Titanic tourist submersible missing | Sub's debris found - crew "have been lost"

They can be in Atlantis right now surrounded by mermaids. You never know.
There are plenty of debris in the sea. And you'd think there will always be noises nearby a haunted place.
 
That'sHernandez said:
Triton have multiple science submersibles that have featured in numerous BBC documentaries and Sir David Attenborough has been to the bottom of the ocean in one. It's definitely not wrong to say they died because they tried to cheap it; I mean jeez there's enough rich people who want to go into space to be some of the first to do it, there are enough that would pay more than $250,000 to go to the bottom of the ocean in a craft that is less likely to implode.

The sheer lack of visible controls and displays in the Titan is utterly astounding to me.
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Yes this was clearly trying to achieve a trip with the least amount of actual functionality onboard the vessel. I suspect more will come out about this CEO in the coming weeks.

Everything seems to have been controlled from 2 PC screens and a controller. Ok that's fine...so what happens if the power fails? Seemingly the answer was to literally "rock the boat" to dislodge weights / ballast. No gauges, or manually activated unpowered systems to get the vessel to return to the surface.

Ignore the fact that the windows not being rated for the depth you are going to is just murderous behaviour. When your engineering guys discovers this and other problems with the vessel construction....sack him and try to sue him. These are not oversights or unknowns, this is a psychotic decision.

The companies website was a large amount of hokum and I can see how inexperienced people might get taken in, but I'm really surprised that the Hamish guy and the French Naval guy got into that thing. The Hamish guy's background was in Aviation...one of the most stringent industries for safety out there. The french guy has been on other proper submersibles. I just don't understand how someone from that world isn't asking questions about redundant backup systems and refusing to get in it.

Looking at the companies previous history they seem to hire some people for a short term "directorship" get quotes from them and then they disappear, potentially with a few shares in their back pocket.

They did this with a NASA engineer a while back, then started claiming they had "consulted NASA" about the vessels construction.

I'm wondering if the Aviation and Naval guys were offered a free trip in the hope of some sort of endorsement for the company? it doesn't seem like a rational decision from them at all.
 
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buchansleftleg said:
Yes this was clearly trying to achieve a trip with the least amount of actual functionality onboard the vessel. I suspect more will come about this CEO in the coming weeks.

Everything seems to have been controlled from 2 PC screens and a controller. Ok that's fine...so what happens if the power fails? Seemingly the answer was to literally "rock the boat" to dislodge weights / ballast. No gauges, or manually activated unpowered systems to get the vessel to return to the surface.

Ignore the fact that the windows not being rated for the depth you are going to is just murderous behaviour. When your engineering guys discovers this and other problems with the vessel construction....sack him and try to sue him. These are not oversights or unknowns, this is a psychotic decision.

The companies website was a large amount of hokum and I can see how inexperienced people might get taken in, but I'm really surprised that the Hamish guy and the French Naval guy got into that thing. The Hamish guy's background was in Aviation...one of the most stringent industries for safety out there. The french guy has been on other proper submersibles. I just don't understand how someone from that world isn't asking questions about redundant backup systems and refusing to get in it.

Looking at the companies previous history they seem to hire some people for a short term "directorship" get quotes from them and then they disappear, potenially with a few shares in their back pocket.

They did this with a NASA engineer a while back, then started claiming they had "consulted NASA" about the vessels construction.

I'm wondering if the Aviation and Naval guys were offered a free trip in the hope of some sort of endorsement for the company? it doesn't seem like a rational decision from them at all.
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Doesn't surprise me tbh, this is how most CEOs think, it's a pathological focus on money and success, be damned who gets hurt.

Just look at companies like DuPont who literally dumped cancer causing chemicals they knew were harmful onto farmers property.

It should come as no shock that this stuff happens.
 
The Boy said:
Did you use the audio tours they do? They're incredibly well done and leave many people in tears or unable to finish looking around.
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Yeah I did, awful stuff. I particularly remember the parts you mentioned about the bones when it rains, and the tree with the loud noises where they beat the children and women. Awful stuff - not really the type of trip you want to plan if you still want to do something fun afterwards. But at least it's learning you something about a very important part of the history of the country, which is something that cannot be said about the Titanic to be honest.
 
