Television The Wire

Ok, so after finishing season 5, I've decided I agree with Plech. 3 is the best, 4 is slightly mis-paced regarding Michael and suffers a bit by replacing Barksdale & Bell with the bland & one-dimensional Marlo & anyone who doesn't like 2 has completely missed the entire point of the show and should be pointed at and ridiculed.

Everything else about it is utterly brilliant, of course.
 
I can understand it. Especially for people who'd become invested in a Cops vs Urban Druglords show. And obviously balding port authority union workers aren't anywhere near as cool or glamorous as....well, anything. But it's a really well worked and paced series and Frank is one of the best performances and most tragic stories of the whole show.

I think 2 and 4 are the seasons that most encapsulate the series, it's themes and intentions. They also happen to be the ones that take the shrapest diversions from what had come before.
 
Mockney said:
I can understand it. Especially for people who'd become invested in a Cops vs Urban Druglords show. And obviously balding port authority union workers aren't anywhere near as cool or glamorous as....well, anything. But it's a really well worked and paced series and Frank is one of the best performances and most tragic stories of the whole show.

I think 2 and 4 are the seasons that most encapsulate the series, it's themes and intentions. They also happen to be the ones that take the shrapest diversions from what had come before.
Click to expand...

True that.
 
Season 2 was fantastic, just not quite as brilliant as 3 or 4.

Like you say, Frank is a great character- showing how economic deprivation is the primary cause of criminality and how the US government is more focused on busting Unions to help rich people than addressing it's problems.

Loved the Greek, "I'm not even Greek" :lol: Brilliant.

I think Marlo wasn't that great as AvonMkII (apart from the 'MY NAME IS MY NAME' scene), but the character was necessary for the message of the show.

That strong and ruthless enforcement of drug prohibition leads to an arms race and promotes more extreme criminal activity.

Loved the way it ended for him, the only thing Marlo cared about was his reputation on the streets and noone knew who he was after he was deposed- as somebody pointed out, he wanted to be an Avon- but got forced into becoming what Stringer Bell wanted to be, and couldn't handle it.
 
Yeah I liked his ending (the whole full circle ending montage was brilliant, period) but I just didn't think he was a very good or believable character, from the fact he had little charisma or ever did anything, to the fact he looked like a skinny backing dancer doing his best tough face.

At least when String was a similarly brooding unknown in the first few Eps you bought that the young'uns would be scared of this big hulking intimidating guy that would plausibly be the head (or co-head) of their operation. And by the end of their arch, you knew exactly what B&B were all about, who did what and why and how they'd likely acquired their power. With Marlo it was all a bit flat and forced; - "This guy is just really bad and dangerous and cool and everyone respects him and he's got the biggest crew now, yeah? Good. No we don't need to know why. Oh, and he keeps pigeons, yeah, that'll do for a personality trait. Now accept it and GO!"

When Marlo & Avon had that jail scene in S5 all it did was make me wish Avon was still in it. The gulf in character was massive.

I'm nit picking though.
 
My order is 4>2>1>3>5. I loved 2, could never see me watching anything better, then season came along which is insanely good. Easily the best ever TV series for me.
 
Just finished season 4 again last night, riveting viewing. I still think it's the best of the bunch, absolute perfection from start to finish. I found myself laying idle in bed last night for ages thinking about the characters and what became of them.
The complete transformations of all the Lafayette boys was probably the most tragic story in all of The Wire in that every one of them bar Namond ends the season on the road to ruin, which is a complete role-reversal from the beginning, when Namond was the only boy that was seemingly "lost". Randy's story, in particular, is incredibly sad.

It's an amazing television show and a marvellous achievement. I am going to start Season 5 tonight, and although is universally held as the weakest of the five, even that has gained credit with those in the profession saying it's the most realistic portrayal of the media industry ever recorded.

To weigh-in on the discussion regarding season 2 already, I think it's just below season 4 in quality, equal with series 1 and 3 and above series 5. As others have alluded to, series 2 may not garner as much praise from viewers due to the lack of a hard-nosed gangster that the other seasons have. The story of the Subotka family is one of the highlights of the show, absolutely transfixing television.

