Television Tho Prop Grops Throps

Forbidden door is the wrong show to criticise for lack of build. The whole point is to put on dream matches that long time fans want to see. And you can absolutely tell stories in the ring as we'll likely see tomorrow night. Omega v Osprey already have the best match of the year and will likely top it again.

Also quite interested to see if Punk puts over Hobbs or Starks in this Owen tournament. If I recall they were both quite loyal to him so you'd think he'd want to put one of them over in the final.
 
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CassiusClaymore said:
Last one was a bit flat. Crowd were wiped after Ospreay v Omega which should have gone on last.

Was Danielson legit injured there with his arm?
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Despite the crowd being mostly tired, they still got it going. I, personally, got very sick in that final match and was struggling to hold myself up at the end (mostly my fault).

Overall, that show was one of the best entertainment events I've ever attended live (includes all sporting events). That was well worth the 5 hours.
 
Ospreay V Omega to me is the 2nd best wrestling match of all time. And elevates Ospreay to 3rd in the All time list.
 
paulscholes18 said:
Ospreay V Omega to me is the 2nd best wrestling match of all time. And elevates Ospreay to 3rd in the All time list.
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…. Is your top 3 just Omega, Okada and Ospreay then? Seems mental to me that, but I guess you have no importance on doing it with the most eyes on you.
 
CassiusClaymore said:
Last one was a bit flat. Crowd were wiped after Ospreay v Omega which should have gone on last.

Was Danielson legit injured there with his arm?
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Yeah it really should have headlined (though then you have the issue of the IWGP US Title headlining a show instead of the IWGP Heavyweight title - which I don't think is an issue but can see others not wanting to do that)

But yeah great show - only criticism would be the pacing of it - Think you could get rid of a couple off the main (Like I don't think MJF needed to defend his title here) and off the Pre-Show and you have a much tighter show.
 
Is it Tony who books Forbidden Door? New Japan usually gets wiped in this. Should have really had a big star job for the NJ title out of courtesy
 
Zen said:
…. Is your top 3 just Omega, Okada and Ospreay then? Seems mental to me that, but I guess you have no importance on doing it with the most eyes on you.
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So your criteria for top matches is they have to be big WWE pay per views? :confused: All of these had objectively large crowds and were on big events
 
Personal preference maybe but to me for a match to be greatest of all time it would need to have some kind of story/build to it which the match then plays out to, so there's a reason to actually be invested. E.g. Michaels vs Undertaker Hell in a cell or their later match at Mania...lame examples maybe but that was proper edge of your seat stuff because there was a story there and things riding on it.

Not that I don't enjoy a lot of the AEW matches in general, but I think this is one area where they nearly always fall a bit flat. Or rather don't reach the heights they could, because in some cases the actual wrestling side of it is genuinely fantastic, but hampered by the fact there's really no reason to care who will win, or how.
 
noodlehair said:
Personal preference maybe but to me for a match to be greatest of all time it would need to have some kind of story/build to it which the match then plays out to, so there's a reason to actually be invested. E.g. Michaels vs Undertaker Hell in a cell or their later match at Mania...lame examples maybe but that was proper edge of your seat stuff because there was a story there and things riding on it.

Not that I don't enjoy a lot of the AEW matches in general, but I think this is one area where they nearly always fall a bit flat. Or rather don't reach the heights they could, because in some cases the actual wrestling side of it is genuinely fantastic, but hampered by the fact there's really no reason to care who will win, or how.
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You can't have an opinion or a preference with the smarks lurking around looking for something.

The truth is that even with the big crowds AEW haven't been able to create that feel of something big. You can't compete with the wwe and try to replicate them as you'll always be the second best with 1/10th the resources.

The only promotion that was able to have that feel was WCW in the 90s.
 
Absolute nonsense. People can like whatever they like.

Hell there's people in the Glastonbury thread trying to pretend that Elton John doesn't sound like Vic Reeves singing in the club style but whatever...
 
noodlehair said:
Personal preference maybe but to me for a match to be greatest of all time it would need to have some kind of story/build to it which the match then plays out to, so there's a reason to actually be invested. E.g. Michaels vs Undertaker Hell in a cell or their later match at Mania...lame examples maybe but that was proper edge of your seat stuff because there was a story there and things riding on it.

