Television Tho Prop Grops Throps

[The Hilton]

There is a bit of the Rock/Stone Cold gimmick but he's definitely better than a lot on the mic.

I hope Logan doesn't win it. It would make a mockery of the qualifying tournament they had and he just waltzes in. I imagine he's there for the high flying stuff in the match.

Oh yeah I'm not saying it's a bad thing, he's putting his own twist on a classic gimmick, that's very easy to get wrong.

As for Logan, I'm not really a fan, and the hyperbole around his ability makes me roll my eyes, but I can see why they'd give him the win (and why I think he'll eventually get a belt) - the eyeballs he'd bring to the product and potential new fans makes it almost a no brainer for WWE, especially given how serious he seems to be about it.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

To be fair Collision doesn't need to attract a casual fan - it first needs to make sure that everyone that watches Dynamite, watches Collision (which is something Rampage obviously hasn't achieved). Big names putting on good matches should do that for a first entry - I'm sure they'll start to bleed the storylines from Dynamite into Collision in time.

I'm not asking them to go full Russo but some storylines and intrigue would only add to the appeal with the core audience. I don't think a wrestling company has to totally compromise themselves to attract the masses. Collision looked less indie because everyone on it looked like wrestlers. A casual flicking through the channels would've seen Wardlow vs. Luchasaurus and been impressed. Same as Andrade vs. Buddy - two ripped, athletic guys with interesting looks. The aesthetic was good in terms of production. But there was just not much going on in terms of storylines or characterisation. If the 'big matches' don't really mean much story wise, what incentive is there to turn in next week? The first of any shows needs to have good hooks to bring people back to watch. Nothing really was set up, besides two additions to a future tournament and a feud starting between Andrade and the HoB. Having good matches is great and all but good matches are a dime a dozen. The AEW hardcore fan has access to endless good matches these days with so much content from worldwide and the independents readily available.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I'm not asking them to go full Russo but some storylines and intrigue would only add to the appeal with the core audience. I don't think a wrestling company has to totally compromise themselves to attract the masses. Collision looked less indie because everyone on it looked like wrestlers. A casual flicking through the channels would've seen Wardlow vs. Luchasaurus and been impressed. Same as Andrade vs. Buddy - two ripped, athletic guys with interesting looks. The aesthetic was good in terms of production. But there was just not much going on in terms of storylines or characterisation. If the 'big matches' don't really mean much story wise, what incentive is there to turn in next week? The first of any shows needs to have good hooks to bring people back to watch. Nothing really was set up, besides two additions to a future tournament and a feud starting between Andrade and the HoB. Having good matches is great and all but good matches are a dime a dozen. The AEW hardcore fan has access to endless good matches these days with so much content from worldwide and the independents readily available.

Not sure that's very fair. There were few storylines on Collision because the majority of the matches on the card were about people returning who hadn't been there for a while (Punk, Andrade, Miro). It might well be the kick off to a couple of storylines though with FTR v BCG, Punk v Joe and House of Black v Los Ignorables.

Contrast that with Dynamite which was almost entirely centred around the MJF v Adam Cole and BCC v Elite storylines. The ending to that was crazy btw with Kingston coming back and reigniting his feud with Claudio but having that weird dynamic because of his friendship with Mox, Takeshita attacking the Elite before Kenny made the save and then finally Ospreay showing up and destroying Kenny in advance of their FD rematch. Probably the best end to a Dynamite yet.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

There is a bit of the Rock/Stone Cold gimmick but he's definitely better than a lot on the mic.

I hope Logan doesn't win it. It would make a mockery of the qualifying tournament they had and he just waltzes in. I imagine he's there for the high flying stuff in the match.

Disagree - I think it would just be more good heel schtick for him (plus it is totally believable that Logan Paul would have the pull of the "higher-ups" to not have to qualify for the match).

