Thomas Müller

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Lagger said:
That's the thing about Müller though, isn't it? Ronaldo is spectacular and everyone looks at him. So, the best way to counter a team with Ronaldo in it, since they pretty much all build a team around his glory, is to just counter Ronaldo. Germany has shown it with Portugal time and again, Bayern gave Real a good run for their money, too, simply by taking Ronaldo out of the game.

With Müller, however, it's not that simple. He's not spectacular, he always has other players around him that are more "shiny" and draw more attention than him. So, do you take Müller out of the game? Most people would think you're bonkers. And he's also outsmarting 90% of the defenders on the pitch in any given game, it's harder to keep Müller contained than Ronaldo. Ronaldo will start getting frustrated after 10 minutes of not getting one pass through to him, Müller will just adapt and wait somewhere else for a pass to reach him. That's his strength. He's not as fast as Bale, he's not as good a shot as Ronaldo or Kroos, he's not as good a dribbler as Messi or Neymar... but he's free or creates space for other players, he constantly puts defenders into a difficult spot with difficult decisions... guard the open space so Robben doesn't break through or run after Müller who is off again on one of his treks...
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Ah, so he learned this football lark in a library/classroom as opposed to the streets and parks of Munich.
 
He's fantastic. Would much prefer him over Bale (and I rate Bale). Muller would be the best player in the PL if he came to England.

No chance of that happening though. *sigh*
 
sullydnl said:
He's fantastic. Would much prefer him over Bale (and I rate Bale). Muller would be the best player in the PL if he came to England.

No chance of that happening though. *sigh*
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Next summer :devil:
 
Rozay said:
I'm sure some would argue that Mueller is a better player than Bale.

For me, the thing is I just don't see the qualities that would almosy single-handedly transform an attack - in the manner that Ronaldo, Bale, Robben etc could.

Again, while I appreciate that I cannot argue with his record, and the fact that he has done it at every level - if I was a centre-half, of average ability perhaps - I don't think the prospect of facing Thomas Mueller would 'frighten' me. It's also the issue I have with Rooney. He wouldn't scare me in the slightest. Somehow, Mueller will still probably score a tap-in and everyone would be proved right, but I still can't help the feeling.

When we were after him in the summer, what I see as fairly unspectacular ability caused me to have doubts as to whether he could come in and score the same 20+ plus goals here. It's one thing playing for Germany and Bayern, but we can't create anything. If we were signing Bale, I can see where the difference is going to come from.

I'll say again though, his record is such that I'd have no issue with us signing him, simply because I've lost all faith in Rooney to deliver and you can't say no to someone who is scoring goals. But he'd be well down my list of players I'd pick to lift our attack, even discounting Messi and Ronaldo.
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That's the whole point though. Muller does not have the same gravitas that Ronaldo does and so, where some teams might double up on Ronaldo, Messi and even Hazard this season, Muller can go about his business, drift around the pitch and find spaces. His movement is excellent and very rarely does he pass up a chance if given to him. Take the Newcastle game the other week. He would've finished one of the many chances we had. Take the Swansea game...he would've scored the chance Rooney had in the last 5 minutes.

Yes, there might be better players out there but not many that would be attainable...
 
Rozay said:
I'm sure some would argue that Mueller is a better player than Bale.

For me, the thing is I just don't see the qualities that would almosy single-handedly transform an attack - in the manner that Ronaldo, Bale, Robben etc could.

Again, while I appreciate that I cannot argue with his record, and the fact that he has done it at every level - if I was a centre-half, of average ability perhaps - I don't think the prospect of facing Thomas Mueller would 'frighten' me. It's also the issue I have with Rooney. He wouldn't scare me in the slightest. Somehow, Mueller will still probably score a tap-in and everyone would be proved right, but I still can't help the feeling.

When we were after him in the summer, what I see as fairly unspectacular ability caused me to have doubts as to whether he could come in and score the same 20+ plus goals here. It's one thing playing for Germany and Bayern, but we can't create anything. If we were signing Bale, I can see where the difference is going to come from.

I'll say again though, his record is such that I'd have no issue with us signing him, simply because I've lost all faith in Rooney to deliver and you can't say no to someone who is scoring goals. But he'd be well down my list of players I'd pick to lift our attack, even discounting Messi and Ronaldo.
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If Messi and Ronaldo singlehandidly transform an attack, why can´t they win shit with their national teams, when they have elite talent around them, just not top 5 players at every position? Messi didn´t do anything in the knockout stages of three World Cups despite having elite talent around him. Portugal can´t even get past Jamaica´s b**** America.