I'd be of a very similar opinion to shaggy on this topic:

shaggy said:
My order is 4>2>1>3>5. I loved 2, could never see me watching anything better, then season came along which is insanely good. Easily the best ever TV series for me.
Click to expand...

4 > 2 = 1 = 3 > 5 for me.
 
Mockney said:
Yeah I liked his ending (the whole full circle ending montage was brilliant, period) but I just didn't think he was a very good or believable character, from the fact he had little charisma or ever did anything, to the fact he looked like a skinny backing dancer doing his best tough face.

At least when String was a similarly brooding unknown in the first few Eps you bought that the young'uns would be scared of this big hulking intimidating guy that would plausibly be the head (or co-head) of their operation. And by the end of their arch, you knew exactly what B&B were all about, who did what and why and how they'd likely acquired their power. With Marlo it was all a bit flat and forced; - "This guy is just really bad and dangerous and cool and everyone respects him and he's got the biggest crew now, yeah? Good. No we don't need to know why. Oh, and he keeps pigeons, yeah, that'll do for a personality trait. Now accept it and GO!"

When Marlo & Avon had that jail scene in S5 all it did was make me wish Avon was still in it. The gulf in character was massive.

I'm nit picking though.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I see where you're coming from, but Marlo was just nihilistic to me. There was no emotion just coz he simply didn't give a feck. You were killed even if you were the merest threat to him. He wiped out whole crews, boarded them up, got found out, got spied on, yet didn't bat an eyelid. He was having people killed for maybe telling someone he was a cocksucker (as Snoop said, even if people just said he said it, "he gots to go"). It wasn't about money for him. There were no vices that we saw. He wasn't austentatious. If he took your jewellry, it wasn't coz it was expensive, it was coz it was yours. He took the sweets from that store and humiliated the security guard, just because. For me, the Barksdale crew was like the drug kingpins of the 70s and 80s- the Nicky Barneses and Pablo Escobars- whereas Marlo was the new breed who learned from their mistakes, but nobody ever knew who he was.

Not trying to start an argument, I just think he was a fantastic character. His whole crew were minimalist in their speech, but very demonstrative in their actions.
 
I'm leaning more towards Badunk's POV

I feel Marlo is less deep as a character than Stringer or Avon but that almost emphasizes how their 'game' has changed (the abdication of the traditional rules of the game which Stringer/Avon stood for in place of ruthless, every-man-for-himself warfare that Marlo specialized in). Marlo's rep is built solely on the fact that he has a couple of loyal soldiers who will dispatch someone who isn't even in the game for a minor, perceived slight. The way the Co-Op, built up by the civilized Stringer and Prop Joe, is dismantled unceremoniously by Marlo is a good example of this theme.
 
-SPOILER-

I will agree with Mockney though, that it was impossible to watch Stringer get taken out of the game and get replaced by Marlo without the immediate impression being that there was a conspicuous lack of aura and intrigue in the new guy. That might just be a testament to the strength of Stringer as a character, or it might be exactly what the creators of the show wanted the viewer to feel, who knows.
 
verminater said:
I took Marlo to represent the new breed. No end-game. No empathy. No future.
Living for today, and killing without a second thought. Preferred Snoop, when I could "unnastaan huh".
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was one of the interesting things about Marlo, like most of the drug dealers he knows that his time in the game is limited before he's killed. He only cared about was being a legendary gangster with a reputation for being cold so his name would live on after he was killed.

Saw it mentioned before, that one of the Greeks actually says 'it doesn't matter my name is not my name' at the end of season 2, while Marlo was obsessed with his reputation. Showing the Greeks were about the long game, survival and making money- and they get away with it, because they have connections- while the short sighted Marlo gets taken out of the game because he wasn't smart enough. It's always the chumps that get the punishment.

Snoop was a great character, bloody terrifying. She literally didn't give a feck.
 
Snoop was great. I think Bubs was my favourite character over the whole series.

One of the things I love about the show is how so many real people of Baltimore are involved in it. If you're interested take a look on wiki, there are so so many.
 