Not that I don't enjoy a lot of the AEW matches in general, but I think this is one area where they nearly always fall a bit flat. Or rather don't reach the heights they could, because in some cases the actual wrestling side of it is genuinely fantastic, but hampered by the fact there's really no reason to care who will win, or how.
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You're completely correct, to be really great a match needs more riding on it than winning, even with a championship on the line there has to be some build up. Most football matches will have more animosity than most of the matches at Forbidden Door.

I enjoyed the Omega vs Ospreay for what it was, as both guys are great at making moves look hard hitting and nothing looked out of place (except for one spot where Omega was folded over the ropes for about 15 seconds waiting for a flip to land on him), but nothing was riding on it other than a title they're both above.

Shane88 said:
That's just sloppy and dangerous.
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Completely agreed, these are 2 guys who shouldn't need to be that dangerous in order to put on a good match.
 
Ekeke said:
So your criteria for top matches is they have to be big WWE pay per views? :confused: All of these had objectively large crowds and were on big events
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Are your top 3 of all time Omega, Okada and Ospreay?
 
noodlehair said:
Personal preference maybe but to me for a match to be greatest of all time it would need to have some kind of story/build to it which the match then plays out to, so there's a reason to actually be invested. E.g. Michaels vs Undertaker Hell in a cell or their later match at Mania...lame examples maybe but that was proper edge of your seat stuff because there was a story there and things riding on it.

Not that I don't enjoy a lot of the AEW matches in general, but I think this is one area where they nearly always fall a bit flat. Or rather don't reach the heights they could, because in some cases the actual wrestling side of it is genuinely fantastic, but hampered by the fact there's really no reason to care who will win, or how.
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So for Ospreay and Omega they do have a story. Its a bit harder because its interpromotional and they're both doing shows in different countries. But it is tied together. It all starts when Omega left NJPW and spoke to Ospreay, told him that he will be filling Omega's shoes as the foreign wrestler main event with the great matches. All very nice, despite NJPW and Omega having a bad break with NJPW trying to cancel their sponsorship for Omega's visa in Japan, so he couldnt work in the country anymore unless he got one from somewhere else.

But then down the line Ospreay is having great matches in NJPW, but he had a match people loved and talked about in Rev Pro in England, an indie. Omega gave his opinion that doing it on the big stage in front of lots of people rather than a few hundred means something, like the tokyo dome etc. so they had some comments back and forth online. Ospreay was pissed because sticking with NJPW during the pandemic, with no crowds doing their quarantine rules etc was hell for him and felt he was doing what Omega had said when he left, and now he's making disrespectful comments online.

Finally audiences return in Japan and they have the Omega Vs. Ospreay match. Its the old top foreigner vs the new one who filled his shoes and theres a grudge due to the disrespect. Omega went there and beat him leaving him a bloody mess.

Ospreay Vs. Omega 2, Ospreay came and attacked Omega from behind setting up the run back where Ospreay wanted revenge, for the title.

Again this is an interpromotional story that spans years and several matches. So its certainly tougher. But there was a story that took the match to another level.

Danielson and Okada yeah, that was just a challenge from 2 of the wrestlers talked about as the best in the world having a dream match. There were disrespectful comments from Danielson at least to give it something but not a full fleshed out storyline. I'm pretty sure they'll run it back in the future, so this will be more like the beginning of the story when it has all transpired. So the next one will be built up better now they have some history, the break, the danielson win etc.
 
Scottynaldinho said:
You can't have an opinion or a preference with the smarks lurking around looking for something.

The truth is that even with the big crowds AEW haven't been able to create that feel of something big. You can't compete with the wwe and try to replicate them as you'll always be the second best with 1/10th the resources.

The only promotion that was able to have that feel was WCW in the 90s.
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Completely agree with this. They don't have any standout "moments" for me that'll go down in wrestling history. I suspect they will one day, but haven't thus far imo.
 
Ekeke said:
So for Ospreay and Omega they do have a story. Its a bit harder because its interpromotional and they're both doing shows in different countries. But it is tied together. It all starts when Omega left NJPW and spoke to Ospreay, told him that he will be filling Omega's shoes as the foreign wrestler main event with the great matches. All very nice, despite NJPW and Omega having a bad break with NJPW trying to cancel their sponsorship for Omega's visa in Japan, so he couldnt work in the country anymore unless he got one from somewhere else.

But then down the line Ospreay is having great matches in NJPW, but he had a match people loved and talked about in Rev Pro in England, an indie. Omega gave his opinion that doing it on the big stage in front of lots of people rather than a few hundred means something, like the tokyo dome etc. so they had some comments back and forth online. Ospreay was pissed because sticking with NJPW during the pandemic, with no crowds doing their quarantine rules etc was hell for him and felt he was doing what Omega had said when he left, and now he's making disrespectful comments online.

