Unfathomable power
Titanic tourist submersible missing | Sub's debris found - crew "have been lost"
- Thread starter Solius
- Start date
Unfathomable power
With regards to the news coverage these type of things usually push the media angle to drum up support, emotional, political and financial, for any rescue attempt. In this case it is a bit of a unique situation in that the people being rescued don't need the financial support, or most likely the political support. As we have seen from the "hilarious" commentary around this they hardly got the emotional support either.
Should it be the subject of one of the biggest films of all time?
Let's not turn this as another tourism spot. Please humans, you have so many beautiful places on earth for tourism. If you have no business as researchers, or as families who are directly affected and would like to pay a tribute to your ancestors in "tragedy" places. Then don't do it. You want an experience? go visit safer places with beautiful cultures, you have no shortage of them.
I will never understand the mindset of regular people who step up to bat for billionaires.
As someone who has bungeed, sky dived, went caving, cave diving, climbed mountains and is an advanced diver the problem is not that people shouldn't take risks. I get that its not for most people but people who do extreme sports know the risks and are prepared to face the consequences even if its death. Its their lives and they have a freedom to choose.
However what is unfathomable to me is that if you do it then take as many precautions as is feasible. Don't just yeet yourself off a plane with a chute you bought from a dodgy Chinese website. Dont climb a mountain unless you are fully prepared. And don't just build an exploratory sub to go to those depths. Its just common sense.
Its fkn stupid what these people did. If it was just the CEO and he decided to risk his own life to prove his theories of building submersibles then full respect to him. But don't start running it as a tourist trip at 250 grand each. And the billionaires should have known better. If you ever risk your life then make sure you vet the company who has your life in their hands and if it seems dodgy even a little then find another solution.
However what is unfathomable to me is that if you do it then take as many precautions as is feasible. Don't just yeet yourself off a plane with a chute you bought from a dodgy Chinese website. Dont climb a mountain unless you are fully prepared. And don't just build an exploratory sub to go to those depths. Its just common sense.
Its fkn stupid what these people did. If it was just the CEO and he decided to risk his own life to prove his theories of building submersibles then full respect to him. But don't start running it as a tourist trip at 250 grand each. And the billionaires should have known better. If you ever risk your life then make sure you vet the company who has your life in their hands and if it seems dodgy even a little then find another solution.
There you go.
Could you maybe talk us through the due diligence you did on the companies you went bungy jumping, sky diving etc with?
There’s a lot of being wise after the fact here. Yes, it was a risky trip but the sub had been down dozens of times before and I’m sure everyone involved seemed well qualified and plausible. One of the guys who went down, Henri Nargeolet, seems to be about as qualified as it’s possible to be for a trip like this. And he was going to be on the sub with them. Which will have been a huge factor in deciding whether to take this risk.
Ultimately anyone who has ever done any risky pursuit is well used to putting their safety in the hands of someone more experienced, without second guessing everything they’re advised. That’s how these things work. Which you should know from your own experiences.
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Another aspect is all the resources that are involved when trying to save these daredevils. In other words, it can be expensive, time-consuming and dangerous for other people.
We could just leave them and it wouldn't cost anything.
Yeah I did, and I found that stuff interesting, just not the boat, more the story I guess. I actually use that example when discussing what happens if you over engineer something in the software development world also.
An argument I could suggest is that in many of these examples the bodies have been buried and put to rest and have 'moved on' so to speak in terms of their development of the land over time. It's quite rare that you will have a site on land which is similar to the Titanic/any shipwreck where they are 'stuck' in time so to speak. Perhaps the most obvious and famous land example would be Pompeii. Chernobyl a recent example.
It also opens up arguments which surround ethics when it comes to death, even in terms of human remains being displayed in museums. It's a pretty subjective topic.
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Imagine they find a population of humans in a cave
I've always thought it's a bit sad to seek fulfilment through adrenaline rushes, so shallow. And selfish too, if you have a family of your own. Yes, it's your choice, but is it also the choice of your loved ones? I don't know, I'm not advocating banning extreme sports/recreational activities as long as they don't put anyone else at risk, but claiming they're a legitimate source of joy/fulfilment/meaning sounds a bit juvenile to me.
You go with a reputable company that has been operating for years. They have safety as a key priority. They use new or nearly new equipment from established companies that also have their own high standards of safety. It goes on and on. I went to jump in a Soviet bloc country and within 10 minutes you can tell these guys are not professionals. Yes professional skydivers but the business is not. Its not rocket science.
If I was a billionaire taking on the riskiest pursuit of going down to the titanic then you would hire a team of pros to assess the risks. Not just rely on the owner saying 'Oh its fine'. Would you jump off a plane with a parachute that was designed by the CEO with no certification from the FAA etc?
When I first read the news I thought it was a fake news. I still can't believe that a few billionaires and a dive expert would go into that sub built with dodgy "homemade" method which used gaming controller to navigate.
I think it's interesting, I lived for a few years in Cambodia and Choueng Ek or the Killing Fields were a very popular tourist attraction, it's a very powerful place, but when it rains, bones, teeth and clothing still rise to the surface and are collected very carefully, no one knows how may people were murdered there exactly but there's thought to be thousands of bodies still under the ground.
