like his Everton days) and that will help him more generally in terms of his movements and balance which of course ties into the technique. That being said Lukaku is one of the weakest 'top' strikers in world football when compared in this aspect. If he wants to be world class then he has to be compared to the likes of Kane, Lewandowski, Aguero and in comparison to those players, Lukaku is genuinely a donkey. He regularly miscontrols, he's not got tight dribbling and his passing can be really inconsistent. Overall Its clear you just rate him far higher than me.

On Werner a poster above summarised him well, he's a threat but at the same time he isn't the best technician, he's not the best passer and his finishing leaves plenty to be desired. His best attribute is without a doubt his pace and intensity which on its own is a weapon but again that leaves him someway off the best players in the league. I've actually watched loads of Chelsea this season (god knows why!) and he hasn't impressed me once which is exactly what I used to think for Germany. That's not me making up my mind already, I just find on the eye test he doesn't fit the bill. I'm happy to admit when I get things wrong and if he improves and goes up a level then fair play to him.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
One can argue that Martial has more potential than Werner, but his performances yet aren't near what Werner has shown throughout his career.
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Martial is already 25 year old who is on £250,000 per week. I probably won't use potential to evaluate him anymore.
 
He's definitely missed some sitters, but then again he's scored some very hard chances. Also he's got himself into the position for those easy chances, the goals will come. In any case 8 goals and 5 assists in 17 games at a new club is a decent start!

Werners 4 goals in the prem are 1.5 goals lower than his expected 5.5
Firmino 2 goals are 2.27 goals lower than expected 4.47
De Bruyne is 2.37 below his expected goals
Ricarlison is 2.3 below his Xg

Other top players have worse Xg differentials
 
TrustInJanuzaj said:
I just don't think technique is something that changes drastically in a player especially once they get past a certain age. What I will say is Lukaku now looks leaner and fitter (like his Everton days) and that will help him more generally in terms of his movements and balance which of course ties into the technique. That being said Lukaku is one of the weakest 'top' strikers in world football when compared in this aspect. If he wants to be world class then he has to be compared to the likes of Kane, Lewandowski, Aguero and in comparison to those players, Lukaku is genuinely a donkey. He regularly miscontrols, he's not got tight dribbling and his passing can be really inconsistent. Overall Its clear you just rate him far higher than me.

On Werner a poster above summarised him well, he's a threat but at the same time he isn't the best technician, he's not the best passer and his finishing leaves plenty to be desired. His best attribute is without a doubt his pace and intensity which on its own is a weapon but again that leaves him someway off the best players in the league. I've actually watched loads of Chelsea this season (god knows why!) and he hasn't impressed me once which is exactly what I used to think for Germany. That's not me making up my mind already, I just find on the eye test he doesn't fit the bill. I'm happy to admit when I get things wrong and if he improves and goes up a level then fair play to him.
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I don't believe that technique evolves past a certain age either but their are other things that might affect it. Fitness and confidence first and foremost. Lukaku hasn't improved his technique I believe, he's just in a better shape now, both physically and mentally. And nowadays he regularly shows very impressive skills on the ball. He's obviously very hard to dispossess with his back to goal but his lay offs, his dribbling and even his passing technique are on a very good level currently. That's what I mean. A player can show a completely different face at another club and that's what he is doing since joining Inter.

Moreover, I don't think Werner is an elite technician or dribbler either. However, you labelled him a pace merchant and that's incredibly far from true. Werner can be have untidy touches, bad ball control or mess up easy passes and chances which severely limits his potential but he also scores absolute stunners and at times goes past two, three or four defenders like it's nothing and shows great dribbling skills while doing so. The goal when he lobs the ball over the keeper and finishes afterwards is a piece of skill you rarely see at all. Pace merchants aren't capable of this kind of stuff. And they don't score 30 goals in a single season either.

I mean, none of Lukaku and Werner have player of the season potential let alone something above that. But you made it sound as if they were complete slouches their strength/speed aside.
 
Moby said:
Goes another game without scoring. Currently on his longest club drought in last 5 odd years.
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Chelsea are going to have issues creating chances for him without Ziyech, Pulisic, and CHO. There's absolutely no creativity from wide positions in the squad without them.
 
Chelsea have had a decent season so far but I still feel they aren’t getting the best out of Werner and Havertz.
 
