The Veron Tragedy, Act II

[ukbob]

I have to say that in this matter, I agree fully with Livvie who feels that Veron, being a 28m signing gets a lot of attention, gets into the team whether he plays badly or not, ahead of Scholes and Butt who love the club much more than Veron seems to. <hr></blockquote>

Oh FFS. Does Veron put himself in the team.?? NO the manager does. Why does he put him in the team.?? Why did he buy him and for what purpose.?? Why does he keep him in the team.?? and so on and so on.
Maybe, just maybe Fergie has fecked up, who knows. All I know is that Veron has suffered some very cruel press, his body language tells it all. He has no confidence whatsoever, he has an injury, he is in a strange country to him and his family, he had a huge price tag to live up to. Maybe just maybe he is feeling the pressure. What I am saying here is that WE do not know the full story the same as with the Becks incident. Leave the man alone. Support ALL the players and the team you are SUPPOSED to love or go support some other team.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>

Is the world's greatest striker in the German squad? Is he German.? I've never heard of him. Is he worth buying or is it another example of statistics being useless?

Martin Max being proven as the best striker in the world challenges my favourite statistic - Most people have an above average number of limbs.

One person in 10,000 is missing an arm or leg therefore the average is 3.9999 limbs but most people have four. Statistics might be fact but they are often meaningless.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Mock it all you want but the numbers don't lie. I provided the stats to back up the point that he is one of the most accurate strikers in the world, which he is.

 

[giggzy]

Originally posted by Davo:
<strong>OGS isn't really abused on here tho is he?

Its often a case of you being over protective cos he's your favourite player</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree with that..

kin ell, thats the only thing wrong with Marge

 

[ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Interesting. I've never said that he should be playing in the side if he's been crap though. Or that he should have a whole season (or two) to settle in. I've never said he's the best striker either. Just better than some.

My argument was always that he was more than a sub. Not that he should play whatever. Just that he didn't always get what he deserved.

And I've been proved right.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not really that interesting. What is though is how you contradict yourself, but thats not important.

Whats bugging me is the favouritism amongst not only you, but other reds. You're backing Ole, which is good. But your backing him by comparing him, kind of putting him up against another red. i.e. Ole doesnt get this, he doesnt get that - Veron doesnt do this, or isnt as good at this etc.

Again, its like saying, Scholes/Butt should start because they are homegrown and Veron only plays because he is £28m worth. Poor Veron not being homegrown! Or is that poor Scholes/Butt for not being £28m? Neither, none of it matters.

We support the club and that includes not only the 11 on the pitch, not only our faves but all the players. Just like you support Ole and demanding he is more than a sub, we are demanding that Veron should be given another chance during what is the worst time of his career.

Not because we say he is better than anyone else or because he is £28m, but because he is a Man Utd player and we want to help him shine, not wait for it and then get his name on our shirts. He has not been so bad that he doesnt deserve another chance. Its not like he is just here for the weather and the money (or he'd be at Juve/Real).

That said, if he isnt up to the standard and wastes his chance then he will be out. Enough said really, be a fan and support all the players or shut the hell up.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>

I'm not really that interesting. What is though is how you contradict yourself, but thats not important.

Whats bugging me is the favouritism amongst not only you, but other reds. You're backing Ole, which is good. But your backing him by comparing him, kind of putting him up against another red. i.e. Ole doesnt get this, he doesnt get that - Veron doesnt do this, or isnt as good at this etc.

Again, its like saying, Scholes/Butt should start because they are homegrown and Veron only plays because he is £28m worth. Poor Veron not being homegrown! Or is that poor Scholes/Butt for not being £28m? Neither, none of it matters.

We support the club and that includes not only the 11 on the pitch, not only our faves but all the players. Just like you support Ole and demanding he is more than a sub, we are demanding that Veron should be given another chance during what is the worst time of his career.

Not because we say he is better than anyone else or because he is £28m, but because he is a Man Utd player and we want to help him shine, not wait for it and then get his name on our shirts. He has not been so bad that he doesnt deserve another chance. Its not like he is just here for the weather and the money (or he'd be at Juve/Real).

That said, if he isnt up to the standard and wastes his chance then he will be out. Enough said really, be a fan and support all the players or shut the hell up.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Jesus, you make it sound like old communist Russia.

Listen, if I was at a game, I would support the players whoever they are. Likewise, I wouldn't turn on any player for having a bad game. But I reserve my right to say that after a poor season, one United player should be in the team ahead of another.