Mogget said:
I will never understand the mindset of regular people who step up to bat for billionaires.
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It's almost like some people have values that they uphold irrespective of the wealth of the people involved.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think that would just make me feel sick because I was at the bottom of the ocean rather than feeling anything regarding the Titanic itself but there is the subjectivity. :lol:
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To be fair I should have written a sense of awe, respect and utter terror!
 
JuveGER said:
It's almost like some people have values that they uphold irrespective of the wealth of the people involved.
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True enough.

I don't think, or at least I haven't seen it if so, that a lot of the online "banter" is aimed at them being billionaires, it's rather that (maybe only now in hindsight) they look like simpletons who didn't do their due diligence, especially since such a thing is expected from people who've made billions in their lifes. I look at TripAdvisor reviews when I'm looking for a scuba dive company, but that's taking "risks" in a safe, controlled environment. For an excursion as complicated (and dangerous) as this one, I wouldn't just think "oh the CEO goes with us and some guy who's been before, that's all I need to know about this small cilinder going 4k deep into the ocean".

But even if they were reckless and so on, that doesn't mean that there aren't families right now mourning and that it's still a damn pity that it happened, so some of the reactions are indeed over the top. The Everest comparison is a good one imo, but I wouldn't go with the first Sherpa that offers me a trip either when I'm going on such an expedition.
 
A couple of other things have come to light - seemingly the support vessel only reported them missing 45 minutes after their expected return time had elapsed, despite the fact they lost the signal 90 minutes into the planned journey. The were supposed to have regular contact every 15 minutes. It's an amazing indication of how casual they were about losing contact with the vessel, implying it happened a lot. Normally any sort of critical incident if not resolved within a short timeframe should be an Abort condition. The fact that the support ship waited another 6 hours before calling it in is either a dereliction of duty or they were doing it because they had been told not to report any problems.

It also seems that the titanium half spheres at each end of the vessel are to a degree intact in the debris field, so it looks like the Carbon Fibre hull that the Engineer warned them about was probably the cause of failure.
 
crossy1686 said:
Yeah I did, and I found that stuff interesting, just not the boat, more the story I guess. I actually use that example when discussing what happens if you over engineer something in the software development world also.
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The fact that the boat was preserved so well because of the fresh water and that it's the only preserved 17th century ship in the world is some of the draw surely. I found it fascinating.
 
buchansleftleg said:
A couple of other things have come to light - seemingly the support vessel only reported them missing 45 minutes after their expected return time had elapsed, despite the fact they lost the signal 90 minutes into the planned journey. The were supposed to have regular contact every 15 minutes. It's an amazing indication of how casual they were about losing contact with the vessel, implying it happened a lot. Normally any sort of critical incident if not resolved within a short timeframe should be an Abort condition. The fact that the support ship waited another 6 hours before calling it in is either a dereliction of duty or they were doing it because they had been told not to report any problems.

It also seems that the titanium half spheres at each end of the vessel are to a degree intact in the debris field, so it looks like the Carbon Fibre hull that the Engineer warned them about was probably the cause of failure.
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It sounds like it was pure luck the thing didn’t implode sooner
 
Withnail said:
The fact that the boat was preserved so well because of the fresh water and that it's the only preserved 17th century ship in the world is some of the draw surely. I found it fascinating.
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I think they did some restoration on it but it’s definitely in good shape for a boat that sat on the bottom of the ocean for a while.
 
buchansleftleg said:
A couple of other things have come to light - seemingly the support vessel only reported them missing 45 minutes after their expected return time had elapsed, despite the fact they lost the signal 90 minutes into the planned journey. The were supposed to have regular contact every 15 minutes. It's an amazing indication of how casual they were about losing contact with the vessel, implying it happened a lot. Normally any sort of critical incident if not resolved within a short timeframe should be an Abort condition. The fact that the support ship waited another 6 hours before calling it in is either a dereliction of duty or they were doing it because they had been told not to report any problems.

It also seems that the titanium half spheres at each end of the vessel are to a degree intact in the debris field, so it looks like the Carbon Fibre hull that the Engineer warned them about was probably the cause of failure.
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It definitely did happen last year as well according to that journalist. It's probably why they didn't consider it a very serious issue and this is rather alarming!
 
William Kohnen, chairman of the Manned Underwater Vehicles Committee, said the regulations for building submersible vessels were “written in blood”.

Kohnen’s organisation, based in Los Angeles in the US, raised safety concerns in 2018 about OceanGate’s development of Titan.

