Time to get militant?

[The Irish Connection]

Let's look at it another way -- look at the destination and then work our way backwards -- a logical approach of what our objective is and then how do we get there.

I am also basing my premise on the fact that it will take £6-8billion at least to buy Manchester United. (Chelsea being the current benchmark of £4.3billion.)

Who do we want buying & owning the club? What do they appreciate and not? Then work our way backwards. These are my possibilities:

1. Sovereign funds from the more authoritarian regimes like the Saudis. I bet they won't appreciate militant protests considering that they would like to use United as a white/sportswash platform.
Chinese? Other Middle-Eastern funds? The best case is the Norwegians, Singaporeans sovereign funds but they won't touch United as the revenues are too unstable.

2. So 'benevolent' multi-billionaire like a Bezos. He will strictly look at United as an investment. Say he pays £ 6 billion to take over the club. How will he recover or get an ROI on that investment?
(Forget about Jim Radcliffe isn't rich enough to spend that sort of money unless he cobbles together a bunch of his friends. But Radcliffe doesn't strike me as the sort of billionaire who likes to make consensus-building decisions.)

3. The only ones will be the multi-billionaires who buy United for fun -- like Paul Allen. (Ok he is dead but he spent his billions for fun.) So like the Google Bros. They can afford to spend 6-8billion.
But will they if they see United as a non-fun entity to own? Militant fans, death threats, fire at their front gates or being hassled at car parks.
Will they want to spend their time looking over their shoulders?


Am I missing another type of potential owner?

You are completely wrong.

Firstly, Chelsea were bought for 2.5b with another 1.75 being pledged for squad and infrastructure investment. United’s valuation is between 4 and 5 billion.
Sir Jim Ratcliffe bid 4.25 billion for Chelsea but he is a United fan.

On your bullet points, the Chelsea sale showed that there are numerous groups who would be interested and of course, United are bigger than Chelsea.
There were reports last year that a Malaysian prince Tunku Ismail was interested in buying a large stake. Just because we haven’t heard of them doesn’t mean there aren’t wealthy buyers out there. And again, this is Manchester United.

Sir Jim Ratcliffe could definitely afford us. His net worth is around 21 billion. And he’s a United fan, and he recently said he would consider bidding for us if we were for sale, which is the problem.
Of course, there are other options of say a joint venture where the fans own 25% Ratcliffe owns 50% and another group owns 25%. Just an example. Michael Knighton is currently working on putting a similar bid together with interested parties.

All we want is the owner to clear the debt and not take dividends, especially when the team isn’t doing well. If that had been the case under the glazers, we would have been able to spend an extra billion in the last decade, so that even if we made the odd mistake like maguire, we could afford to move him on quickly at a loss like city and Chelsea do with their dud signings.

We actually wouldn’t even need the buyers to invest another 1.75 m into the team like at Chelse, as without debt repayments, we make enough to be very competitive.

Their debt and dividends and poor decision making is a massive weight around the clubs neck.

We need to put consistent pressure on them from all angles to sell. And about 5 billion would do it. Then Ratcliffe and others will come forward I’m sure of it.

 

[Salwan]

You need an objective and how to get there ie a plan -- that's how you unite the fan base. Otherwise its just a social-validation feedback loop.

Is there a plan?

We are not in disagreement, but IMO everything has to start with a focused information campaign.
you can see it even in this thread - which in theory should include the more knowledgeable fans - too many still don't understand the source of the problem = glazers. now imagine the average joe on twitter or at OT.

otherwise we will lose focus and energy on fighting secondary issues and fighting each other.

 

[Tommy79]

because it would make us look like a bunch of classless idiots?

or because the players themselves aren't at fault for the glazers mismanagement?

or because your actually supposed to support your team?

or because it will achieve nothing other than upset the players we have resulting in a worse performing squad than we have?

Any more so than when they showed up at woodwards front door, or when we got a game called off due to threats of violence, or when just under 50 showed up at the last thrown your toys out of the pram day out, as ask a neutral and that's what it looked like.

Yes the owners are to blame but so are these wasters who have the cheek to call themselves footballers.

There is supporting your team and then there is calling out these useless bunch of prima donnas.