And I was using Ole as an example, but maybe not a good one. There are others - like Mark Bosnich - who have been ridiculed on this site, whilst still United players. Dwight Yorke is still a United player. I don't see him getting the support you talk about.

I'm not an extremist. There are plenty of Reds who say Veron should be sold - I've never done that. I don't have a problem with him having another season in which to adapt. But there are aspects of his game which concern me, and in Britain, it isn't enough to be just a pretty passer.

And how do I contradict myself?

 

[ukbob]

Amen.

 

[cD]

Originally posted by ukbob:
<strong>

Oh FFS. Does Veron put himself in the team.?? NO the manager does. Why does he put him in the team.?? Why did he buy him and for what purpose.?? Why does he keep him in the team.?? and so on and so on.
Maybe, just maybe Fergie has fecked up, who knows. All I know is that Veron has suffered some very cruel press, his body language tells it all. He has no confidence whatsoever, he has an injury, he is in a strange country to him and his family, he had a huge price tag to live up to. Maybe just maybe he is feeling the pressure. What I am saying here is that WE do not know the full story the same as with the Becks incident. Leave the man alone. Support ALL the players and the team you are SUPPOSED to love or go support some other team.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I'm not saying that I will not support Veron if he plays. I will always support any player in a Man Utd jersey even Alan Shearer(Lets hope it does not come to that)

 

[dabbon]

We should all support Veron, no matter what. It´s the only way fans can try and influence anything, we don´t help thing by booing or whatever.
By the way, hasn´t anyone noticed the best thing to come out of this transfer? The fact that Nicky is playing so well might be down the fact the he had to try that much harder after Veron came to stand any chance of getting in to the team and England are reaping the benefits right now. (yawn)

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by dabbon:
<strong>We should all support Veron, no matter what. It´s the only way fans can try and influence anything, we don´t help thing by booing or whatever.
By the way, hasn´t anyone noticed the best thing to come out of this transfer? The fact that Nicky is playing so well might be down the fact the he had to try that much harder after Veron came to stand any chance of getting in to the team and England are reaping the benefits right now. (yawn)</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think anyone has suggested booing Veron. I would hate to hear that, and can't imagine it happening anyway.

It might be right what you say about Butt, though Nicky has always had to fight for his place. Last year, and now for England, he's been given the chance to show what he can do. He is probably the kind of player who needs a run to come into form.

 

[R A Softlad]

Apparently the Elephant population is on the increase again... are they fair game to be shot at again?

 

[Wibble]

Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>Martin Max being proven as the best striker in the world challenges my favourite statistic - Most people have an above average number of limbs.

One person in 10,000 is missing an arm or leg therefore the average is 3.9999 limbs but most people have four. Statistics might be fact but they are often meaningless.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In your favorite example the mean number of limb is slightly less than the mode. Why is this in any was suprising, unexpected or meaningless? In fact you have given the meaning - some of us are missing limbs. And why does a german striker being "accurate" challenge your rather dull favorite statistic?

And I don't think Livvie said anything about this Max guy being the best. Just the most accurate. How that is worked out I don't know but it could be number of goals per shot on goal. In which case he might have had 5 shots and scored 5 goals in an entire season. It doesn't make him the best but then nobody claimed he was.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>


And I don't think Livvie said anything about this Max guy being the best. </strong><hr></blockquote>


You're dead right there. In fact, I never mentioned him at all. It was Raoul.

 

[ukbob]

Well statistics don't lie. If you take say 4 players, Veron,Scholes,Butt and Keano. Take their minutes played against how many times they actually touched the ball then apply the Harris formula as to completed passes on the ground, and in the air then you will see that they come out pretty even. However if we then look at shots on goal per actual number of times they had the ball, this being applied as to the minutes they were on the pitch to level out the percentages, calculated on the Rohm scale, which differs from the Harris by applying actual shots on goal as opposed to passing, then it will be seen that Keano is the winner by a fair margin.
Now this of course will change when using the FIFA adopted scale( as is also used by UEFA)which differs slightly from the UK scale. Now when the FIFA scaling is used the results are different with Scholes coming in front of Veron and Keano.! dont ask me why as the calculating method used by Fifa was worked out in the USA. The OPTA statistics are therefore flawed, depending on which system is used. Sep Blatter has tried very hard to have the FIFA system used worldwide but is facing very hard opposition as the South American countries prefer the UK system. It is surprising that FIFA would use an American system which is based on metric scaling when they themselves are still in the Imperial system and are opposed to metrification.! However an answer may well be out at the end of the year when the system being developed by Sweden, which by all accounts has ironed out all the bugs and appears acceptable to all. This will then hopefully lead to accurate across the board statistics which can be followed and used by all.
What the hell is has to with this topic I dont know, but thought I would mention it.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>

In your favorite example the mean number of limb is slightly less than the mode. Why is this in any was suprising, unexpected or meaningless? In fact you have given the meaning - some of us are missing limbs. And why does a german striker being "accurate" challenge your rather dull favorite statistic?