He suggested the company was “not willing to undergo the standard certification process which we all do in the submarine industry” via a third party “double check” system.

The committee warned at the time that the development decisions could have “negative outcomes from minor to catastrophic that could have serious consequences”.
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Not really surprising at all given all the news that has come out about the company.
 
DomesticTadpole said:
Surely you are better making it as safe as you very possibly can.
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Id guess the safer it needs to be the more money you need to spend on R&D and materials. A bit like how the commercial airlines vs the 2/3 people planes. Both go up but ones meant to go a lot higher up.

Id never get into this thing though. But im not an explorer.
 
buchansleftleg said:
Yes this was clearly trying to achieve a trip with the least amount of actual functionality onboard the vessel. I suspect more will come out about this CEO in the coming weeks.

Everything seems to have been controlled from 2 PC screens and a controller. Ok that's fine...so what happens if the power fails? Seemingly the answer was to literally "rock the boat" to dislodge weights / ballast. No gauges, or manually activated unpowered systems to get the vessel to return to the surface.

Ignore the fact that the windows not being rated for the depth you are going to is just murderous behaviour. When your engineering guys discovers this and other problems with the vessel construction....sack him and try to sue him. These are not oversights or unknowns, this is a psychotic decision.

The companies website was a large amount of hokum and I can see how inexperienced people might get taken in, but I'm really surprised that the Hamish guy and the French Naval guy got into that thing. The Hamish guy's background was in Aviation...one of the most stringent industries for safety out there. The french guy has been on other proper submersibles. I just don't understand how someone from that world isn't asking questions about redundant backup systems and refusing to get in it.

Looking at the companies previous history they seem to hire some people for a short term "directorship" get quotes from them and then they disappear, potentially with a few shares in their back pocket.

They did this with a NASA engineer a while back, then started claiming they had "consulted NASA" about the vessels construction.

I'm wondering if the Aviation and Naval guys were offered a free trip in the hope of some sort of endorsement for the company? it doesn't seem like a rational decision from them at all.
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That’s the thing. Everyone is speculating, based on bits of pieces of incomplete information. And obviously assuming the worst because of the outcome. We’ve now got to the stage where you’re suggesting a billionaire aviationist/explorer and an ex-navy submarine expert who’ve already explored some of the most dangerous places on the planet would simply stop caring about their own safety, just because they’re offered a freebie? Come on.

Without knowing any of the discussions that went on surely it’s reasonable to assume that the right questions were asked and the answers they received were satisfactory. And chances are the other, less expert, passengers assumed that travelling with these guys meant that they didn’t need to do their own due diligence.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
That’s the thing. Everyone is speculating, based on bits of pieces of incomplete information. And obviously assuming the worst because of the outcome. We’ve now got to the stage where you’re suggesting a billionaire aviationist/explorer and an ex-navy submarine expert who’ve already explored some of the most dangerous places on the planet would simply stop caring about their own safety, just because they’re offered a freebie? Come on.

Without knowing any of the discussions that went on surely it’s reasonable to assume that the right questions were asked and the answers they received were satisfactory. And chances are the other, less expert, passengers assumed that travelling with these guys meant that they didn’t need to do their own due diligence.
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Experts in the field are roundly/unanimously criticising the company and craft.
 
Scandi Red said:
Another aspect is all the resources that are involved when trying to save these daredevils. In other words, it can be expensive, time-consuming and dangerous for other people.
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They were doing this search out of altruism. It's likely allowed them to test new tech under the guise of a rescue mission.
 
Am I wrong in thinking the window wasn't actually the problem because while it was not rated for that depth, it probably would be fine and it was the carbon fibre that was the problem from what I've read?

Regardless tbh this just proves libertarian values are idiotic
 
buchansleftleg said:
A couple of other things have come to light - seemingly the support vessel only reported them missing 45 minutes after their expected return time had elapsed, despite the fact they lost the signal 90 minutes into the planned journey. The were supposed to have regular contact every 15 minutes. It's an amazing indication of how casual they were about losing contact with the vessel, implying it happened a lot. Normally any sort of critical incident if not resolved within a short timeframe should be an Abort condition. The fact that the support ship waited another 6 hours before calling it in is either a dereliction of duty or they were doing it because they had been told not to report any problems.
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The post on a previous page from the Wall Street Journal (?) states:

The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after its disappearance, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.