Ah god-damn it, guys we got to stop asap, the poor little darlings might get upset, everything wrong with the modern world is that last sentence. They are grown fecking men and should start acting like it.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

It’s devastating to see this club being ruined brick by brick,layer by layer.It’s depressing and heartbreaking to see this iconic institution being run into the ground.Thinking about the past just makes me feel so sad…I try not to think about the club to be honest.I try to be philosophical and think that our time will come again…But I don’t see any light at the end of the tunnel…Watching United play at the end of the week used to feel so special…Now it just feels horrible to watch us play…

 

[ROFLUTION]

1. Elon is batshit crazy and a media whore. I wouldn't count him as one of the good potential owners.

2. Fan owner seems like a good idea but the worst case scenario we are seeing in Barcelona. The club's in a financial clusterfeck -- and since its a fan-owned club you cant have some rich billionaire swoop down and bail them out.
The problem with fan-owned clubs is that every few years you have elections -- then every president of the club sounds like he is running for election every day. Look at the crap laporta is spewing out now?
If you think United is divided and toxic now, imagine the situation where we are in debt of $1.3 billion and sold out a bunch of your assets?

3. So who has money -- Chinese, Americans and Middle Eastern billionaires. Ratcliffe cant afford to buy United and besides he looks like he runs each of his sporting clubs like its a business -- like the Glazers.

About 2) I completely agree - but this sentiment is also seen through current glasses. We can't really judge the spanish/Barca-Socio owner model fully until we've seen where it ultimately ends and have seen the next 10 years.

One could both argue, that Barca has won extremely much under this model but one could also argue that they could go down the Deportivo La Coruna route where loans have paid for the succes, and then it will all go into shambles (except they maybe are "too big to fail" (07/08 financial crisis reference here, oh yeah).

So I don't think judging them or the fan-owned model currently is something you can do like that. Football is changing, and the new competition from billionaire-states and oligarchs is too, so it's really hard to conclude anything based on the past too. Also the league they play in is different, and the income in future years will also be very different between Premier League and La Liga.

Edit: Then there is also the historical Manchester-side to it, where the industrial revolution started and ended in people joining unions/revolting - so it's somewhat a historical birthplace of this. Somehow learning from this and being part of this history, is another dimension that is different between Spain and Manchester specifically.

 

[Judge Red]

So if united was winning the urge to protest will subside?

Probably. That’s how it usually goes. I always go back to FCUM. Those lot didn’t care about winning or losing, they just refused to fund the Glazers and wait for the heart and soul to be ripped out of the club. They won’t be back until the Glazers are gone.

 

[Green_Red]

Have you a better idea? Don’t you get it? Things are never going to improve as long as these leeches own the club. The way the were allowed buy the club, leveraged buy out, would not be allowed today. Drastic action is needed.

How many tickets have you got that you're willing to sacrifice?

 

[OverratedOpinion]

Militant?

No because it is a game you prat. You sound like the sort of person that shows up at the houses of people who work for the club.

 

[::sonny::]

 

[marcus agrippa]

They've already sold every ticket. They couldn't give a feck if we turn up or not. They have our money, and even if we gave the tickets back there's a queue around the stadium to buy them back up.

It's more complicated than that. They sold tickets for the Liverpool game after the Super League debacle, too, but we all saw their reaction when the game got called off. Optics matter. Arnold himself alluded to this when he sat down with the 1958 fans early this summer: such things spook potential sponsors.

A defeatist attitude where we are beaten even before trying anything means things won't change. Do nothing and we will get just what we deserve.

 

[marcus agrippa]

Let's look at it another way -- look at the destination and then work our way backwards -- a logical approach of what our objective is and then how do we get there.

I am also basing my premise on the fact that it will take £6-8billion at least to buy Manchester United. (Chelsea being the current benchmark of £4.3billion.)

Who do we want buying & owning the club? What do they appreciate and not? Then work our way backwards. These are my possibilities:

1. Sovereign funds from the more authoritarian regimes like the Saudis. I bet they won't appreciate militant protests considering that they would like to use United as a white/sportswash platform.
Chinese? Other Middle-Eastern funds? The best case is the Norwegians, Singaporeans sovereign funds but they won't touch United as the revenues are too unstable.

2. So 'benevolent' multi-billionaire like a Bezos. He will strictly look at United as an investment. Say he pays £ 6 billion to take over the club. How will he recover or get an ROI on that investment?
(Forget about Jim Radcliffe isn't rich enough to spend that sort of money unless he cobbles together a bunch of his friends. But Radcliffe doesn't strike me as the sort of billionaire who likes to make consensus-building decisions.)