And I don't think Livvie said anything about this Max guy being the best. Just the most accurate. How that is worked out I don't know but it could be number of goals per shot on goal. In which case he might have had 5 shots and scored 5 goals in an entire season. It doesn't make him the best but then nobody claimed he was.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The point I was trying to make is that statistics are often meaningless. I tried to work three comments into one argument.
Comment 1 (from Kemo) OPTA index results clearly show that behind Pires, Veron is the second best attacking midfielder in the prem
Comment 2 (from Mamboza)I like this!!! Facts and not just opinion.
Comment 3 (from Raoul) Ole was the 2nd most accurate striker in the world last year, behind Martin Max of 1860 Munich.

The stats might say Max was the most accurate striker but was he the best? He is not among the six strikers chosen by Germany. If we bought a new striker I would prefer Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Morientes, Vieri, Crespo, Owen, Larsson, Vassell, Cisse etc, etc, etc. I think most fans would agree because I don't remember anyone suggesting we buy Max.

If the stats are that meaningless about strikers, can we trust them for midfielders? I doubt it. If OPTA index results 'prove' Veron was the second best attacking midfielder last season, the OPTA index is flawed. I was not aguing for or against Ole. I was trying to point out that using stats isn't always sensible.

 

[Raoul]

Originally posted by dicko:
<strong>...Comment 3 (from Raoul) Ole was the 2nd most accurate striker in the world last year, behind Martin Max of 1860 Munich.

The stats might say Max was the most accurate striker but was he the best? He is not among the six strikers chosen by Germany. If we bought a new striker I would prefer Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Raul, Morientes, Vieri, Crespo, Owen, Larsson, Vassell, Cisse etc, etc, etc. I think most fans would agree because I don't remember anyone suggesting we buy Max.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Statistics are meant to be taken in context. I didn't suggest that Max was the best striker in the world, and hence Ole is 2nd best. The numbers were merely meant to illustrate that Ole is a very good/accurate goal scorer, which he is. The numbers aren't meant to imply anything beyond the obvious.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Statistics are meant to be taken in context. I didn't suggest that Max was the best striker in the world, and hence Ole is 2nd best. The numbers were merely meant to illustrate that Ole is a very good/accurate goal scorer, which he is. The numbers aren't meant to imply anything beyond the obvious.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree 100%. My point is :- If the stats 'prove' Veron was the second best attacking midfielder in the premiership last season, the stats are wrong. If Veron was that good last year he would be earning rave reviews or comments about being worth the money.

Despite his poor first year, I think we should keep him. I believe he needs time to settle in. We have bought many players who struggled at first but proved to be good buys.

Seb's comparitive failure at the World Cup might actually work in our favour. Nicky Butt's improvement means central midfield should be two from Keane, Butt, Veron and Scholes. Next season I think Fergie will select more on form than reputation. I think the players are going to concentrate on playing against the opposition rather than worrying about how to accommodate Seb. If Seb fails to adapt, he should go but I think a player of his ability will adapt.

 

[Livvie]

Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

Statistics are meant to be taken in context. I didn't suggest that Max was the best striker in the world, and hence Ole is 2nd best. The numbers were merely meant to illustrate that Ole is a very good/accurate goal scorer, which he is. The numbers aren't meant to imply anything beyond the obvious.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Well call me old-fashioned - but as the idea of the game is to stick the ball in the net, maybe having the most accurate scorer wouldn't be a bad idea. Regardless of whether he's the "best".
I don't care what a player does off the ball if he can score nearly 30 goals a season. So why haven't we been linked with this Max chappie.

 

[dicko]

Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


So why haven't we been linked with this Max chappie.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've just checked a bit elsewhere. He will be 34 in August. Voeller is quoted as syaying Max missed the German WC squad because of lack of international experience. Probably means he had fifteen shit years before last season.