Took me a while to warm to Marlo, but before long I thought he was a pretty fitting character in context of what the writers were trying to introduce to the series. It was quality how they developed the newer setting in tandem with Cuddy's release from jail whilst focusing on the new found looseness of the rules of 'the game'.

Stringer's character was definitely one of greater complexity and presence, which was appropriate given the difference in the two characters' ambitions. With Marlo, perhaps it was felt that broadening his character too much would go against the cold, single minded ruthlessness that encapsulated his actions as well as the setting in season 4. Maybe the writers also wanted to make sure there was a distinct difference in character from Avon Barksdale, with whom he had at least shared some similarities with in terms of his more street-orientated approach (in contrast to Stringer).
 
Mockney said:
Ok, so after finishing season 5, I've decided I agree with Plech. 3 is the best, 4 is slightly mis-paced regarding Michael and suffers a bit by replacing Barksdale & Bell with the bland & one-dimensional Marlo & anyone who doesn't like 2 has completely missed the entire point of the show and should be pointed at and ridiculed.

Everything else about it is utterly brilliant, of course.
Click to expand...

So true.




Every time I see a random episode of the series now, I notice I tend to have quite a strong dislike towards Stringer Bell, does anyone feel the same?
 
Red Pavan said:
If only they didn't make a mockery of 5th season.
Click to expand...

There was a lot of great stuff in season 5, the newspaper that was more focused on winning a stupid prize than reporting the news. Bubbles sorting his life out and giving a great speech.

It was a shame they did that utterly ridiculous fake serial killer story that went completely against the whole feel of the show.

Also Kima grassing on Lester and McNulty ruined her character for me, I liked her up to that point.

They may have forgiven her, but I never will.
 
I'm contemplating watching it all over again. I've only watched it once and it was at least 3 years ago that I did, maybe 4 years.

I watched the 100 greatest The Wire quotes earlier and it reminded me how good it was.

Shheeeeeeeeeiiit!


 
I didn't like Marlo as a character when I first watched the show, but when I watched it a second time I did warm to him, I think it's because you're generally just supposed to see disdain for him, it's not like Stringer and Avon who both have redeeming qualities amidst their ruthlessness, Marlo is just a killer who does whatever it takes, and doesn't give a feck about anyone else, and I love the ending where he gets exactly what Stringer always wanted but doesn't actually care about it.
 
About season 2: I've said a few times I preferred season 4 to season 2, which doesn't mean I think the second one is crap, far from it, and it's not the plot that bothers me at all (I liked the stories on the dock, and Frank Sobotka is one of the strongest characters of the show), it's just that I think there are some flaws in its structure, like they don't exactly know where they're going with character development (from the major crimes unit I mean), and that's especially clear with McNulty's character who is used a bit weirdly throughout the season. The creators said it was a transitional season, and it has a unique feel to it I think with the docks, but it does also really feel like a transitional season. But, again, by no means is it poor, it's sensational television.

I'm almost towards the end of season 4, and it's just reinforced my belief that it's my favourite. It's absolutely flawless, the writing is incredibly precise and the structure of the episodes is more refined than it was in the previous seasons. The acting by the children is terrific, I'm actually really impressed with the character development of Duquan: he's hardly a central figure in the Lafayette boys, you see a lot of Michael, Namond and Randy, but he's more peripheral, and yet his character is really fleshed out with subtle little pieces, the way he looks at his peers, the way he reacts to Prezbo's kindness, etc. He's really great, I remember his story affecting me the most, and it's the same this time around. For all four of them, there's a sense of inevitability as to what's going to happen, cos of their education, the people that surround them, etc.

And the political side of the show they brought in with season 4 is really interesting, Carcetti is great. Season 5, I don't remember that well, I do remember being really unimpressed with the fake serial killer story, but I also remember liking several points about it: Carcetti's disillusionment as mayor, Bubs's attempts at social reinsertion, the continuation of the stories of the kids and the media part. I thought it was maybe the 'weakest' of the five, yes, but I still found it to be very good TV and wouln't be too harsh on it.
 