The MITB briefcase would be a great gimmick for him - and he's got the star power to pull it off.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Not sure that's very fair. There were few storylines on Collision because the majority of the matches on the card were about people returning who hadn't been there for a while (Punk, Andrade, Miro). It might well be the kick off to a couple of storylines though with FTR v BCG, Punk v Joe and House of Black v Los Ignorables.

Contrast that with Dynamite which was almost entirely centred around the MJF v Adam Cole and BCC v Elite storylines. The ending to that was crazy btw with Kingston coming back and reigniting his feud with Claudio but having that weird dynamic because of his friendship with Mox, Takeshita attacking the Elite before Kenny made the save and then finally Ospreay showing up and destroying Kenny in advance of their FD rematch. Probably the best end to a Dynamite yet.

I’m not talking about Dynamite. I’m talking about Collision. It was the first show and needed to hit hard. From an in ring point of view, it was great. No arguments there. From a storyline perspective, it was dull and uninviting. In a new time slot and with Punk’s return, maybe new or returning eyes would get on the product. If so, I don’t think they did a good job of hooking people back next week.

I know it’s boomer to harken back to the Attitude Era but Raw and Nitro were fast paced and lively in that period. There was always intrigue. We were given a reason to care about people apart from just being good wrestlers.

Miro crushed Tony Nese. That was it. No explanation of where he’d been. No challenging anyone or stating his intentions. Ricky Starks and Hobbs just said they were in the Owen Hart tournament. That was it. Even the Punk stuff was tepid. The Bucks line was clever but not especially ground breaking. There was some allusion to coming back for MJF’s title but it was weak as Punk lost the belt clean and the red bag thing just seems a bit odd.

I mean, it was fine… but where’s the creativity and drama and intrigue and suspense? There’s such awesome, well written TV shows out there that are competing for people’s time over Collision. Collision offered just… good wrestling. Cool but is that really going to grow the audience? Rampage started off with high profile ‘good matches’ too but never really took off because it didn’t tell good enough stories.

Just to add context, I say this as someone who loves wrestling and keeps waiting for it to be consistently good again. I’m going to All In. I think the whole industry (bar Bloodline, LA Knight, most of what MJF did pre-title) is in a state of creative inertia because the hardcore fans have decided that all that matters is good wrestling and ‘sensible booking’.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

I’m not talking about Dynamite. I’m talking about Collision. It was the first show and needed to hit hard. From an in ring point of view, it was great. No arguments there. From a storyline perspective, it was dull and uninviting. In a new time slot and with Punk’s return, maybe new or returning eyes would get on the product. If so, I don’t think they did a good job of hooking people back next week.

I know it’s boomer to harken back to the Attitude Era but Raw and Nitro were fast paced and lively in that period. There was always intrigue. We were given a reason to care about people apart from just being good wrestlers.

Miro crushed Tony Nese. That was it. No explanation of where he’d been. No challenging anyone or stating his intentions. Ricky Starks and Hobbs just said they were in the Owen Hart tournament. That was it. Even the Punk stuff was tepid. The Bucks line was clever but not especially ground breaking. There was some allusion to coming back for MJF’s title but it was weak as Punk lost the belt clean and the red bag thing just seems a bit odd.

I mean, it was fine… but where’s the creativity and drama and intrigue and suspense? There’s such awesome, well written TV shows out there that are competing for people’s time over Collision. Collision offered just… good wrestling. Cool but is that really going to grow the audience? Rampage started off with high profile ‘good matches’ too but never really took off because it didn’t tell good enough stories.

Just to add context, I say this as someone who loves wrestling and keeps waiting for it to be consistently good again. I’m going to All In. I think the whole industry (bar Bloodline, LA Knight, most of what MJF did pre-title) is in a state of creative inertia because the hardcore fans have decided that all that matters is good wrestling and ‘sensible booking’.

So was I. My point is you're judging it after one show which was built around returning wrestlers ( one in particular if we're being honest).

Now they've got that out the way maybe see where it goes before calling it out for a lack of storylines.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

So was I. My point is you're judging it after one show which was built around returning wrestlers ( one in particular if we're being honest).