40 years after Gerd there is another Muller whose underappreciated brilliance is in the gangly simplicity with which he impacts games.
 
JustFootballFan said:
If Messi and Ronaldo singlehandidly transform an attack, why can´t they win shit with their national teams, when they have elite talent around them, just not top 5 players at every position? Messi didn´t do anything in the knockout stages of three World Cups despite having elite talent around him. Portugal can´t even get past Jamaica´s b**** America.

40 years after Gerd there is another Muller whose underappreciated brilliance is in the gangly simplicity with which he impacts games.
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Well because they can single-handedly transform their team's attack obviously doesn't mean their team will beat the other team.

Gerd was not underappreciated either. He is not rated alongside the likes of Cruijff and Maradona because he wasn't as good as them. There's no conspiracy there, and I doubt a lack of football intellect either. It appears that the ability to 'find space' doesn't score as many points as some seem to think.
 
Balu said:
I won't say it, just let me know once it happened ;).
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Haha, I will. But not the first time I've heard words on the lines of 'one day you'll realise how amazing he is' from a Muller fan. :D I mean I know watching someone in the flesh is always a different experience, but it's not like I've not been observing Thomas when watching Munich/Germany games already, which have been the headliners in the past few years and difficult to miss anyway. I doubt it will tell anything that I don't know already, like I told you I acknowledge all his qualities that you talk about, except I don't see them being exceptional to the extent some think they are, that is all. :)
 
sullydnl said:
He's fantastic. Would much prefer him over Bale (and I rate Bale). Muller would be the best player in the PL if he came to England.

No chance of that happening though. *sigh*
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I'd prefer him over Bale, Ronaldo and any real player honestly. He's just brilliant.
 
Aldo said:
Nah, don't be fooled by those who come and tell you they can see 'things not obvious' in him that others can't or any other such tripe. There's no such thing. He's also not the cleverest man to kick a ball in the game's history, or other such hyperboles.
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But he's very clever. Gameplay - and the game in general- evolves so comparisons across eras are bit pointless.
 
Incredibly intelligent player.

He's what Harry Kane aspires to be. Watching him live yesterday and he's just magnificent.
 
Lawman said:
Why is it dumb?
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Because in the last 15 years, we sold exactly two players we wanted to keep. One was Ballack, who's contract ran out and who clearly didn't want to stay. But still, we rejected Manchester Uniteds offer in 2005 and only finally lost him to Chelsea in 2006. The other was Hargeaves. Well, at least initally we wanted to keep him, rejecting Manchesters offer in 2006 until giving in 2007. But that was after he was injured for most of the last season and there is still a shaodw of doubt whether we might knew about the seriousness of his injuries and screwed you over.

We kept Lahm over all the years, we rejected absolutely insane money for Ribéry in 2010, who wanted to leave and was outright told by the club they wouldn't allow this. We never even got tempted to accept offers for Schweinsteiger or Lahm (both of which admittedly never wanted to leave) and only lost Kroos because we simply didn't want to offer him the money he wanted. It's pretty clear he would've stayed otherwise.

So now, we have a club who only ever really lost one player who was crucial for for the team and that's one who wanted to leave and ran his contract down.
And a player, Thomas Müller, homegrown by this club, grown up in the region with wife and kids also born in the region. He's a club legend at the age of 25, with former club one of the top 3 in the world with the chance to win the Champions League every season. He never expressed any wish to leave the club, publicly stating he would extend till 2020 if necessary and saying in 2010 that if he could subsribe a contract guaranteeing he weould end his carreer at Bayern Munich, he would outright do it.

So, it's dumb because it's a waste of paper and energy.
This thread has been ridicoulus for a while because there has been no indication whatsoever this deal might materialise in any given future. It's just "we have so much money and are the mighty Manchester United, let's try this shit" by some of the less sane members of this forum.
 
fcbforever said:
Because in the last 15 years, we sold exactly two players we wanted to keep. One was Ballack, who's contract ran out and who clearly didn't want to stay. But still, we rejected Manchester Uniteds offer in 2005 and only finally lost him to Chelsea in 2006. The other was Hargeaves. Well, at least initally we wanted to keep him, rejecting Manchesters offer in 2006 until giving in 2007. But that was after he was injured for most of the last season and there is still a shaodw of doubt whether we might knew about the seriousness of his injuries and screwed you over.

We kept Lahm over all the years, we rejected absolutely insane money for Ribéry in 2010, who wanted to leave and was outright told by the club they wouldn't allow this. We never even got tempted to accept offers for Schweinsteiger or Lahm (both of which admittedly never wanted to leave) and only lost Kroos because we simply didn't want to offer him the money he wanted. It's pretty clear he would've stayed otherwise.