I think a lot of peoples problem with season two is that it's a big plot departure from the first season, and the docks have absoltuely no relation to anything we saw in season one, so it's difficult to adjust to because the B&B stuff is so enthralling that you just want to see more of that. Season three and four on the other hand, the politics and schools fit in with the overall plot because there are relationships between all the new characters and existing characters in the show.

I think season two is great TV, and it needs a second viewing to be appreciate because you know what's coming.
 
Marlo wasn't that much more ruthless than Stringer, or street obsessed than Avon, when you think about what he actually did, he just showed less reasoning or conscience. The theme of the show centrally is that nothing really changes, so I saw all the "the game done changed" posturing mostly as the older generation convincing themselves they were better, as older generations always do. When Bodie was complaining that it was out of order for Marlo to kill that fat kid, Poot quite fairly brought up that it was no different than them killing Wallace (which Bodie then wouldn't accept) and Method Man takes a few digs at the older gens needless nostalgia in the last few episodes.

So I'm not sold that he was simply supposed to represent the new wave of ultra-ruthless people, and that if so, a plausible character wasn't needed. Even if he was just supposed to be "evil" it would've been nice to see why, or hint towards some kind of progression from corner runner to head guy.

Because my problem with him was more that I just didn't buy him as a king pin. He looked like a backing dancer trying to do his best tough guy face. And without any indication of why people were scared of/respected him, I found scenes like the Security Guard one (or even Bodie's first scene with him & the golf club) less plausible and thus less powerful. I'd have just slapped him about the head and told him to feck off.

Regarding Season 5, I actually didn't have as much of a problem with the fake serial killer thing as many did, but I did have with the way they brought Lester into it. And the way in which McNulty just became a comedy drunk again in the first couple of episodes. It felt like lazily retreading old ground after his progression in 4.
 
Mockney said:
Because my problem with him was more that I just didn't buy him as a king pin. He looked like a backing dancer trying to do his best tough guy face. And without any indication of why people were scared of/respected him, I found scenes like the Security Guard one (or even Bodie's first scene with him) less plausible. I'd have just slapped him about the head and told him to feck off.
Click to expand...

I actually loved that about Marlo, it added to his mystique for me. Especially when you see the constant violence of Chris and Snoop and see how much even they fear/respect him. It probably would have been entertaining to have him beat some people up etc but it wasn't necessary IMO and the absence of it actually gave him more of an aura.

At the end you see it anyway when he provokes a fight against two guys with a knife and a gun, loved that scene and it just confirms what they built up throughout the show. So yeah, probably would have been entertaining to see more, but don't think it was needed.
 
I just thought he paid them a lot. There was no indication they were scared of him, whereas B&B's crew clearly were a little scared of Stringer, who would shout at them constantly.

I dunno, I think it's too easy to say "yeah but because he had no personality and everyone respected him shows HOW great he was" for me. It's filling in your own reasoning on a blank canvas. Or using other character's strengths to bolster his by association. I'd expect slightly better writing from The Wire than that.

Obviously nit picking tends to be exaggerated in these kind of conversations. The character of Marlo in no way affects how brilliant I thought The Wire was. I just found him a bit meh compared to the greatness of most of the others.
 
Was going to say that... It took me ages to realise Snoop was a girl.
 
It did take a while, but Marlo and Chris do say "girl" to her a few times throughout.

Also pretty sure at one point where Herc arrests her he says something about wanting pussy and she says "yeah me too, me too". :lol:
 
She wears a very girly outfit the first time we see her, when she shoots at Poot on the back of a bike. Before which Marlo says something like "you're up girl"

She would've made a good central character on a Niceklodeon kids show dressed normally.

Warning: This might freak you the feck out.
snoop2.png
 
I'm pretty sure right towards the first times she's introduced, someone says 'girl' to her, but yeah if you miss it and don't pay attention, could be difficult I suppose. Her voice is really weird, if she speaks the same way in real life, I feel sorry for her friends. At leasts I have subtitles to follow along.
 
The scene where she goes to buy the nail gun cracks me up every time I watch it.

Snoop is her real name, and she did time for manslaughter.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.