Now they've got that out the way maybe see where it goes before calling it out for a lack of storylines.

Sorry but I think you’re missing my fundamental point. You’re urging me to give it time. Casual fans won’t give it time. I’d consider myself a ‘hardcore casual fan’ and I’m not inclined to check it out next week. You only have one chance to make a first impression. Collision needed to deliver as it’s in a notoriously difficult time slot. It had good matches but wasn’t a good show.

Tbf what didn’t help it was all the rumours that it was essentially a new brand. Maybe I expected a product a little more to my tastes and a little less indie/ROH/work rate darlings. I like most of the guys on it, while the likes of Jack Perry, Guevara, Adam Page and Yuta do absolutely nothing for me. My expectations were all wrong, in truth.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Sorry but I think you’re missing my fundamental point. You’re urging me to give it time. Casual fans won’t give it time. I’d consider myself a ‘hardcore casual fan’ and I’m not inclined to check it out next week. You only have one chance to make a first impression. Collision needed to deliver as it’s in a notoriously difficult time slot. It had good matches but wasn’t a good show.

Tbf what didn’t help it was all the rumours that it was essentially a new brand. Maybe I expected a product a little more to my tastes and a little less indie/ROH/work rate darlings. I like most of the guys on it, while the likes of Jack Perry, Guevara, Adam Page and Yuta do absolutely nothing for me. My expectations were all wrong, in truth.

Surely by the very definition, 'casual fans' won't give anything time. They'll just tune in casually. Which is fine.

Sounds to me like you don't particularly enjoy much about modern pro wrestling which is also fine.

 

[Sylar]

It was weak as Punk lost the belt clean and the red bag thing just seems a bit odd.

He gave it up (stripped) and didn't lose it. So wasn't odd at all

 

[Shane88]

It doesn't matter that Knight is doing a Rock/Stone Cold tribute act because he does it so well. Guy is a real throwback, super entertaining.

He even managed to come out of a Bray Wyatt feud without being ruined. Sign of a true star.

 

[noodlehair]

Logan Paul is so much better as a heel. To be fair probably works because the fans want to boo him anyway so he just needs to act like himself, but he's got the presence and charisma to pull it off

 

[AshRK]

It doesn't matter that Knight is doing a Rock/Stone Cold tribute act because he does it so well. Guy is a real throwback, super entertaining.

He even managed to come out of a Bray Wyatt feud without being ruined. Sign of a true star.

I would be disappointed if wwe doesn't use him to his potential. There is a possible star in him. You can even have him go into a lengthy feud with Logan paul.

 

[Shane88]

Saw this the other day. Even when he botches a promo it's more entertaining than most others.

 

[cyberman]

So was I. My point is you're judging it after one show which was built around returning wrestlers ( one in particular if we're being honest).

Now they've got that out the way maybe see where it goes before calling it out for a lack of storylines.

We were told to wait and see about Rampage as well.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

We were told to wait and see about Rampage as well.

Doesn't matter. You'll still watch it and moan about everything regardless.

 

[mazhar13]

Never seen him before but my first impression is he's basically doing the Rock's gimmick is he not?

There definitely seems to be a generous borrowing of Rock's mannerisms and delivery, but it was an all time great gimmick so at least he has good taste.

Bit of a mixture of Stone Cold/Rock on the mic, still good though. He was pretty decent in NXT.

Oh yeah I'm not saying it's a bad thing, he's putting his own twist on a classic gimmick, that's very easy to get wrong.

He's always had that kind of delivery dating back to this Impact days (51 seconds onwards):


Shane88 also posted his promo from NWA Powerrr, which was great (the full promo's even better). I first saw him in that show's first episode and instantly got The Rock/Stone Cold vibes from him. He's a terrific talker who can back it up in the ring. Given his age (he's 40 now), I do hope that he gets a big push soon so that WWE can capitalise on his charisma.