Moby said:
That's not true. James is an excellent crosser and was probably their most creative player today.
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He's definitely an excellent crosser, but if he's the primary creative outlet and he's crossing into packed defenses over an over again as he was tonight then he's unlikely to be successful. James is a massive asset going forward but he needs to have a relationship with the wide forward in front of him - he and Ziyech complement each other perfectly, while Havertz looked generally lost out there on the right.
 
Nick7 said:
That seems strange to me. Strikes me as a player that would do well in the centre with your wide players and fullbacks.
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We were told he is at his best playing alongside some kind of target man. Giroud is one of the best in the world when if comes to linking play, allowing players to play off him. I think Werner is just out of form.
 
WeePat said:
We were told he is at his best playing alongside some kind of target man. Giroud is one of the best in the world when if comes to linking play, allowing players to play off him. I think Werner is just out of form.
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Forgive me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he play up top alone at Leipzig?

Does Lampard ever play two up top or is it expected that Werner plays on the left defensively and slots in behind Giroud in attack? I don’t watch much of Chelsea.
 
Nick7 said:
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he play up top alone at Leipzig?

Does Lampard ever play two up top or is it expected that Werner plays on the left defensively and slots in behind Giroud in attack? I don’t watch much of Chelsea.
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He almost always had a striker to play off centrally, usually Yussuf Poulsen.

We play predominantly a 433 with Werner as the right sided forward, either Giroud or Abraham centrally and Ziyech on the left. I think there are mitigating circumstances for Havertz but I think Werner just hit a rough patch.
 
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Nick7 said:
Forgive me if I’m wrong, but didn’t he play up top alone at Leipzig?

Does Lampard ever play two up top or is it expected that Werner plays on the left defensively and slots in behind Giroud in attack? I don’t watch much of Chelsea.
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He mostly played as an inside left forward at Leipzig - generally off of a larger target man. Prior to last season he'd been more on his own on the last line of defence but Nagelsmann moved him deeper so he had more opportunities to run at defenders and it worked wonders for him.

I think he could still do a very good job as a false 9 - he's very rarely played up top on his own for Chelsea so far this season, though.
 
WeePat said:
He almost always had a striker to play off centrally, usually Yussuf Poulsen.

We play predominantly a 433 with Werner as the right sided forward, either Giroud or Abraham centrally and Ziyech on the left. I think there are mitigating circumstances for Havertz but I think Werner just hit a rough patch.
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TheMagicFoolBus said:
He mostly played as an inside left forward at Leipzig - generally off of a larger target man. Prior to last season he'd been more on his own on the last line of defence but Nagelsmann moved him deeper so he had more opportunities to run at defenders and it worked wonders for him.

I think he could still do a very good job as a false 9 - he's very rarely played up top on his own for Chelsea so far this season, though.
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Thanks guys. I think in hindsight it’s a bit odd going for both Werner and Havertz in that case. It seems going by what both of you say they both occupy similar positions on the pitch when playing in their favoured positions.
 
"You're just a German Darren Huckerby, German Darren Huckerby!"
 
Nick7 said:
Thanks guys. I think in hindsight it’s a bit odd going for both Werner and Havertz in that case. It seems going by what both of you say they both occupy similar positions on the pitch when playing in their favoured positions.
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Havertz is an 8, mostly as the right sided 8 so in the formation we play him and Werner will mostly occupy opposite ends of the attack.
 
Nick7 said:
Thanks guys. I think in hindsight it’s a bit odd going for both Werner and Havertz in that case. It seems going by what both of you say they both occupy similar positions on the pitch when playing in their favoured positions.
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Glad to provide some insight! The issue for us tonight was that all 3 of our wingers were out injured, so we had to shoehorn Werner and Havertz into wide areas when both are ideally complemented by a creative player on the opposite flank. Combined with Giroud being useless on the evening, and our front line looked entirely inept.
 
WeePat said:
Havertz is an 8, mostly as the right sided 8 so in the formation we play him and Werner will mostly occupy opposite ends of the attack.
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Yeah, I didn’t really mean the exact same position, but from what I’ve seen of Havertz he seems to like roaming forwards behind the striker while attacking. That would clash with Werner if he were playing off a target man. Am I incorrect in that assumption?
 