3. The only ones will be the multi-billionaires who buy United for fun -- like Paul Allen. (Ok he is dead but he spent his billions for fun.) So like the Google Bros. They can afford to spend 6-8billion.
But will they if they see United as a non-fun entity to own? Militant fans, death threats, fire at their front gates or being hassled at car parks.
Will they want to spend their time looking over their shoulders?


Am I missing another type of potential owner?

Well thought-out post, but I disagree with the bolded bit. There would certainly be a subset of those who'd want to portray themselves as saviours of United, and gain legitimacy that way. We are still a prestigious name, if nothing else. They might think to themselves that all they would need is to run United properly, spend a bit of money, not take any out, etc., and the fans would be onside.

Not that I'd want any part of the Saudi regime, mind you.

 

[Red Star One]

yeah I fecking wish but you just know that if it was indeed to take place it would actually be only 30-50% of fans that'd boycott and we'd be left with a view of a half-empty etihad vibe stadium

 

[Keane's Prawn Sandwich]

It's more complicated than that. They sold tickets for the Liverpool game after the Super League debacle, too, but we all saw their reaction when the game got called off. Optics matter. Arnold himself alluded to this when he sat down with the 1958 fans early this summer: such things spook potential sponsors.

A defeatist attitude where we are beaten even before trying anything means things won't change. Do nothing and we will get just what we deserve.

Exactly my feelings in every aspect. Mass walkouts are needed, look at AC Milan for instance or Valencia last May.

 

[El Presidente]

Do you think these few months is enough to change the structure of the largest football club on earth and have it humming? I'll assume you do by your comment. Insane thing to think

Enough to change the whole structure? No.
Enough to do some actual planning? Certainly. And there was zero planning in our transfer strategy this summer.

 

[Moriarty]

Probably. That’s how it usually goes. I always go back to FCUM. Those lot didn’t care about winning or losing, they just refused to fund the Glazers and wait for the heart and soul to be ripped out of the club. They won’t be back until the Glazers are gone.

I wonder if they would come back after all this time.

 

[Highlyevolved]

Empty Old Trafford for the Liverpool game.

It’s visual, will be broadcast around the world. Too many words are said about this club, so much noise and articles, opinions.

The empty stadium will be a visual, dramatic, powerful statement, that no carefully planned PR release can hide.

It reminds the Glazers that we can hit them in their pockets, it makes sponsors nervous.

It underlines that the club is nothing without the fans.

Said it before, will say it forever. The only language they talk is money. https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...-the-glazers-boycott-a-televised-game.449745/

 

[hp88]

This has been doing the rounds all day, something brewing for sure, reckon we are going to see another cancelled game which in the grand scheme of things most of us happy to miss this game if it sends a message to the Glazers.

The problem we have though is for it have to any real effect we need to do it every week which is going to be virtually impossible.

 

[The Brown Bull]

How many tickets have you got that you're willing to sacrifice?

None. I live in Dublin .Usually make the trip 5 or 6 times a year. Have been a supporter since 68. Right now our club is being destroyed by the Glazers.Something has to be done.

 

[Alonzo]

It might not achieve anything, but i think protests that shit games down are the only way to possibly do so. That, combined with the ESL case going in favour of current leagues, and the sheer scale of investment required, could push these rats to the point where making their big pay day now is as good as it’ll get

 

[Red00012]

The scousers will do that for us within 20 mins no need for a protest

 

[the_cliff]

The scousers will do that for us within 20 mins no need for a protest

There's no way a Liverpool United game will ever be empty.
Getting it cancelled maybe, but empty. Never.

 

[marcus agrippa]

This has been doing the rounds all day, something brewing for sure, reckon we are going to see another cancelled game which in the grand scheme of things most of us happy to miss this game if it sends a message to the Glazers.

The problem we have though is for it have to any real effect we need to do it every week which is going to be virtually impossible.

I agree. Sustaining momentum is what we need. I can only hope we have a core of match-going fans around whom the rest can rally. Maybe I'm being naive, but I can hope.

We can't let up even after improvements on the pitch. It must be clear that this isn't about that. We need these parasites gone.

 

[Will Singh]

What do you think we’ll achieve from the disruption’s you’ve outlined? We could get penalised and have games behind closed doors which won’t effect TV. Do you think a potential buyer might see this as off putting? Btw I’m with you that something has to be done but I don’t think we’ve got enough power to disrupt this cash cow system of the Glazers….!