 

[Shane88]

He's always had that kind of delivery dating back to this Impact days (51 seconds onwards):


Shane88 also posted his promo from NWA Powerrr, which was great (the full promo's even better). I first saw him in that show's first episode and instantly got The Rock/Stone Cold vibes from him. He's a terrific talker who can back it up in the ring. Given his age (he's 40 now), I do hope that he gets a big push soon so that WWE can capitalise on his charisma.

40 shouldn't be that big of a deal. Out of curiosity I googled some big names and a lot of them these days are currently approaching 40 or even over it.

Roman (38) Finn (41) AJ (46) Owens (39) Sami (38) Miz (42) Lashley (46) Sheamus (45) Drew (38) Bryan (42) Jericho (52) Punk (44, although showing it with injuries) Omega (39) One "Young" Buck is (38) Orange Cassidy (39) Samoa Joe (44). Rollins, Cody and Moxley are all 37.

35 to 45 seems to be the prime years in wrestling.

 

[mazhar13]

40 shouldn't be that big of a deal. Out of curiosity I googled some big names and a lot of them these days are currently approaching 40 or even over it.

Roman (38) Finn (41) AJ (46) Owens (39) Sami (38) Miz (42) Lashley (46) Sheamus (45) Drew (38) Bryan (42) Jericho (52) Punk (44, although showing it with injuries) Omega (39) One "Young" Buck is (38) Orange Cassidy (39) Samoa Joe (44). Rollins, Cody and Moxley are all 37.

35 to 45 seems to be the prime years in wrestling.

Yeah, that's fair. LA Knight does have more to his overall persona outside of good wrestling, so he'd be fine even if his athleticism starts to decline.

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

He gave it up (stripped) and didn't lose it. So wasn't odd at all

My mistake. I’d thought Moxley beat him (as it went from Mox to MJF) but forgot that Punk won the PPV match.

Surely by the very definition, 'casual fans' won't give anything time. They'll just tune in casually. Which is fine.

Sounds to me like you don't particularly enjoy much about modern pro wrestling which is also fine.

See, this attitude is held by a few people in the business and I couldn’t disagree more. AEW/WWE should constantly be trying to attract new fans and re-engage lapsed fans. I agree with the principle of pleasing the core audience but AEW take it too far. Look at all this Forbidden Door stuff. They’ve done a terrible job of introducing the NJPW guys - ‘oh everyone knows Tanahashi so everyone will accept it as a dream match’ is the mindset. Same with debuting talent from the indies. It’s lazy. It’s not hard to do some vignettes or segments that give us more meat on the bones of why we should care for these people.

I like bits of modern pro wrestling but do find myself feeling mostly dissatisfied. I really caught the bug in the late 90s/early 2000s and found the product (Raw and Nitro) exciting, intriguing, emotionally engaging. Glimpses of that keep me going but I feel what the hardcore fans purport to want dominates. I think some of that is community dogma too and there’s a snobbery (‘elitism’) against the type of wrestling I enjoy.

The equivalent would be of all the major Hollywood studios stopped making action films and rom coms etc and flooded the market with 3 and a half hour long arthouse films.

That’s just how I feel. Not saying it’s right or other tastes aren’t valid. Ultimately, like with United, I'm frustrated with modern pro wrestling because I love it and I've seen it when it's great.

 

[Welsh Wonder]

My mistake. I’d thought Moxley beat him (as it went from Mox to MJF) but forgot that Punk won the PPV match.



See, this attitude is held by a few people in the business and I couldn’t disagree more. AEW/WWE should constantly be trying to attract new fans and re-engage lapsed fans. I agree with the principle of pleasing the core audience but AEW take it too far. Look at all this Forbidden Door stuff. They’ve done a terrible job of introducing the NJPW guys - ‘oh everyone knows Tanahashi so everyone will accept it as a dream match’ is the mindset. Same with debuting talent from the indies. It’s lazy. It’s not hard to do some vignettes or segments that give us more meat on the bones of why we should care for these people.