Nick7 said:
Yeah, I didn’t really mean the exact same position, but from what I’ve seen of Havertz he seems to like roaming forwards behind the striker while attacking. That would clash with Werner if he were playing off a target man. Am I incorrect in that assumption?
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Ideally they would be roaming in behind on different sides of the striker., Werrner coming in off the left, Havertz running from deep from the middle right. They end up similar sometimes when one of them switch sides but honestly, they mostly been out of each others way.
 
Nick7 said:
Yeah, I didn’t really mean the exact same position, but from what I’ve seen of Havertz he seems to like roaming forwards behind the striker while attacking. That would clash with Werner if he were playing off a target man. Am I incorrect in that assumption?
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I don't think they're filling the exact same role - Werner likes to play off so he can pick his spots to run in behind, when building up he's a very limited player especially with his back to goal. Havertz on the other hand is more likely to drop deep to pull a defender with him so he can find a killer pass. That said, they certainly weren't on the same wavelength tonight but for me much of that is down to Giroud playing an absolute clanger.
 
WeePat said:
Ideally they would be roaming in behind on different sides of the striker., Werrner coming in off the left, Havertz running from deep from the middle right. They end up similar sometimes when one of them switch sides but honestly, they mostly been out of each others way.
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TheMagicFoolBus said:
I don't think they're filling the exact same role - Werner likes to play off so he can pick his spots to run in behind, when building up he's a very limited player especially with his back to goal. Havertz on the other hand is more likely to drop deep to pull a defender with him so he can find a killer pass. That said, they certainly weren't on the same wavelength tonight but for me much of that is down to Giroud playing an absolute clanger.
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Thanks again guys, I like both players so I’m interested in seeing how they work out together. Still seems too early to judge them at Chelsea.
 
Nick7 said:
Thanks again guys, I like both players so I’m interested in seeing how they work out together. Still seems too early to judge them at Chelsea.
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Always happy to provide my perspective! Werner has definitely bedded in quicker, though to be fair Havertz has played as a 10, as a right winger, as a false 9, and as an 8 already this year and so especially given his bad case of COVID I'm not one to begrudge him taking his time to find his feet. As @WeePat has said, it seems his best role for us is as an attack-minded free 8 on the right - encouragingly I think his workrate in that position has generally been quite good, which was a doubt coming into the year. As you say though, it's definitely too early to judge.
 
:lol: Continuing the dreadful form. Looks someone who comes to life against bad defenses or when Chelsea is leading and he has tons of space behind the defense to run into but against tighter and deeper defenses there doesn't seem anything that he does to break it open or get into threatening positions. More of the same, please.
 
Moby said:
Looks someone who comes to life against bad defenses or when Chelsea is leading and he has tons of space behind the defense to run into but against tighter and deeper defenses there doesn't seem anything that he does to break it open or get into threatening positions.
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If only some actual Bundesliga watchers would've said this all along ...

In all seriousness: He has always been a bang average player. If not for Nagelsmann creating a perfect system around him in Leipzig (who're currently even doing better without him), nobody would've ever talked about him moving to another top club. All he has is his great pace and workrate. He's average or even below average in all other aspects of the game (technique, finishing, football IQ etc.).

There was a reason why Bayern had zero interest in signing him, despite Werner twerking for them so hard.

Havertz is the actual gem that Chelsea signed, but Lampard is playing him out of position and he seems to be low on confidence right now. His Corona infection certainly didn't help either.
 
GameOn said:
If only some actual Bundesliga watchers would've said this all along ...

In all seriousness: He has always been a bang average player. If not for Nagelsmann creating a perfect system around him in Leipzig (who're currently even doing better without him), nobody would've ever talked about him moving to another top club. All he has is his great pace and workrate. He's average or even below average in all other aspects of the game (technique, finishing, football IQ etc.).

There was a reason why Bayern had zero interest in signing him, despite Werner twerking for them so hard.

Havertz is the actual gem that Chelsea signed, but Lampard is playing him out of position and he seems to be low on confidence right now. His Corona infection certainly didn't help either.
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I thought it was exactly the opposite when I saw them in the first few games. Havertz played out of position or not is not really there with the best talent like people were claimng, there is not much special about him, his start to Chelsea career is pretty shocking and you can see why. Werner on the other hand is a more drilled palyer, who works hard will mis chances but gives them good option for a system player. Pretty much their new Willian or Schurle level player..
 
GameOn said:
If only some actual Bundesliga watchers would've said this all along ...

