[JoaquinJoaquin]

People love pace almost as much as a tall centre back.

Blame the FIFA games for that.

 

[Rossa]

Blame the FIFA games for that.

He has 80 for pace on FIFA - ridiculous! Besides, pace doesn't matter that much on FIFA these days, and that sucks, since it becomes so obvious that I suck.

 

[Rossa]

Why does every fast player have to be shunted out wide? Mensah in the middle will be able to cause havoc because of his pace and strength. Most midfielders aren't lightning, and that was one of the reasons why Giggs was such a success at times in midfield where he would find it much easier to run past and dribble past opponents than out on the wing where he would face fast wingers and fullbacks.

Mensah, for all his speed, isn't a winger. He should be deployed as a box to box central midfielder. Ramires at Chelsea was quite limited as a footballer, but he was fast as feck and could run up and down the pitch like Valencia on speed. Mensah could do the same for us, but he is much stronger as well and seems at least as good a footballer.

 

[FromTheBench]

He is so much like a Young Jones when he first broke through.

Can see him settling on CB in the long run though probably can do a job in CM too but not quite sure his touch and short passing consistency is up for it at that level.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Why does every fast player have to be shunted out wide? Mensah in the middle will be able to cause havoc because of his pace and strength. Most midfielders aren't lightning, and that was one of the reasons why Giggs was such a success at times in midfield where he would find it much easier to run past and dribble past opponents than out on the wing where he would face fast wingers and fullbacks.

Mensah, for all his speed, isn't a winger. He should be deployed as a box to box central midfielder. Ramires at Chelsea was quite limited as a footballer, but he was fast as feck and could run up and down the pitch like Valencia on speed. Mensah could do the same for us, but he is much stronger as well and seems at least as good a footballer.

It's not because he's fast. It's because he's young. Darren Fletcher did the same thing (prompting tremendous indignation on the caf) and nobody has ever called him fast.

Rashford explained why, earlier this week:

"Playing out wide is going to help me to develop to play in the middle in the long run," he said. "Looking at the game from a different perspective, it's helping my game a lot.

"When I do get a chance to go in the middle, I find things more natural now. I do think it's helping my game. "

 

[devilish]

Young defenders are so unpredictable that no one can be 100% sure if they will be able to be true to the hype surrounding them. I've lost count of how many new Maldini Italy had produced, only for them to not reaching the expectations set. Some were decent enough but others were just horrible.

The worst thing we can do is to hype him. He needs to think that his very career as a footballer is on the line and to make each minute on the pitch count.

 

[JohnnyLaw]

He could do the Herrera role.

Tend to agree with you. We can do better than Herrera though he is Good. TFM isn't anything more than a Mikel style stopper in midfield for me. He doesn't have the intelligence to be roaming all over the pitch IMO.

He is a centre back.

If used in midfield then he should be competing with Herrera IMO. He'd add to our pressing game make us more dynamic and his speed could be devastating on counterattacks as we saw yesterday when Zlatan scored. However, I don't trust his positional sense yet and I fear that a midfield three of Herrera, him and Pogba would be far too undisciplined as they all have a tendency for playing like headless chickens from time to time. I'd rather have a guy with that mix of inexperience and pace roaming freely than in a role which requires a level head.

 

[dichinero]

Just get him games!

 

[Rossa]

It's not because he's fast. It's because he's young. Darren Fletcher did the same thing (prompting tremendous indignation on the caf) and nobody has ever called him fast.

Rashford explained why, earlier this week:

"Playing out wide is going to help me to develop to play in the middle in the long run," he said. "Looking at the game from a different perspective, it's helping my game a lot.

"When I do get a chance to go in the middle, I find things more natural now. I do think it's helping my game. "

OK, I can buy into that. It has happened to quite a few players though who were much better in the middle, such as Ramires and Gerrard for instance, and even Coutinho. I'm thinking that Smalling and Jones benefitted from playing RB as both are really good one on one out wide (where Vidic, for instance, struggled). If him playing out wide means that he develops his all round game, then I'm all for it. Labelling him similar to Bale is a bit silly though. Bailly and Smalling are also rapid - should we play them left wing?

Fletcher was never in a million years a winger, but playing there did probably improve his overall game.

 

[CG1010]

I'm thinking that Smalling and Jones benefitted from playing RB as both are really good one on one out wide (where Vidic, for instance, struggled).