I like bits of modern pro wrestling but do find myself feeling mostly dissatisfied. I really caught the bug in the late 90s/early 2000s and found the product (Raw and Nitro) exciting, intriguing, emotionally engaging. Glimpses of that keep me going but I feel what the hardcore fans purport to want dominates. I think some of that is community dogma too and there’s a snobbery (‘elitism’) against the type of wrestling I enjoy.

The equivalent would be of all the major Hollywood studios stopped making action films and rom coms etc and flooded the market with 3 and a half hour long arthouse films.

That’s just how I feel. Not saying it’s right or other tastes aren’t valid. Ultimately, like with United, I'm frustrated with modern pro wrestling because I love it and I've seen it when it's great.

It's also worth considering that at this point you may be tired of it. For me wrestling is the only long term interest that I tend to phase in and out of and I think that's in part due to overexposure to the way it's discussed online compared to how much of the actual content I consume. You can watch a 5 minute segment but then be exposed to many dozens of polarising views from people unwilling to budge from their standpoint and it just poisons the whole thing. In part that's my fault for looking at these topics but still, it can be a bit much. It's why I never enter the United forum on here

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

It's also worth considering that at this point you may be tired of it. For me wrestling is the only long term interest that I tend to phase in and out of and I think that's in part due to overexposure to the way it's discussed online compared to how much of the actual content I consume. You can watch a 5 minute segment but then be exposed to many dozens of polarising views from people unwilling to budge from their standpoint and it just poisons the whole thing. In part that's my fault for looking at these topics but still, it can be a bit much. It's why I never enter the United forum on here

That's a really good point. I'm quite embroiled in the IWC through Reddit and wrestling news sites and it is draining. I'm also aware that I have my rose tinted glasses on for the late 90s/early 2000s era of wrestling. There was a lot of crap back then and a lot of it has aged terribly. However, my general point still stands. I find that content like LA Knight's stuff and the Bloodline (though sometimes it has dragged) remind me of what I love about wrestling and what I feel I see so little these days as compared to 'the good old days'.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

 

[Sylar]

I still maintain in aew juice has been more entertaining than white.

 

[cyberman]

Juice is outshining Jay so far and it’s a sight to behold

 

[CassiusClaymore]

They play off each other perfectly. He's the comic foil to Jay's straight man.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

So hyped for this at the weekend. Booked Monday off to recover from a live watch.

 

[RacingClub]

AEW/WWE should constantly be trying to attract new fans and re-engage lapsed fans.

I have to say that I agree with you here.

I'm a lapsed fan who actively sought and watched his first wrestling show (excluding Manias and Royal Rumbles) in 20 years on Sunday morning due to the fact I've been reading about the fall out with CM Punk/Elite on sites like reddit and here.

I watched the first couple of segments and enjoyed ( but didn't love) the Punk promo, thought Wardlow and Luchasauras (Good look, terrible name IMO sounds like a brodus clay character) was decent and harkened back to WWF/WCW big man style wrestling with some extra flair, Andrade match was good too (even if I don't really understand the scary guys) while I found the Miro match just "Meh" and then I just kind of drifted off and haven't been back since.

As you mentioned before a little more storytelling would have helped me along my journey to becoming a regular viewer but i think your description of it as "dull and uninviting" is pretty much on the money.

If it wasn't for all the drama I wouldn't have checked it out (I don't watch Dynamite or Rampage) and I think they missed an opportunity to hook some people like me while they had those eyes on the product.

 

[Sylar]

I have to say that I agree with you here.

I'm a lapsed fan who actively sought and watched his first wrestling show (excluding Manias and Royal Rumbles) in 20 years on Sunday morning due to the fact I've been reading about the fall out with CM Punk/Elite on sites like reddit and here.