As you say Pompeii is another one which is very powerful for different reasons, but in my mind people should be allowed to see where these horrific moments in history took place, it can and of course should certainly be done in a respectful way. But to say you should just leave these places alone feels wrong to me.
So they should have looked for equipment from more established companies doing the same thing? News flash. There are none.
Yes, respect is paramount, especially in cases like Chernobyl, The Killing fields and the Titanic wreck due to the relative recency of each.
I also think we have to gauge what we are learning from each/what we can take away from visiting a place. I find it difficult to imagine you learn anything / feel anything different when visiting the titanic in a submarine compared to being at home watching a video or experiencing it through 3D modelling. I do think however you can receive a much more sombering and educational visit to Auschwitz than just through a screen.
So what does that tell you
Killing Fields and Tuol Sleng in the city center were two of the most chilling and grim things I've ever visited. It especially hit home that it wasn't even that long ago that those atrocities took place - my parents were teenagers when it all happened.
Exactly. Red flag. Danger! This should not = hey son I found an experimental company to take us to the depths of hell
Well there's that company that James Cameron has a share in isn't there that custom builds them...
See Inside Submarines Backed by James Cameron, Ray Dalio (businessinsider.com)
I mean it's literally a company that builds that stuff for the ultra rich to explore the ocean. I don't think it's wrong to say that they died because they tried to cheap it.
That they’re reliant on the expertise of the people who have taken subs down there.
Personally I think it's fine to visit such places if it's safe to do so. I only cited the scale of death at the Titanic wreck site because it clearly indicates how dangerous this part of the ocean is and why visiting such a place in what is in essence a home-made vessel is beyond hubris. The way the Titanic sank is really well documented, and while I appreciate there are numerous reasons from scientific to historic research to want to visit the wreck site the excuse these people were making to take paying customers doesn't really wash. There's nothing scientific about what they were doing.
In terms of human remains on display it's a bit of a paradox for me because I believe when a person dies that's it and there's nothing to disrespect with regards to their body, but I also think there's an element of disrespect in displaying the remains of someone who clearly did believe in an afterlife, or are at least being displayed without their permission; they were buried for a reason and I don't see what is educational about displaying the leathery remains of a mummified human body. It just seems a bit voyeuristic to me.
I feel a lot of relief that the submersible imploded actually. The thought of waiting for days while the oxygen slowly ran out with little hope of rescue is terrifying to me, especially considering the levels of discomfort they would have to endure.
Triton have multiple science submersibles that have featured in numerous BBC documentaries and Sir David Attenborough has been to the bottom of the ocean in one. It's definitely not wrong to say they died because they tried to cheap it; I mean jeez there's enough rich people who want to go into space to be some of the first to do it, there are enough that would pay more than $250,000 to go to the bottom of the ocean in a craft that is less likely to implode.
The sheer lack of visible controls and displays in the Titan is utterly astounding to me.
It's a race against time story. Those always capture the airwaves.
As for the migrants in the Mediterranean - if the point is that no where near as much sympathy or resources is extended by all corners I agree. But the point it is not covered is totally false and must be American centric. The migrant boats have become a horrible political football for eight years ever since the picture of the poor kid lifeless on the beach was published. They've been villified, left to die, those who make it get get treated awfully. The government has gone to war with RNLI charity that for over 100 years works in saving lives at sea. The public soared donations to the charity after that siding with them. It is being covered. This narrative feels like one of those ""why is no one talking about ...
." when you can't go two minutes without seeing it on a news feed. It should be done more. The news should cover it from the angle of humanitarianism rather than politics. But I get the feeling having seen plenty of social media posts about this mainly by Americans the last few days that those people are the ones who never cared about the situation until it became a whataboutism tool.
Steinbeck once said that socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires.
It's covered but have we had 4/5 days of a BBC Live Updates page, in which the majority of 'updates' are pure speculation, dedicated to it? The coverage has been totally disproportionate in comparison to the scale of the problem and the amount of lives lost.
I can't breath water.
I disagree, I think being on the bottom of the ocean with the Titanic in the darkness and the silence in a tiny submersible, would be unimaginable and having a Titanic expert there (as I think these guys did, the content officer?) to act rather like a guide would be an unforgettable experience.
It is, of course, subjective, and personally I'm not sure I would do it if given the chance, but if I did I think I would come away with a huge sense of awe and respect.
The American ‘dream’.
That's fair. I personally wouldn't do something like the Titanic tour for both the risk and that I do not think it's a place where you will feel/learn anything more from a submarine (such as the one used) visiting than you will if you're at home watching a documentary or learning through other means. I think also to people who want and pay to do it, fine, but we shouldn't pay for their rescue and that they should have their own funded rescue teams on standby. Legislation surrounding this probably needs another rethink.
Re: Human remains. I think visual learning does help in certain scenarios but advancements in 3D digitisation/printing etc. means that this is a viable counter solution to displaying actual human remains.
People have been dying for their overlords for millennia.
Did you use the audio tours they do? They're incredibly well done and leave many people in tears or unable to finish looking around.
I think that would just make me feel sick because I was at the bottom of the ocean rather than feeling anything regarding the Titanic itself but there is the subjectivity.
I agree completely, there's absolutely no need for a manned craft given the greater ability of ROVs and lower risk to human life. The OceanGate set-up was clearly selling an experience.