How would they know to listen for the sub as soon as there was a loss of communications if it wasn't reported until 6 hours later? Somebody isn't reporting accurate information.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Id guess the safer it needs to be the more money you need to spend on R&D and materials. A bit like how the commercial airlines vs the 2/3 people planes. Both go up but ones meant to go a lot higher up.

Id never get into this thing though. But im not an explorer.
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Neither would I, but that's only because going miles under the sea in a little tin can is my worst nightmare.

I know everybody who has ever dunked their head under water in the bath is suddenly a deep sea diving expert, but it's a stretch to say the vast majority would have the knowledge to question the safety of this thing. The Navy guy is one thing, but the tourists? How are they to know the ins and outs of submarine design.
 
Resonance said:
The post on a previous page from the Wall Street Journal (?) states:

The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after its disappearance, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.

How would they know to listen for the sub as soon as there was a loss of communications if it wasn't reported until 6 hours later? Somebody isn't reporting accurate information.
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The Navy listens across the entire Atlantic for Russian subs. They heard something but they didn't report it because a) they don't want to disclose their capabilities and b) they didn't know it was the Titan until everybody else started looking for it. They probably thought it was a weapons test or something military.
 
RIP and condolences to the families.

There is a former US Submarine officer making content on youtube that made an analysis a couple of days ago of the situation and the sub and, at the end of the presentation, made it clear the "sub" is lost. Very chilling description of how many wrong decisions were taken by that company. I will only write about one of them because it is infuriating to me: the owner was giving himself credit about not employing "50 yo white man" but rather giving diversity and youth a chance to inspire. There is no question under the sun that the decision to do that had f all to do with giving anything a chance and 100% was motivated by not wanting to pay wages to a pro (ex military). To hide greed behind "diversity" and "giving youth a chance" just turn my stomach over. Rant over.
 
jackal&hyde said:
RIP and condolences to the families.

There is a former US Submarine officer making content on youtube that made an analysis a couple of days ago of the situation and the sub and, at the end of the presentation, made it clear the "sub" is lost. Very chilling description of how many wrong decisions were taken by that company. I will only write about one of them because it is infuriating to me: the owner was giving himself credit about not employing "50 yo white man" but rather giving diversity and youth a chance to inspire. There is no question under the sun that the decision to do that had f all to do with giving anything a chance and 100% was motivated by not wanting to pay wages to a pro (ex military). To hide greed behind "diversity" and "giving youth a chance" just turn my stomach over. Rant over.
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Was this guy on YouTube by any chance a middle aged white man?
 
Resonance said:
The post on a previous page from the Wall Street Journal (?) states:

The Navy began listening for the Titan almost as soon as the sub lost communications, according to a U.S. defense official. Shortly after its disappearance, the U.S. system detected what it suspected was the sound of an implosion near the debris site discovered Thursday and reported its findings to the commander on site, U.S. defense officials said.

How would they know to listen for the sub as soon as there was a loss of communications if it wasn't reported until 6 hours later? Somebody isn't reporting accurate information.
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There is speculation that Navy is deliberately muddying the timelines to not reveal the extent to which they can actively hear in realtime the noises from a subsurface implosion and so are implying they were "already looking" in that area for something.

A sub surface launch of a missile from a Russian sub near the US coast is the sort of thing that has always been a concern of US Military...and given the current hostility from Russia in Ukraine...things will have been at high alert so whatever tech the US Navy has it will want to keep it's capabilities under wraps.

Pogue Mahone said:
That’s the thing. Everyone is speculating, based on bits of pieces of incomplete information. And obviously assuming the worst because of the outcome. We’ve now got to the stage where you’re suggesting a billionaire aviationist/explorer and an ex-navy submarine expert who’ve already explored some of the most dangerous places on the planet would simply stop caring about their own safety, just because they’re offered a freebie? Come on.

Without knowing any of the discussions that went on surely it’s reasonable to assume that the right questions were asked and the answers they received were satisfactory. And chances are the other, less expert, passengers assumed that travelling with these guys meant that they didn’t need to do their own due diligence.
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You're right in that it's madness to be speculating but the picture the BBC has on it's website of the Hamish guy is from a media agency that works to promote extreme travel stuff and he is wearing their "Mission specialist" jumpsuit...looks like something for a promo piece rather than a "here's a picture we me and my mates on holiday" picture. Not seen a similar picture of the French guy.

