The Veron Tragedy, Act II

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next season every player on the team will do well. the hunger is back. with an addition of Nesta (if), we will get even better, CL is a possibility. and i do believe that Veron will do well.

that is the kind of outlook that could only help a newcomer to the club, not blame the whole season on him while knowing damn f*cking well that it was the defense which failed.

Veron will do well, so will Keano. all these Veron/Kean gossip dumbasses will then raise the lanterns to welcome their heroes. what a bunch of hipocrites.
 
Its a fair assessment Jip Jaap. Much though I'd like Veron to come good. As far as his current form, who knows he may be suffering an injury.

I'd be happy if he could just get more of the simple passes right like Keano is expert at.
 
When the time comes Fergie will make his move. There WILL be players moving on, Veron may well be one of them. He is NOT happy in England nor is his family. He has not bothered to learn the language to much and he has been treated as a loner a bit.
He is injured and has not adapted to the style of play with the likes of Keano,Butt and Scholes who play a similar role to him. He is a very talented and gifted player and to a certain extent the club has to take some blame for his failings.
I feel that had McLaren still been at the club then we may have seen a different Veron. Ryan is NOT a paticularly good right hand man and was doing a stop gap job and I think this reflected in a lot of the teams performances .
The appointment of Queiroz is a reflection on the failure to perform as we should, Fergie can only do so much and much of the performance ON the pitch is a reflection on the training and coaching that goes on prior to a game which is not handled on a day to day basis by Fergie.
Maybe Fergie will wait and see what Queiroz can do with Veron, at least he will able to talk to him.
Whatever happens I will have faith in Fergie and the boys, whoever they may be. We judge by the performance on the pitch and who knows what goes on behind the scenes. Just ask why Yorkie suddenly is no good.
 
Originally posted by PhillipVIII:
<strong>
Veron will do well, so will Keano. all these Veron/Kean gossip dumbasses will then raise the lanterns to welcome their heroes. what a bunch of hipocrites.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I'm sure you've won the lottery as well. Such are your powers for seeing into the future.

And since when has stating a fact been hypocritical? Veron hasn't - as yet - performed to expectation. When he does, he'll get the credit he deserves.

That's life, not hypocracy.

Or, should Veron not figure much, and Scholes/Butt be very instrumental in us winning trophies, will you be the hypocrite then for voicing your support for them?
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Originally posted by PhillipVIII:
<strong>next season every player on the team will do well. the hunger is back. with an addition of Nesta (if), we will get even better, CL is a possibility. and i do believe that Veron will do well.

that is the kind of outlook that could only help a newcomer to the club, not blame the whole season on him while knowing damn f*cking well that it was the defense which failed.

Veron will do well, so will Keano. all these Veron/Kean gossip dumbasses will then raise the lanterns to welcome their heroes. what a bunch of hipocrites.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, and I sure hope you're right - but I definitely wouldn't bet good money on it!

I think it is pretty obvious that United's midfield is unbalanced. As I said above, when Fergie bought him I was under the impression that he had a 'faster', more penetrative style of play than he actually has. Those who said that Veron can't play as a winger or as a withdrawn striker were dead right. He's a classic playmaker and a fantastic one at that (on his day!) but it's pretty clear that United have other, more pressing needs than yet another player with playmaking abilities and pretentions...
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if any of you follow Veron's path you will know that his first season at Lazio was worst than one at United. that is the truth. after that it was the double.

he's a United player. i believe it is best to back him, and not bash him, especially when he's been tormented and unsettled by your very own media which SAF and the United board got pissed about.

he is trying, and he will keep trying, he's not Dwight who until now we still don't know wtf happened.

when SAF and Becks back Veron, i'll take their word for it. as to the fans who refused to see the real problem with this team over last season i can only be amused, sadden and could only wish that i was in the Arse forum.

there is a reason why SAF is looking to buy a central DEFENDER. if there's a solid reason for why we didn't do well it's the incompetent defense and a very entertaining Barthez.
 
A couple of points P8. Veron is NOT a United player in his heart, like I stated before he and his family are far from settled in England.

United are, have been and always will be a team that does not rely on defence. They are an attacking team hence their popularity worldwide.

Veron is a very talented player, unfortunately his style is not Uniteds style. United expect the midfield players to tackle back and supplement the defence, Veron does not relish that task, he is a playmaker and as such unfortunately does not fit in the the current style of play.