 

[croadyman]

Now this may seem a knee-jerk reaction (and frankly it might be) but this isn’t about a single result, or a single (lack of) transfer, this is 17yrs of build-up of horrific ownership with only shareholder profits to show for it. I just want to vent my spleen a little, so here goes.

We see journalists all about their cancerous, parasitic ownership of the club, but they (the Glazers) couldn’t give a shit! Avram Glazer was happy to come to Old Trafford yesterday for crying out loud!!! The most effective protests recently were against the ESL when fans interrupted games and sent a clear message. We did this with the postponement of the Liverpool game and pushed it on television across the world.

We need more of this. We need to get the Glazers to sell. What we need is consistent interruption of televised games. I’m talking 5, 10, 15 games, all televised, all with mass pitch invasions or pre-match invasions of the stadium to get games stopped or postponed. Yes this will damage the brand short term, but I believe this would be the only genuine way to put pressure on the Glazers. If TV companies, sponsors, and the League themselves push against the Glazers then we might be able to get them to budge and finally feck off.

Oh how I would love to hear these words from more people in the media but they don't want to say it because doesn't fit agenda at all.

No instead we get stupid ABU's like Souness continually banging on about how much the club has spent since Fergie retired but conveniently ignore how much these yankee leeches have taken out in that time.

British media open your bloody eyes and start reporting this a bit more instead of taking the Glazer dollar BS.

 

[sglowrider]

Well thought-out post, but I disagree with the bolded bit. There would certainly be a subset of those who'd want to portray themselves as saviours of United, and gain legitimacy that way. We are still a prestigious name, if nothing else. They might think to themselves that all they would need is to run United properly, spend a bit of money, not take any out, etc., and the fans would be onside.
Not that I'd want any part of the Saudi regime, mind you.

The Saudis can easily afford to spend £6billion to buy up United as a sportwashing vehicle. But probably didn't see it as a viable option based on the management structure and performance of that period ie under the Woodward regime. A couple of points:

1) I wonder if they regret not making a proper attempt at buying United now considering that the uproar against them buying up the Barcodes was very short lived. Interestingly, they seem to taken a very City-like approach of re-building incrementally rather than throwing in hundreds of millions each window.

2) I wonder if this whole root & branch re-organisation is also a reaction to making United a better selling proposition to any new buyers going forward? (As compared to that under Woodward -- and I am basing this on the premise that I think the Glazers were shopping United out to the Saudis at one stage based on a bunch of reports a few years ago.)

 

[downunder red]

The scousers will do that for us within 20 mins no need for a protest

I was thinking the same thing. If we go down 2 or 3 goals after say 15 minutes, surely it would be a perfect time to get the majority of the fans to walk.

 

[downunder red]

What do you think we’ll achieve from the disruption’s you’ve outlined? We could get penalised and have games behind closed doors which won’t effect TV. Do you think a potential buyer might see this as off putting? Btw I’m with you that something has to be done but I don’t think we’ve got enough power to disrupt this cash cow system of the Glazers….!

Potential games being played behind closed doors would hurt the Glazers. Surely they would have to recompense the fans who have all ready bought tickets.
I think it would send shock waves through the board room. I'm even getting a semi just thinking about it.
As for potential buyers, they would know that the protests would disappear once the parasites have gone.

 

[sglowrider]

Potential games being played behind closed doors would hurt the Glazers. Surely they would have to recompense the fans who have all ready bought tickets.
I think it would send shock waves through the board room. I'm even getting a semi just thinking about it.
As for potential buyers, they would know that the protests would disappear once the parasites have gone.

Not sure that will be the impression. How do you balance between getting an ROI and what fans' perception of good ownership?
Any future owner can be accused of being 'parasites' if the results don't go our way or we didn't spend £200million every summer.

Then this again?

 

[Waynne]

Supporting this club for 30+ years

I'm always looking at the brighter side of things but the last 24 hours have rammed home how screwed the club management is.

The final straw for me is the club pulling out of the Arnautovic deal because of negative fan and media backlash. How is this club swayed by outside sources? Do they have board members on this forum?

It's quite damning, all of it.

 

[downunder red]

Not sure that will be the impression. How do you balance between getting an ROI and what fans' perception of good ownership?
Any future owner can be accused of being 'parasites' if the results don't go our way or we didn't spend £200million every summer.

Then this again?

Yeah fair enough but I don't think new owners are going to give us 15 years of what the Glazers have given us. I don't think the fans are expecting $200 million a year every summer. We basically want to be run like a football club again.