So now, we have a club who only ever really lost one player who was crucial for for the team and that's one who wanted to leave and ran his contract down.
And a player, Thomas Müller, homegrown by this club, grown up in the region with wife and kids also born in the region. He's a club legend at the age of 25, with former club one of the top 3 in the world with the chance to win the Champions League every season. He never expressed any wish to leave the club, publicly stating he would extend till 2020 if necessary and saying in 2010 that if he could subsribe a contract guaranteeing he weould end his carreer at Bayern Munich, he would outright do it.

So, it's dumb because it's a waste of paper and energy.
This thread has been ridicoulus for a while because there has been no indication whatsoever this deal might materialise in any given future. It's just "we have so much money and are the mighty Manchester United, let's try this shit" by some of the less sane members of this forum.
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And breathe...... Ha ha if we are bidding an unprecedented £100m (way more than his value) then surely it's a question worth asking? So why is it dumb to ask? Because you say so? Every player has his price even Muller.
 
Lagger said:
With Müller, however, it's not that simple. He's not spectacular, he always has other players around him that are more "shiny" and draw more attention than him. So, do you take Müller out of the game? Most people would think you're bonkers. And he's also outsmarting 90% of the defenders on the pitch in any given game, it's harder to keep Müller contained than Ronaldo. Ronaldo will start getting frustrated after 10 minutes of not getting one pass through to him, Müller will just adapt and wait somewhere else for a pass to reach him. That's his strength. He's not as fast as Bale, he's not as good a shot as Ronaldo or Kroos, he's not as good a dribbler as Messi or Neymar... but he's free or creates space for other players, he constantly puts defenders into a difficult spot with difficult decisions... guard the open space so Robben doesn't break through or run after Müller who is off again on one of his treks...
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That's a pretty good analysis and that's where the dividing line of opinion is for me (and others I guess).

Will he still be able to be as effective if he was the number 1, 2 or 3 option? I'm not saying he's not at the moment but like you said other teams aren't marking him tightly/he's able to make space because others are creating it (by being marked tighter/them controlling possession).

In a Utd team he would have to be the number 1 or 2 option if we get him for the kind of money being thrown around. The team will actively look to play the ball to his feet and expect something to happen. It seems to me that his main weapons are off the ball intelligence, great link up play and clinicalness; don't these rely on having a great team unit AND dominant players in other positions?

It's sort of like some people's hesitency with Pedro (although in his case he is more orthodox and direct) because how good will they be once they're the main outlet?*

I guess it's a philosophy thing. At this time in moment I'd prefer to have one more individually dominant player (that we can add all over the pitch) i.e in this case I'd have Bale over Muller (although not sure if that's a ludicrous comparison because of their differing styles or the similar money that's being quoted for them two) and build a team that way than having a team full of great team players with utilitarian skillsets.

Undoubtedly he would improve our team but if it was a Bale or Muller, I'd go Bale everyday.


Saying that I thought Di Maria would be our answer to my dream Utd attacking play. I guess no amount of preferences and logical thinking can be 'justified' unless it's shared by the manager.
 
There is no Robben and Ribery in the German team. And he does not have less goals or assists when they are missing at Bayern.

For Germany everybody knows that he is the guy to stop... but... in the last 2 years he has a goal or an assist about every 70 or 75 minutes in the competitive matches....

Some of the German coaches say he makes them headaches in their match preparations... there is a recipe for Robbery and even for Lewy... not for Mueller.
 
fcbforever said:
Because in the last 15 years, we sold exactly two players we wanted to keep. One was Ballack, who's contract ran out and who clearly didn't want to stay. But still, we rejected Manchester Uniteds offer in 2005 and only finally lost him to Chelsea in 2006. The other was Hargeaves. Well, at least initally we wanted to keep him, rejecting Manchesters offer in 2006 until giving in 2007. But that was after he was injured for most of the last season and there is still a shaodw of doubt whether we might knew about the seriousness of his injuries and screwed you over.

We kept Lahm over all the years, we rejected absolutely insane money for Ribéry in 2010, who wanted to leave and was outright told by the club they wouldn't allow this. We never even got tempted to accept offers for Schweinsteiger or Lahm (both of which admittedly never wanted to leave) and only lost Kroos because we simply didn't want to offer him the money he wanted. It's pretty clear he would've stayed otherwise.