In all seriousness: He has always been a bang average player. If not for Nagelsmann creating a perfect system around him in Leipzig (who're currently even doing better without him), nobody would've ever talked about him moving to another top club. All he has is his great pace and workrate. He's average or even below average in all other aspects of the game (technique, finishing, football IQ etc.).

There was a reason why Bayern had zero interest in signing him, despite Werner twerking for them so hard.

Havertz is the actual gem that Chelsea signed, but Lampard is playing him out of position and he seems to be low on confidence right now. His Corona infection certainly didn't help either.
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I think that's harsh on Werner. You don't score 25+ goals by being a pace merchant, even if the system is built around you.

Watching a Werner highlight reel is actually quite impressive. At times he has great dribbles in which he goes past multiple opponents, his touches having the perfect length paired with unreal acceleration. He can create real danger out of completely static situations in those occasions. Even his finishing is sometimes extraordinary, scoring from rather unlikely shots. He even showed similar plays for Chelsea already, for example his two absolutely stunning goals against Southampton (?).

The issue with Werner is he has a low bottom level. He's got too many "meh" actions per great play. And his finishing isn't consistent enough. If sorts that out, he'll be a great player for Chelsea. That has to be the next step in his development. Coincidently, it's actually a similar story with Havertz who also takes too many breaks and phases with low focus, although he's generally a completely different type of player. That probably stems from both players being the best at clubs which still a tier below absolute top teams. They could allow themselves these breaks, now they left their comfort zone and have to cut that out of their game.
 
Zehner said:
I think that's harsh on Werner. You don't score 25+ goals by being a pace merchant, even if the system is built around you.
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You realize that Stefan Kießling scored 25+ for you in 2012/13, right? Statistical anomalies like that happen.
Werner has always been a bang average player, who has almost nothing to offer, if you take away his pace/runs behind the last line.
 
GameOn said:
You realize that Stefan Kießling scored 25+ for you in 2011, right? Statistical anomalies like that happen.
Werner has always been a bang average player, who has almost nothing to offer, if you take away his pace/runs behind the last line.
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You're exaggerating. Werner racked up - as a young player - 61 goals and 27 assists in the three seasons before Nagelsmann. 19/20 was only the logical next step.

He is limited in his overall game, which is also the reason he couldn't fully claim the vacant CF position in the NT so far. Imo, his biggest problem is that his best position only exists in a few teams nowadays. He doesn't seem versatile enough to adapt, but I always try to be careful with predictions.
 
GameOn said:
You realize that Stefan Kießling scored 25+ for you in 2012/13, right? Statistical anomalies like that happen.
Werner has always been a bang average player, who has almost nothing to offer, if you take away his pace/runs behind the last line.
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Kießling played pretty good that season. He was a bit like Müller as he had pretty good movement, got on the score sheet and was incredibly valuable in our pressing, so I would've thought you actually rated him.

Anyway, you can't compare Kießling to Werner. Werner is tiers ahead of Kießling technically and while Kießling was one of the slowest players in the Bundesliga, Werner is one of the fastest in the world.

It's also just wrong to claim he has nothing to offer besides his runs behind the last line. This is simply not true.
 
GameOn said:
You realize that Stefan Kießling scored 25+ for you in 2012/13, right? Statistical anomalies like that happen.
Werner has always been a bang average player, who has almost nothing to offer, if you take away his pace/runs behind the last line.
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I think you're exaggerating on both players. As others have pointed out Werner scored 21 and assisted 7 in 2433 minutes for Hasenhüttl. He's clearly a good player, just not a world class one and not an easy fit for most teams. Leipzig utilized him to his fullest, Chelsea probably less so. Maybe he's also cracking under the pressure of his (somewhat) big money move and bigger media spotlight when it comes to finishing.

Kießling was perhaps a late bloomer, but he was quality as well. The 25 goal season was his peak, but he registered 16 goals the season before and 15 goals the season after, as well as 21 goals in 09/10, always with a fair amount of assists on top. There is something between best in the world and "bang average".
 
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I wasn't convinced by him in the limited games I've seen of him in the past but Klopp passing on him when it was the easiest signing in the world for Liverpool to do (player basically begging them to sign him) really said it all

Like I said last night if you're picking your strongest Chelsea XI I don't think he's in it
 
He said himself that the physicality of the PL has been harder than he thought it would be. I think he’s referring to getting less space and more contact with defenders from his comments.

He hasn’t been that bad for the fee though.
 
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