 

[klayton88]

I say a mass 'tut' every minute for 90 minutes

 

[marcus agrippa]

What do you think we’ll achieve from the disruption’s you’ve outlined? We could get penalised and have games behind closed doors which won’t effect TV. Do you think a potential buyer might see this as off putting? Btw I’m with you that something has to be done but I don’t think we’ve got enough power to disrupt this cash cow system of the Glazers….!

Nah. What you're talking about is short-term pain. We have to take the long view here. Wishful thinking perhaps, but I believe that's what it takes to get rid of these. IMO if we're gonna have to bleed a little, so be it. We are already being bled dry here, so we might as well use it to get something back.

And I doubt it won't affect TV. Besides, what the Glazers are worried about, judging by what Arnold said to The 1958, is how it affects sponsors. Do you think sponsors would want to be associated with such turbulence? They will baulk. I keep coming back to this because it bears repeating: when the fans stormed the pitch and got the game against Liverpool postponed we got an immediate - and strong - reaction. That should tell you something. That's where we need to poke.

I also doubt potential buyers will be put off by that. They weren't in the case of Liverpool, AC Milan, etc. They'll just know the ground rules re: treating the club and its fans with respect.

 

[marcus agrippa]

Not sure that will be the impression. How do you balance between getting an ROI and what fans' perception of good ownership?
Any future owner can be accused of being 'parasites' if the results don't go our way or we didn't spend £200million every summer.

Then this again?

This is an unfair characterization. We are talking about an ownership model so reviled and infamous that it's become forbidden; that there was even an 'anti-Glazer' clause inserted into the agreement Boelhy and his consortium entered into to purchase Chelsea. Unfortunately, the most prestigious and biggest club in England became a test case of how not to purchase a football club.

I'd say the terms of what not to do would be pretty self-evident to any potential owner. Indeed, it would be law.

 

[sglowrider]

This is an unfair characterization. We are talking about an ownership model so reviled and infamous that it's become forbidden; that there was even an 'anti-Glazer' clause inserted into the agreement Boelhy and his consortium entered into to purchase Chelsea. Unfortunately, the most prestigious and biggest club in England became a test case of how not to purchase a football club.

I'd say the terms of what not to do would be pretty self-evident to any potential owner. Indeed, it would be law.

The reality is that there has never been an owner that United fans have been happy with.

The Edwards were always accused of being cheap and unwilling to invest. Then people were all up in arms about potentially Murdoch taking over and then the Irish Mafia and then the Glazers. Knighton is now a laughing stock for his attempt.

Tbh the gold standard for club owner's investment, performance and fan support is -- Roman Abramovich despite the accusation of financial doping etc levelled on the club early on.

But this leads us to another different sets of questions.

 

[MUFC OK]

Supporting this club for 30+ years

I'm always looking at the brighter side of things but the last 24 hours have rammed home how screwed the club management is.

The final straw for me is the club pulling out of the Arnautovic deal because of negative fan and media backlash. How is this club swayed by outside sources? Do they have board members on this forum?

It's quite damning, all of it.

Not sure I follow that. Why shouldn’t the club be able to do that, especially with the racism incident and with fans writing to the club asking not to sign him. Would be even more tone deaf to persist with the signing.

 

[MalaysianRed7]

We all know that if we beat Brentford and announce a signing like SMS before the Liverpool, the stadium will be packed out again. Even if we lose to Brentford and sign no one, I’m sure there’ll still be at least 60000 people there.

 

[::sonny::]

 

[hellhunter]

We all know that if we beat Brentford and announce a signing like SMS before the Liverpool, the stadium will be packed out again. Even if we lose to Brentford and sign no one, I’m sure there’ll still be at least 60000 people there.

What do you mean? It will be 75.000 no matter who we sign and regardless what happens in Brentford

 

[McTerminator]

It'll simply never get to that point. People just don't care enough to damage the team long term.

Look at the melt downs when we lose just 1 game, or can't complete a transfer for FDJ.

You think fans will want that over the next 5 years?

I’m going to catch so much stick for this, but people will probably just support a better run club in greater and greater numbers as time goes on, rather than fight a losing battle to reanimate the corpse of United.

 

[MalaysianRed7]

What do you mean? It will be 75.000 no matter who we sign and regardless what happens in Brentford

I was being optimistic, but yes you are probably right. The social media movement that’s going on now is a straw for us to clutch on to though.