I should add I'm not criticising them by the way - I think the CEO has been manipulative...Hamish tweeted that their dive was "likely to be the first and only manned mission to the Titanic in 2023" the day before which sounds like a bit of huxterism from the CEO to me.

"We have to go now or not at all" is not the sort of safety first approach anyone involved in diving would take.
 
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buchansleftleg said:
You're right in that it's madness to be speculating but the picture the BBC has on it's website of the Hamish guy is from a media agency that works to promote extreme travel stuff and he is wearing their "Mission specialist" jumpsuit...looks like something for a promo piece rather than a "here's a picture we me and my mates on holiday" picture. Not seen a similar picture of the French guy.
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There’s a lot of information about both of them online. You don’t need to form opinions on them based on a photograph. Otherwise you’re just doubling down on your wild speculation.
 
That'sHernandez said:
It's covered but have we had 4/5 days of a BBC Live Updates page, in which the majority of 'updates' are pure speculation, dedicated to it? The coverage has been totally disproportionate in comparison to the scale of the problem and the amount of lives lost.
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At least it pushed stories about who hates Harry and Megan, celebrity fashion and other essential stories off the front page.

The fact this thread is so long tells you exactly why this story was so well covered.
 
Mogget said:
I will never understand the mindset of regular people who step up to bat for billionaires.
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Almost every ad ever tells us we should aspire to be them. Media lauds them and often gives them a platform based on their wealth. It's a factor.
 
11101 said:
Neither would I, but that's only because going miles under the sea in a little tin can is my worst nightmare.

I know everybody who has ever dunked their head under water in the bath is suddenly a deep sea diving expert, but it's a stretch to say the vast majority would have the knowledge to question the safety of this thing. The Navy guy is one thing, but the tourists? How are they to know the ins and outs of submarine design.
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Then again, you'd think billionaires would do due diligence on everything they do, especially something involving a significant risk.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Then again, you'd think billionaires would do due diligence on everything they do, especially something involving a significant risk.
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They are only humans. Most cardiologists probably eat burgers and other tasty unhealthy foods. You would think they have the knowledge but they do it anyway.
 
MDFC Manager said:
Then again, you'd think billionaires would do due diligence on everything they do, especially something involving a significant risk.
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Absolutely. It’s very out of the ordinary for extremely wealthy people to fall for something like this. Or scams in general. Especially when it’s about asset management and stock brokerage. It just doesn’t happen.
 
One thing I don't understand: This vessel surely had loads of lighter than water components. If they imploded with such a ferocity as people say wouldn't the sub be shattered into loads of small pieces and some of the lighter than water materials have surfaced relatively quickly?

Not saying huge parts, but like with aircraft crashes small parts of carbon fiber etc. Yes the possible field where it could have surfaced was large but not nearly as huge as with a missing plane travelling at speed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This thread is such a weird mish mash of putting billionaires on pedestals "they're so smart they must do due diligence every time they take a risk!" and treating them as subhuman scum "lolz, the rich man died and his step-son's a twat and all!"
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With you and a few others trying to be arbiters of what can and shouldn't be said.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This thread is such a weird mish mash of putting billionaires on pedestals "they're so smart they must do due diligence every time they take a risk!" and treating them as subhuman scum "lolz, the rich man died and his step-son's a twat and all!"
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it reflects exactly what is all over social media too

the whole epsiode has been bizarre. The incident itself and the reaction too
 
Pogue Mahone said:
This thread is such a weird mish mash of putting billionaires on pedestals "they're so smart they must do due diligence every time they take a risk!" and treating them as subhuman scum "lolz, the rich man died and his step-son's a twat and all!"
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i just find it funny that people are that wrapped up in a clear government conspiracy. my mate is cousins with kate winslet, and not only was she actually born decades after the titanic supposedly sank, she’s actually still alive today. the goverment have made it all up. just don’t mention to him that you’ve seen her tits.
 
rimaldo said:
i just find it funny that people are that wrapped up in a clear government conspiracy. my mate is cousins with kate winslet, and not only was she actually born decades after the titanic supposedly sank, she’s actually still alive today. the goverment have made it all up. just don’t mention to him that you’ve seen her tits.
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:lol:
 
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