Finally audiences return in Japan and they have the Omega Vs. Ospreay match. Its the old top foreigner vs the new one who filled his shoes and theres a grudge due to the disrespect. Omega went there and beat him leaving him a bloody mess.

Ospreay Vs. Omega 2, Ospreay came and attacked Omega from behind setting up the run back where Ospreay wanted revenge, for the title.

Again this is an interpromotional story that spans years and several matches. So its certainly tougher. But there was a story that took the match to another level.

Danielson and Okada yeah, that was just a challenge from 2 of the wrestlers talked about as the best in the world having a dream match. There were disrespectful comments from Danielson at least to give it something but not a full fleshed out storyline. I'm pretty sure they'll run it back in the future, so this will be more like the beginning of the story when it has all transpired. So the next one will be built up better now they have some history, the break, the danielson win etc.
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I’ve not watched but I’m guessing the point is, what did AEW did to showcase that story? Or is it expected all will have that prior knowledge, which the more casual observers obviously won’t.
 
Stevondo8 said:
I’ve not watched but I’m guessing the point is, what did AEW did to showcase that story? Or is it expected all will have that prior knowledge, which the more casual observers obviously won’t.
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A couple of videos, but more buildup for the first 1 - which was then the setup for the 2nd one. And Ospreay attacking Omega in a main event
 
Stevondo8 said:
I’ve not watched but I’m guessing the point is, what did AEW did to showcase that story? Or is it expected all will have that prior knowledge, which the more casual observers obviously won’t.
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Not much. There was a run in on the go home show but it was a 37 man clusterfeck so didn’t stand out.
From what I see they expect you to know about these outside feuds and history. It asks too much which explains the ratings on the run up of both shows over the two years but that’s the expectation anyway imo
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Okay? Wasn't a criticism per se was just stating an opinion...
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I know but it's kind of moot. Let's be honest all of the standout "wrestling" moments are going to be WWF/WWE ones with the possible exception of Scott Hall showing up on WCW. I assume if you asked someone from Japan theirs it probably wouldn't contain any American ones at all.

Point is you can't compare a company with 4 years of history to ones with 40 (of being on tv). It's like comparing apples and oranges. I don't think AEW is ever going to be the juggernaut that WWE was and still is.

Anyway as a conversation starter I'd say that crazy crowd pop when at the start of the Omega v Danielson match is my AEW #1.

For WWE it would be Montreal Screwjob, Hogan v Warrior, Rock v Hogan, Mankind off the cage, Hart v Austin, Austin KoR speech off the top of my head.
 
cyberman said:
Not much. There was a run in on the go home show but it was a 37 man clusterfeck so didn’t stand out.
From what I see they expect you to know about these outside feuds and history. It asks too much which explains the ratings on the run up of both shows over the two years but that’s the expectation anyway imo
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Well duh, yeah for a show that was co-promoted with NJPW there is an expectation there that most of the people watching would be aware that Omega and Ospreay had wrestled each other in Japan at the start of the year with Omega winning and yes there were video packages put together for people who haven't watched it. Like I said earlier Forbidden Door is it's own thing. It's supposed to be a showcase of the best wrestlers in both promotions. That's the hook.
 
SalfordRed18 said:
Completely agree with this. They don't have any standout "moments" for me that'll go down in wrestling history. I suspect they will one day, but haven't thus far imo.
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As a "casual" fan at best I would say that the CM Punk debut was an awesome wrestling "moment" to be fair and is what rekindled my interest in wrestling after a good 5/10 year period of indifference.

*Edited to add*

Cornette (one of AEWs most outspoken critics) on the debut;

"It wasn't how I would have done it, it was better, it was perfect".

 
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CassiusClaymore said:
Well duh, yeah for a show that was co-promoted with NJPW there is an expectation there that most of the people watching would be aware that Omega and Ospreay had wrestled each other in Japan at the start of the year with Omega winning and yes there were video packages put together for people who haven't watched it. Like I said earlier Forbidden Door is it's own thing. It's supposed to be a showcase of the best wrestlers in both promotions. That's the hook.
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Duh? The poster just asked a question and I answered it? There’s really no need to be so snippy.
Forbidden Door wasn’t the focus of AEW, it’s understandable how under sold it was. There was something like 12 matches and only 3 odd were actually announced 3 days before the event
 
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