Specifically about those two, I disagree. We would have been much better off giving them games at CB whenever we could. Both the players gradually became worse at RB, so much so that everybody wrote them off. And then when they started playing CB, their performances improved again (although with Jones, there is a question mark on his injuries).

So sometimes you could damage a player by playing him repeatedly at a non-natural position. This is something our club is quite competent in doing actually. But with respect to TFM, I get the sense that he doesn't have a particular position yet, because he is too good (as compared to his age) on some attributes and not very good in some others. So he is equally good (bad) in many positions at the moment. But I would want Mourinho to make up his mind soon about his long-term vision for TFM and start working with him accordingly.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Specifically about those two, I disagree. We would have been much better off giving them games at CB whenever we could. Both the players gradually became worse at RB, so much so that everybody wrote them off. And then when they started playing CB, their performances improved again (although with Jones, there is a question mark on his injuries).

So sometimes you could damage a player by playing him repeatedly at a non-natural position. This is something our club is quite competent in doing actually. But with respect to TFM, I get the sense that he doesn't have a particular position yet, because he is too good (as compared to his age) on some attributes and not very good in some others. So he is equally good (bad) in many positions at the moment. But I would want Mourinho to make up his mind soon about his long-term vision for TFM and start working with him accordingly.

You have no idea how much their stint at RB may have helped them develop into the CB's they are now. Evans and Pique also played some games at fullback when they were younger. Ditto Bailly. In fact, every one of the CBs in our squad have also played at fullback. I suspect this was probably a useful part of their development, rather than the "damage" you seem to think it is.

 

[Stacks]

for now it's good for us to knwo that Mou rates him and give him the playing time despite not playing him in his best position, sort of like Rashford situation... we have too many midfielders, not enough holding midfielders to make up for his possible mistake I guess it would be too soon to try to push him in the team as a midfielder.. right now it's better if Herrera builds an understangin with Pogba and TFm gets starts as a defender or wherever

RB. When you have that kind of pace, why on Earth would you waste it in the middle of the park? It doesn't even help that much in getting to loose balls, as much as that is down to anticipation. Stick him out wide. Let opponents worry about his athleticism

 

[JJ12]

You have no idea how much their stint at RB may have helped them develop into the CB's they are now. Evans and Pique also played some games at fullback when they were younger. Ditto Bailly. In fact, every one of the CBs in our squad have also played at fullback. I suspect this was probably a useful part of their development, rather than the "damage" you seem to think it is.

It's common for many central defenders to develop by playing RB or LB. I'm sure even Carragher played there a few times early on.

The best one that comes to mind is Sergio Ramos but I'm not sure that he played there because he was actually projected to be RB. Anybody know?

 

[CG1010]

You have no idea how much their stint at RB may have helped them develop into the CB's they are now. Evans and Pique also played some games at fullback when they were younger. Ditto Bailly. In fact, every one of the CBs in our squad have also played at fullback. I suspect this was probably a useful part of their development, rather than the "damage" you seem to think it is.

Neither do you to be fair have an idea of how much it helped them. But Smalling might have. For example, he said in 2014 that "Being versatile and being able to play right-back can be a positive when it comes to England sometimes, but you don't want it to become a curse for you overall". In general, my opinion is based on how their game plus confidence regressed over time when they kept playing at RB - which does require more in terms of technical ability than CB. Not only were they found inadequate technically at RB, they didn't seem good enough at CB when they had to play occassionally. This was also the popular opinion at the Caf. Smalling's career literally resurrected when he started playing at CB consistently. Which concurs with his earlier statement about playing RB being a possible curse.

I don't think that every CB playing at RB/LB is a bad thing, but it turned out that way specifically for these two! Maybe it is to do with the amount of time you spend there? Smalling and Jones only got consistent opportunities at CB after playing off-position for ages.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You have no idea how much their stint at RB may have helped them develop into the CB's they are now. Evans and Pique also played some games at fullback when they were younger. Ditto Bailly. In fact, every one of the CBs in our squad have also played at fullback. I suspect this was probably a useful part of their development, rather than the "damage" you seem to think it is.

To learn what the other guys in the back line require from their centre backs perhaps?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

To learn what the other guys in the back line require from their centre backs perhaps?