I watched the first couple of segments and enjoyed ( but didn't love) the Punk promo, thought Wardlow and Luchasauras (Good look, terrible name IMO sounds like a brodus clay character) was decent and harkened back to WWF/WCW big man style wrestling with some extra flair, Andrade match was good too (even if I don't really understand the scary guys) while I found the Miro match just "Meh" and then I just kind of drifted off and haven't been back since.

As you mentioned before a little more storytelling would have helped me along my journey to becoming a regular viewer but i think your description of it as "dull and uninviting" is pretty much on the money.

If it wasn't for all the drama I wouldn't have checked it out (I don't watch Dynamite or Rampage) and I think they missed an opportunity to hook some people like me while they had those eyes on the product.

Just curious what you mean by this? Or an example of this you were after

 

[RacingClub]

Just curious what you mean by this? Or an example of this you were after

Well I wasn't really after anything to be honest, I just tuned in because I was interested in seeing what this new show looked like due to all the drama and since it was a brand new show i think they missed an opportunity to spoon feed a brand new viewer (or a 30s/40s lapsed fan who is dipping his toe in AEW water on the back of an enormous legitimate backstage drama).

I think @SparkedIntoLife summed it up pretty well.

Miro crushed Tony Nese. That was it. No explanation of where he’d been. No challenging anyone or stating his intentions. Ricky Starks and Hobbs just said they were in the Owen Hart tournament. That was it. Even the Punk stuff was tepid. The Bucks line was clever but not especially ground breaking.

Edited to add ;

Even something like Samoa Joe interrupting Punks promo to set up the main event would have helped I guess?

 

[Ekeke]

Looking forward to Forbidden Door because theres plenty of matches focusing on solid match quality. However, since the success of the Wembley sales a bit ago... Tony Khan has been losing me with his decision making. Havent been a fan in recent months at all of those.

 

[Sylar]

Well I wasn't really after anything to be honest, I just tuned in because I was interested in seeing what this new show looked like due to all the drama and since it was a brand new show i think they missed an opportunity to spoon feed a brand new viewer (or a 30s/40s lapsed fan who is dipping his toe in AEW water on the back of an enormous legitimate backstage drama).

I think @SparkedIntoLife summed it up pretty well.



Edited to add ;

Even something like Samoa Joe interrupting Punks promo to set up the main event would have helped I guess?

Nah this is fair. I've been in the bubble of watching so I mostly know what is happening and why. But even as a watcher, I don't know why that three on three happened except Tony khan said it would on a dynamite.
I don't know why buddy Matthews and andrade fought.
They didn't say where andrade and Miro have been all this time.


On a side note, Tony khan and aew have this issue of following up on momentum.
Starks, wardlow, Hobbs, even swerve. It's a shame

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Nah this is fair. I've been in the bubble of watching so I mostly know what is happening and why. But even as a watcher, I don't know why that three on three happened except Tony khan said it would on a dynamite.
I don't know why buddy Matthews and andrade fought.
They didn't say where andrade and Miro have been all this time.


On a side note, Tony khan and aew have this issue of following up on momentum.
Starks, wardlow, Hobbs, even swerve. It's a shame

This is very true. Hook's another one that felt like he was going to be a sensation. He felt fresh and different, albeit super raw. I think the Danhausen stuff killed him and now he's just a generic guy. He's lost the edge he had.

I really enjoy all 4 you mentioned, though all are perhaps missing the final puzzle piece to be a really top guy. The booking has been disappointing though. I think the roster is just so vast and Tony gets distracted if things aren't being pushed in front of his face by Meltzer/the IWC.

There's actually a lot I think AEW does get right but they don't always maximise the presentation of their talent. Take Jay White for instance. He was brought in doing a random beat down and treated like an also ran. If he'd have signed for WWE, I'd expect them to do some crazy entrance or superb vignettes or big hype. Same with Okada in his brief appearances so far. He doesn't feel like a big guy. I'm not into NJPW at all but even I know that the guy is an absolute superstar. He's crazily charismatic and his whole shtick is based on flashiness and colours. He came to AEW looking like a bloke they'd found off the street. I don't get it at all.