So now, we have a club who only ever really lost one player who was crucial for for the team and that's one who wanted to leave and ran his contract down.
And a player, Thomas Müller, homegrown by this club, grown up in the region with wife and kids also born in the region. He's a club legend at the age of 25, with former club one of the top 3 in the world with the chance to win the Champions League every season. He never expressed any wish to leave the club, publicly stating he would extend till 2020 if necessary and saying in 2010 that if he could subsribe a contract guaranteeing he weould end his carreer at Bayern Munich, he would outright do it.

So, it's dumb because it's a waste of paper and energy.
This thread has been ridicoulus for a while because there has been no indication whatsoever this deal might materialise in any given future. It's just "we have so much money and are the mighty Manchester United, let's try this shit" by some of the less sane members of this forum.
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So you're saying there is a chance.
 
Rozay said:
Ah, so he learned this football lark in a library/classroom as opposed to the streets and parks of Munich.
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How on earth did you get from "he is intelligent" to "he learnt football in a library"? :wenger:
 
Rozay said:
I said they were 'shit world class players', not shit players, although Rooney is getting close to even that title to be honest. I know what I expect to see from a world class forward, and it isn't what I see when I watch them, numbers or not.
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You didn't see it from Rooney in his prime (i.e. 2008 - 2012?) I can't say that I agree with you on that one.
 
Swaters16 said:
He's also saying they lost Kroos because they wouldn't pay him. So...
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Well, we did. There were intense negotiations for about half a year in which it became clear wie wouldn't pay him the money he wanted before any links to Madrid materialized. Still the right decision in my mind. Only problem was that Alonso wasn't the right addition to the squad afterwards.

To the one who qouted me before you: 2 players in 15 years. But both clearly and publicly expressed they wanted to leave. And even then we put up a fight. We learned from this, since these days, we are extending contracts earlier.
 
jem said:
You didn't see it from Rooney in his prime (i.e. 2008 - 2012?) I can't say that I agree with you on that one.
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Rooney, or any of the rest of us, are not living in 2008-12. He is currently a shit World Class player. Of the elite forward players in the world, he is probably the worst, and has the least amount of stardust in his game. If we're talking about the past, then yea, I saw special things in Rooney well before 2008 even. Now I see an average player in a very expensive coat.
 
Santiago_KinderBueno said:
Muller is one of my favourite players. Saying that; I think we still have the ability to find a player in our ranks that can be to us what thumas muller is to bayern. A player in the right place always at the right time.
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I think Jesse Lingard has similar traits to Thomas Mueller personally. I don't see him as what I would call a 'special' attacking talent either tbh, but he can certainly be an efficient one.
 
Rozay said:
Rooney, or any of the rest of us, are not living in 2008-12. He is currently a shit World Class player. Of the elite forward players in the world, he is probably the worst, and has the least amount of stardust in his game. If we're talking about the past, then yea, I saw special things in Rooney well before 2008 even. Now I see an average player in a very expensive coat.
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Get your point. For me, he's not world class anymore (bit of a subjective/vague term, but whatever,) so I assumed you were referring to the time when he was at the level. For me, when he was at that level, he wasn't just efficient; he was also great to watch.
 
jem said:
Get your point. For me, he's not world class anymore (bit of a subjective/vague term, but whatever,) so I assumed you were referring to the time when he was at the level. For me, when he was at that level, he wasn't just efficient; he was also great to watch.
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I agree. If anything, he was more entertaining than he was efficient (opposite of Mueller if you like). His reputation as a young player was never for him simply putting up huge numbers. Rooney was known as an exciting player first and foremost, and someone who frightens defenders.
 
Joga Bonito said:
So you're saying there is a chance.
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Well not really, as fcbforever explained it a little wrong imo. Bayern didn't 'sell' Ballack. He just went out of contract and left us for free. And something like this will not happen with Müller in near future.

Kroos and Hargreaves would be the only exceptions, though Kroos shouldn't count aswell as his contract was running out and he was asking for wages Bayern didn't want to pay.

That leaves us with Hargreaves as the only player Bayern sold even if they didn't want. Apart from that he was not really an regular starter for Bayern anyways, they obviously made an exception to fulfil his wish to move to his dreamclub in his home country. Something like that will not happen with Müller as he is playing at home for his favorite club already.
 
Footballers like to try new things and test themselves in different leagues. As I said before in here even the likes of Giggs considered in there prime a move abroad to try a different league.

Bayern fans seem to be of the opinion he won't go but I wouldn't be so sure. One thing though having him on a contract or saying Bayern won't sell is not going to be what decides things, it will be down to what Muller wants. In these days players have too much power and it means contracts and what clubs want might get you an extra season out a player but in the long term if a player wants a move badly enough he will get it.

We've planted the seed anyway, the only good I take from this is if he does decide he'd like to try a new country and better league we should hopefully be first in line.
 
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