Exactly. In the same way that Rashford said that playing as a winger has helped him learn what he needs to do more of as a striker.

 

[flappyjay]

Id rather see him come on instead of Fellaini when trying to see out 1-0s. I think people would be more forgiving to him if he made a mistake as well cos he will probably learn from it.

With his pace as well, you wont see people running past him many times (and if they do, he can use his acceleration to get back).

He could also be useful in a counter

 

[ivaldo]

It's nowhere near good enough no one has the ability to be a playmaker and set our tempo. Pogba is a special player but we need a Scholes or Carrick type play maker to compliment Pogba. Not convinced fully about Herrera he's over rated on here by some and never seen TFM in midfield to muster an opinion.

So who plays that role for City or Liverpool or chelsea, which of their players is a deeplying playmaker that controls tempo?

And if you've never seen TFM play in midfield how do you form an opinion that it is 'no where near good enough'?

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

The new John O'Shea?

 

[Rossa]

The new John O'Shea?

Not even even remotely similar as players. He is young and finding his position.

 

[Android1974]

I doubt his technical ability while pressured and also his tactical awareness, which both seem underdeveloped now. That's why he's not really an option in any position yet, really.

 

[Giant Midget]

I honestly think RB is his position. It take advantage of his pace going forward, his defensive ability and his engine. He doesn't have the technical game to be a CM.

Right now his positional sense is very underdeveloped, but once he becomes better at that, I'd like to see him be Valencia's understudy and eventual replacement in a couple of years.

 

[Dobbs]

Neither do you to be fair have an idea of how much it helped them. But Smalling might have. For example, he said in 2014 that "Being versatile and being able to play right-back can be a positive when it comes to England sometimes, but you don't want it to become a curse for you overall". In general, my opinion is based on how their game plus confidence regressed over time when they kept playing at RB - which does require more in terms of technical ability than CB. Not only were they found inadequate technically at RB, they didn't seem good enough at CB when they had to play occassionally. This was also the popular opinion at the Caf. Smalling's career literally resurrected when he started playing at CB consistently. Which concurs with his earlier statement about playing RB being a possible curse.

I don't think that every CB playing at RB/LB is a bad thing, but it turned out that way specifically for these two! Maybe it is to do with the amount of time you spend there? Smalling and Jones only got consistent opportunities at CB after playing off-position for ages.

Agree with all of this.

The best way for a player to develop in a position is to play him in that position. That seems pretty logical to me.

Pace and physicality allows you to play different positions, it makes you useful wherever you are on the pitch. More often than not its those guys who get moved around.

Just get TFM some minutes in midfield. See how it goes.

 

[In Rainbows]

I honestly think RB is his position. It take advantage of his pace going forward, his defensive ability and his engine. He doesn't have the technical game to be a CM.

Right now his positional sense is very underdeveloped, but once he becomes better at that, I'd like to see him be Valencia's understudy and eventual replacement in a couple of years.

Yeah but you can also make the argument that his attacking ability doesn't suit the modern fullbacks who are much better at attacking these days. At cm he can also lead a counter with his pace after winning the ball.

 

[dichinero]

Neither do you to be fair have an idea of how much it helped them. But Smalling might have. For example, he said in 2014 that "Being versatile and being able to play right-back can be a positive when it comes to England sometimes, but you don't want it to become a curse for you overall". In general, my opinion is based on how their game plus confidence regressed over time when they kept playing at RB - which does require more in terms of technical ability than CB. Not only were they found inadequate technically at RB, they didn't seem good enough at CB when they had to play occassionally. This was also the popular opinion at the Caf. Smalling's career literally resurrected when he started playing at CB consistently. Which concurs with his earlier statement about playing RB being a possible curse.

I don't think that every CB playing at RB/LB is a bad thing, but it turned out that way specifically for these two! Maybe it is to do with the amount of time you spend there? Smalling and Jones only got consistent opportunities at CB after playing off-position for ages.

I agree. A larger of the best CBs played in that position, as a CB! It's difficult enough to master the trade. There is as argument for playing different positions, but that should be reserved for youth trainings and reserve, for the purpose of maturing in the role they ought to solidify themselves in.

TFM is not a RB btw, play him in the centre.

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

The new John O'Shea?