I have to say that I agree with you here.

I'm a lapsed fan who actively sought and watched his first wrestling show (excluding Manias and Royal Rumbles) in 20 years on Sunday morning due to the fact I've been reading about the fall out with CM Punk/Elite on sites like reddit and here.

I watched the first couple of segments and enjoyed ( but didn't love) the Punk promo, thought Wardlow and Luchasauras (Good look, terrible name IMO sounds like a brodus clay character) was decent and harkened back to WWF/WCW big man style wrestling with some extra flair, Andrade match was good too (even if I don't really understand the scary guys) while I found the Miro match just "Meh" and then I just kind of drifted off and haven't been back since.

As you mentioned before a little more storytelling would have helped me along my journey to becoming a regular viewer but i think your description of it as "dull and uninviting" is pretty much on the money.

If it wasn't for all the drama I wouldn't have checked it out (I don't watch Dynamite or Rampage) and I think they missed an opportunity to hook some people like me while they had those eyes on the product.

See, this is funny to me. Rightfully, you're brought back by the controversy around Punk and the Elite. Although I have my doubts, I'm pretty sure that's 100% a shoot and that there's still real bad feelings on both sides. I get that Tony Khan doesn't want to inflame the situation too much but damn, there's one hell of an elephant in the room. Could they not all sit round a table and make money off this? It feels like they've brought back Punk in the most boring way possible when he should be absolutely on fire. Now he's in the Owen Hart tournament and apparently is feuding with Samoa Joe for no real stated reason at all. I don't get how they can make this guy feel inert already when he had so much attention and controversy surrounding him, such that it brought someone like yourself back to give it a chance.

I have seen AEW do some fantastic storytelling at times so that's what makes this even more disappointing. I remember episodes of Raw/SD/Nitro in late 90s/early 2000s - there'd be plots weaved throughout the show, ok to good matches, vignettes with substance beyond 'I'm entering the tournament', people plotting and forming alliances, mystery attackers, romance angles, wrestlers throwing others in rivers, people fighting in a supermarket, swerves, segments off-site like in a wrestler's house or at a beach party or something, etc. Some of it was absolute garbage, granted, but there was always a lot of effort put into telling stories. Everyone had motivations and characters beyond 'good wrestler'. There was a feeling of pace and unpredictability. Some TV matches were very good (especially early 2000s WWE with the SmackDown Six, for instance) but mostly they didn't try to kill themselves with insane stunts and left the more intense spots for PPV.

To my taste, a wrestling TV show should be 60-40 ratio of wrestling to segments and the PPV should be 85-15. Build to big matches, give talent a rest, make everyone concentrate on getting their characters and stories over.

 

[noodlehair]

The lack of story telling is what's put me off watching tbh. I think the big argument against the Russo style TV presentation is that all the drama and segments and plot twists left very little time for actual wrestling....and that would be a bigger issue now because your average wrestling fan and their expectations aren't the same as in 1998 where you could get away with having a whole Raw episode with barely a match.

The thing is though, at the time this was all being crammed into one 2 hour episode of Raw a week. WWE has 5 hours of TV time a week now. They could easily fit in the same kind of story telling and drama, without compromising on the wrestling time or quality. They literally waste about a 3rd of their TV time showing the same thing over and over again or advertising garbage, and the matches outside of the ppvs aren't really good enough to justify the length they drag them out for either, with the odd exception. You don't have to dial the nonsense/drama up to a 10 every week but at least try to get it above a 0.2

AEW has 3 shows now. Again, they have more than enough time for story telling, yet they go the opposite way. The more time they get the less story and character development there seems to be. I do enjoy the matches and fun presentation a lot more than WWE but it isn't compelling viewing because there's no suspense over what will happen next, or real reason to invest. Its not like the story telling isn't there but again its felt more and more like a token effort. Create some drama amd suspense around some of the crazy wrestling and it would make the show and probably the matches a whole lot better

 

[SparkedIntoLife]

Couldn’t agree more @noodlehair.