The new Matuidi maybe? Pace, stamina, strength. I think he will end up as our midfield enforcer box-to-box style, next to Pogba ahead of him and supported by Carrick Mk II.

 

[Lawman]

So who plays that role for City or Liverpool or chelsea, which of their players is a deeplying playmaker that controls tempo?

And if you've never seen TFM play in midfield how do you form an opinion that it is 'no where near good enough'?

As I said I haven't seen enough of TFM in midfield so don't know, but what I have seen of him he looks more an athletic type than clever player on the ball. Nothing the matter with that and the kid looks a top talent (very excited with his prospects) but not a playmaker from what I have seen.

Chelsea play with two deep lying defensive midfielders who play short quick passes so we could go for that type and Kante is much more suited to that role than Herrera.

I am not really wanting to judge us up against Liverpool but since you asked in my opinion they have Henderson who like Herrera struggles in that 6 position as his passing skill set is not good enough to dictate tempo. I would imagine that will be a key area along with defence that Klopp will be looking at to improve in the short term.

 

[Nighteyes]

He's not disciplined enough at RB. Goes wandering all over the place for no apparent reason. Has to be a either a CB or CM. Right now he's not good enough at in either position and needs a loan in January.

 

[ivaldo]

As I said I haven't seen enough of TFM in midfield so don't know, but what I have seen of him he looks more an athletic type than clever player on the ball. Nothing the matter with that and the kid looks a top talent (very excited with his prospects) but not a playmaker from what I have seen.

Chelsea play with two deep lying defensive midfielders who play short quick passes so we could go for that type and Kante is much more suited to that role than Herrera.

I am not really wanting to judge us up against Liverpool but since you asked in my opinion they have Henderson who like Herrera struggles in that 6 position as his passing skill set is not good enough to dictate tempo. I would imagine that will be a key area along with defence that Klopp will be looking at to improve in the short term.

I think you're being a little harsh on Herreras passing, of course it isn't Carricks level but it's still pretty solid, much better than Hendo and certainly isn't any worse than Kantés.

There isn't a necessity for us to replace carrick with a like for like player, as I said most of our major rivals don't play with a player in his shape.

 

[Lawman]

I think you're being a little harsh on Herreras passing, of course it isn't Carricks level but it's still pretty solid, much better than Hendo and certainly isn't any worse than Kantés.

There isn't a necessity for us to replace carrick with a like for like player, as I said most of our major rivals don't play with a player in his shape.

I agree it is better than Hendersons but not by a million miles. Carricks passing is on a different level as you concur. I think it's not just about Kantes passing his pressing and ability to win the ball back is his key attributes but his passing is very quick and efficient. Herrera is a good player but I'd hope United aim higher as there are better players out there imo.

 

[Litch]

Another player that's betwix and between positions. Must say he was last season absolutely immense at RB and that's where I see his future.

 

[sincher]

I think he is a central midfielder.

 

[sglowrider]

He is so much like a Young Jones when he first broke through.

Can see him settling on CB in the long run though probably can do a job in CM too but not quite sure his touch and short passing consistency is up for it at that level.

He is much more calmer than Jones. Reads the game better than Jones even at 18. Doesnt need to use his turbo skates unless he makes a mistake. He knows that he has that in his locker.

 

[3KDré]

His ability on the ball is being underrated. I think he should and will be a centre mid.

 

[ti vu]

Neither do you to be fair have an idea of how much it helped them. But Smalling might have. For example, he said in 2014 that "Being versatile and being able to play right-back can be a positive when it comes to England sometimes, but you don't want it to become a curse for you overall". In general, my opinion is based on how their game plus confidence regressed over time when they kept playing at RB - which does require more in terms of technical ability than CB. Not only were they found inadequate technically at RB, they didn't seem good enough at CB when they had to play occassionally. This was also the popular opinion at the Caf. Smalling's career literally resurrected when he started playing at CB consistently. Which concurs with his earlier statement about playing RB being a possible curse.

I don't think that every CB playing at RB/LB is a bad thing, but it turned out that way specifically for these two! Maybe it is to do with the amount of time you spend there? Smalling and Jones only got consistent opportunities at CB after playing off-position for ages.

When we're talking about damage for young CBs being shunted out wide, I think we let our United bias get the better of ours rational thinking. The prime suspect here is Smalling is technical flaw on ball. Jones limited gametime was that we had better CBs and Jones' own injury problem. LVG had Jones ahead of Smalling coming into his second season before Jones injury woe continued. Had it not for SMalling, the damage narrative is not as big issue. Someone like Wes Brown had his best and fittest season as RB and he did well. He played outstanding as CB in the tie with Barcelona as CB just fine. Again it's about competition and injury problem not so much with FB side effect on young CB reason.

Look else where, we see Sergio Ramos spent seasons (not just makeshift role) as right back before settled back as CB. Same/similar with Puyol, Chiellini, Jerome Boateng...

As I said earlier, look closely into Smalling case we see that the there is more to top Cb nowadays than just defending (which Smalling has not really reached absolute top level, at least in consistent basis). Perhaps, the answer is simply just that Smalling is not all that

 

[Dobbs]

When we're talking about damage for young CBs being shunted out wide, I think we let our United bias get the better of ours rational thinking. The prime suspect here is Smalling is technical flaw on ball. Jones limited gametime was that we had better CBs and Jones' own injury problem. LVG had Jones ahead of Smalling coming into his second season before Jones injury woe continued. Had it not for SMalling, the damage narrative is not as big issue. Someone like Wes Brown had his best and fittest season as RB and he did well. He played outstanding as CB in the tie with Barcelona as CB just fine. Again it's about competition and injury problem not so much with FB side effect on young CB reason.

Look else where, we see Sergio Ramos spent seasons (not just makeshift role) as right back before settled back as CB. Same/similar with Puyol, Chiellini, Jerome Boateng...

As I said earlier, look closely into Smalling case we see that the there is more to top Cb nowadays than just defending (which Smalling has not really reached, at least in consistent basis). Perhaps, the answer is simply just that Smalling is not all that

Wes Brown was 28 when he had that season at fullback. He'd already learned to play the centre back role, primarily because coming through as a youngster that's the position he played.

It's not crucial right now because he's so so young but by the time he's 20 it should be narrowed down. A handful of centre backs who initially starred as fullbacks shouldn't change that.

 

[Rozay]

Personally, I'd play him today. He has been just as good at LB as he has at RB for us since his debut, and we have had no outstanding LB candidate so far this season anyway.

He was very easily our best player against Spurs at The Lane last season, and he has the attributes to nullify the Walker threat, and also the speed to take advantage of his inevitable lapses.

 

[khoazany]

When we're talking about damage for young CBs being shunted out wide, I think we let our United bias get the better of ours rational thinking. The prime suspect here is Smalling is technical flaw on ball. Jones limited gametime was that we had better CBs and Jones' own injury problem. LVG had Jones ahead of Smalling coming into his second season before Jones injury woe continued. Had it not for SMalling, the damage narrative is not as big issue. Someone like Wes Brown had his best and fittest season as RB and he did well. He played outstanding as CB in the tie with Barcelona as CB just fine. Again it's about competition and injury problem not so much with FB side effect on young CB reason.

Look else where, we see Sergio Ramos spent seasons (not just makeshift role) as right back before settled back as CB. Same/similar with Puyol, Chiellini, Jerome Boateng...

As I said earlier, look closely into Smalling case we see that the there is more to top Cb nowadays than just defending (which Smalling has not really reached absolute top level, at least in consistent basis). Perhaps, the answer is simply just that Smalling is not all that

Agree. I still find it hilarious that United fans always said "look at Smalling and Jones" or something along that lines when talking about how we shouldn't play young players in more than one position. If anything Smalling and Jones would have been frustrated and left without those game times we gave them at RB and CM and their lack of progression is more due to injuries and their own limit rather than their versatility.

 

[ivaldo]

I agree it is better than Hendersons but not by a million miles. Carricks passing is on a different level as you concur. I think it's not just about Kantes passing his pressing and ability to win the ball back is his key attributes but his passing is very quick and efficient. Herrera is a good player but I'd hope United aim higher as there are better players out there imo.

If you ever needed an example of how underrated Herrera is, including his passing, then just look at his performance today.

 

[Lawman]

If you ever needed an example of how underrated Herrera is, including his passing, then just look at his performance today.

I'm just in from the game he hit the ball out of touch a few times and gave it away a few times. Yes he played a fab through ball for the goal but his passing is hardly under rated on here as he's not a great passer of the ball!