It’s abundantly clear that Tony Khan absolutely loves AEW but he has his fingers in way too many pies and his booking reflects this. The creative feels like it’s written by one person with a narrow scope of vision, occasionally assisted by the input of the wrestlers themselves.

There’s just so much repetition. Stable gangs up to beat someone down, the victim’s allies save them. Newcomer/NJPW guy debuts by running out and attacking their Forbidden Door opponent (selected because Tony thinks it’s a dream match). There’s been lots of ‘stacked attacks’ recently too. The recent Kingston return leading into Ospreay attacking Omega was widely praised, both here and elsewhere on the internet. But for me, if Russo had booked it, they’d decry it as overbooked trash.

I know I’m complaining a lot but I do enjoy parts of AEW and am going to All In. I’m genuinely glad it exists as a genuine WWE alternative. I just think it could be a lot better and these persistent issues frustrate me.

 

[Cooksen]

Promo's and story is what makes the matches mean more, Roman vs Sami was a killer match because there was emotional stakes to it, I knew that Roman would win but got worked by the story, Same with what Cody is doing.

Thats what i feel

 

[Zen]

Promo's and story is what makes the matches mean more, Roman vs Sami was a killer match because there was emotional stakes to it, I knew that Roman would win but got worked by the story, Same with what Cody is doing.

Thats what i feel

100% agree. This Forbidden Door event is being heavily sold with a double main event, one of which is a longstanding feud and build.... because Omega has genuine interest in building a long-term feud with Ospreay and helping to build him up.

But Okada/Bryan is a colossal missed opportunity build wise. A utter legendary match up... just casually put together. I get they are handcuffed a bit, but surely you could of built this a bit longer... and we're two months away from All In, with no builds, no wonder it's stagnated and half the stadium has stayed available since about 2 hours after release... I doubt Omega was do Ospreay III that quick to. Bryan-Ospreay? With no build other than they could potentially be the two winners from Forbidden Door...

Should be noted I have a mate going to Toronto tomorrow, and we looked at tickets for Forbidden Door... also, not sold out.

 

[Ekeke]

If theres 2 wrestlers I'd back to tell a good story in the ring despite a lack of buildup beforehand its Okada and Danielson. Omega would be the other one. NJPW often have to do this as the promos and storylines arent as emphasised as you're used to in the west. So they have to do the whole thing with the match. And many, like Okada, are great at it. So I understand people who dont really know Okada and NJPW not being as hyped for the match because of a lack of buildup, but in terms of what happens in the ring it'll be one of the top matches of the year no doubt. These guys are masters of this.

 

[Zen]

Absolutely disagree. Even the best of Okada has storyline and build to it, just because it's not the same style storytelling of western wrestling at times doesn't change that. Bryan-Okada is legit being sold as a generic as you like "best vs best" thing, okay Bryan's a heel which allow for some in-match story, and the match itself will very likely deliver, but it's impossible to be a genuine all-timer in my opinion. A rematch however.... could be.... at the expense of this event not being anywhere near as big as it should be though. It was announced what? 2 weeks ago... with one ring sharing moment. Such a missed opportunity.... Jericho building the Omega feud all those years back was simple shit for instance.

I'm not expecting Angle-HBK build levels... but that's the kind of thing you are looking at, dream match. Seperate brands albeit under the same banner, but delivered with a brilliant build and then went further.... mind you, it's my all-time favourite match.

 

[Shane88]

Okada vs Bryan tomorrow night is like United vs Real Madrid...in July, in an Asian pre-season friendly tournament semi-final. Pointless, but fans will eat it up.

Couldn't be arsed in wrestling matches with no feuds/stories behind it. It's not a real sport, an exhibition means feck all. It's pro wrestling, you need some drama and spice carrying the moves.

 

[CassiusClaymore]

Andrade has come back strong. Really enjoying this feud with House of Black.