Veron was also guilty more than others of costing United critical points by wayward and short passes at crital stages of the game. Our defence had commited to moving foreward and were caught short more than once by his bad passing.

This is not a Veron bashing but just pointing out some observations that I feel will see him moving on.
I think you will see O'Shea develop into a regular if can stay injury free and Brown will just get better and better. I can see Fergie adding a couple of defenders but don't expect much more than that.

Ferdinand will be the building block that will form the basis of the defence and with him giving more confidence at the back I expect us to get back to a free flowing game again.
 
It's not Veron-bashing for me, as much as rooting for Scholes and Butt.

These are the players who are United through and through, which should be remembered when we get the comments about sticking by United players.

If Veron stays, fine. But no-one will convince me that he should be in the team on past reputation alone.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>It's not Veron-bashing for me, as much as rooting for Scholes and Butt.

These are the players who are United through and through, which should be remembered when we get the comments about sticking by United players.

If Veron stays, fine. But no-one will convince me that he should be in the team on past reputation alone.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Spot on Ole!

;)
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This slagging off of JSV must stop. Fact : He is a united player and he will be at Utd next season, so lets support him. Stop thinking about the 28 million. He did not place that price-tag. Lazio did.

I for one wish him a good 2002/2003 season.
<img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />
 
Originally posted by Due South:
<strong>This slagging off of JSV must stop. Fact : He is a united player and he will be at Utd next season, so lets support him. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair enough.

But how then, do we voice support for Scholes and Butt? Because they can't all play.
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Livvie - Why do you assume Veron always plays when fit?
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>Livvie - Why do you assume Veron always plays when fit?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't recall many times when he was on the bench. In fact, I remember several comments about not being able to put a 28mill. player on the bench.

Maybe it just seems like he played most matches.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I don't recall many times when he was on the bench. In fact, I remember several comments about not being able to put a 28mill. player on the bench.

Maybe it just seems like he played most matches.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is a baseless rumour.

Veron played alot last season because he was playing better than Scholes, plain and simple. It seems Schole's late return to form this season has made people forget how wretchedly he played for at least half of last season.
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Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

That is a baseless rumour.

Veron played alot last season because he was playing better than Scholes, plain and simple. It seems Schole's late return to form this season has made people forget how wretchedly he played for at least half of last season.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But Scholes poor form was mainly down to being played out of position to accommodate Veron!!!!
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

But Scholes poor form was mainly down to being played out of position to accommodate Veron!!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Err, no. Even when Veron did not play he was absoloutely awful. Think the West Ham game at home, not to mention Veron being moved out to the right for 10 games during Christman. Hold on, that isn't his position is it?
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Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

Err, no. Even when Veron did not play he was absoloutely awful. Think the West Ham game at home, not to mention Veron being moved out to the right for 10 games during Christman. Hold on, that isn't his position is it?</strong><hr></blockquote>


So you don't think that Paul Scholes confidence suffered a lot from the early part of the season, and it took some while for him to start getting the momentum back??

Funny how he has generally performed well prior to all the sodding about, and since....

And how come it's OK for Paul Scholes to be criticised and not Veron?
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


So you don't think that Paul Scholes confidence suffered a lot from the early part of the season, and it took some while for him to start getting the momentum back??

Funny how he has generally performed well prior to all the sodding about, and since....

And how come it's OK for Paul Scholes to be criticised and not Veron?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Paul Scholes's form was terrible wherever he played at the beggining of the season, as well as Beckham.

So are you really saying it's impossible for Scholes to have a dip in form??? Beckham had one and he wasn't moved about? Come off it!

Who says it's ok to slate one player over another? That's my point, it's not.
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i say give veron 1 more season injury free hopfeully to prove himself, now that we have a technical number 2, we might see a sytem that has blend in with the rest of the team.

maybe a new rock solid defence and players like nistelroy, keane and neville fresher for the new season we might see a more hungier more tigerish team, as we have major things to prove.

but we defionately need a fast CB, maybe ferdinand or thuram who knows, we already have balnc who's postional sense is the best i have seen a in a defender for a long time, but he needs a fast partner to make up for his lack of pace against the likes of owen, henry etc..

next year balnc could be replaced by his french heir, Mexes (hopefully).
so we definately need 1 w/class CB this year.
 
maybe weron maybe fresher too as he has been dumped out of the world cup. he could also undergo the knife to sort his achilles heel problems.

i really wanted england and argentina to qualify just for reason of seing veron prove his doubters wrong.


maybe now that england beat the argies amybe the press will ease up on him.

but lets look at the brighter side of incidents such as france, argies and keano going home, fisrtly it make the world cup easier for englanmd and secondly manchester united will have much fresher players after a long hard season. players that cant wait to get onto pitch and prove we are still the best.
 
sorry for my spelling mistakes as i typed it all quite fast.
 
Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

Paul Scholes's form was terrible wherever he played at the beggining of the season, as well as Beckham.

So are you really saying it's impossible for Scholes to have a dip in form??? Beckham had one and he wasn't moved about? Come off it!

Who says it's ok to slate one player over another? That's my point, it's not.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Paul Scholes started the season in an unfavoured position. Surely that isn't in dispute???

Of course it isn't impossible for Scholes to have a dip in form. When he's playing in his natural position and it happens, then he should be rested on on the bench. Same for all players.

It isn't a question of slating one player over another but there are people who won't hear a bad word against Veron at all.

If Veron is playing better than Scholes and Butt, he should play. If he isn't, then he shouldn't.

How can that be wrong?
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maybe now that england beat the argies maybe the press will ease up on him.

yup, and the non-believers will line up to kiss his lampshade.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

Paul Scholes started the season in an unfavoured position. Surely that isn't in dispute???

Of course it isn't impossible for Scholes to have a dip in form. When he's playing in his natural position and it happens, then he should be rested on on the bench. Same for all players.

It isn't a question of slating one player over another but there are people who won't hear a bad word against Veron at all.

If Veron is playing better than Scholes and Butt, he should play. If he isn't, then he shouldn't.

How can that be wrong?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's not and nothing I have said has disputed the fact that off form players should be dropped.
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Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

It's not and nothing I have said has disputed the fact that off form players should be dropped.</strong><hr></blockquote>


So the dispute is actually about whether or not Veron was off form for most of last season?
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>


So the dispute is actually about whether or not Veron was off form for most of last season?</strong><hr></blockquote>

No, the dispute is about whether or Veron has taken more Flak than he deserves in comparison to the rest of the players.
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Originally posted by JSV:
<strong>

No, the dispute is about whether or Veron has taken more Flak than he deserves in comparison to the rest of the players.</strong><hr></blockquote>

In view of the hype, the amount of money spent, and the fact that players like Butt and Scholes are the likeliest to suffer, then the answer is no.

You become one of the costliest players in the world and it goes with the territory.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

In view of the hype, the amount of money spent, and the fact that players like Butt and Scholes are the likeliest to suffer, then the answer is no.

You become one of the costliest players in the world and it goes with the territory.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Players like Butt and Scholes will suffer at the hands of management and themselves and not Veron. What he cost is not up to him and is dictated by market forces. He deserves as much support as anyone else and should not be singled out, which you've pretty much admitted to doing, which IMO is totally wrong.
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Livvie 20 believes support for Veron = no support for Butt and scholes. This is not true. Butt and scholes are loved and appreciated but they will not be able to play every match beause of form or injury.
There are far too many matches these days for players not to be rested at some stage of the season. So there will always be space for other midfielders to come in.
Our bad season last year was not due entirely on Veron. It was a culmination of events such as bad defence, bad goalkeeping, lack of urgency from the midfield in defense, change in formation and inability to adapt to different formations.

Our biggest mistake was that the other 9 players (excluding GK) waiting for Veron to do magic everytime he got the ball or were trying to change their way of play to accomodate Veron's style. Instead the rest of the team should have been trying to play their (Utd) way and this would have made for a smoother transition. Eventually Veron will click with the team and Utd will be stronger for it. Eventually Utd will have adapted some of Veron's style.

<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> :D
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

In view of the hype, the amount of money spent, and the fact that players like Butt and Scholes are the likeliest to suffer, then the answer is no.

You become one of the costliest players in the world and it goes with the territory.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Juz like to point out like someone did earlier, Veron did not set himself a price tag of 28m pounds. Lazio did. So are we expecting a letter of explanation from Lazio and the PLC, detailing the reasons for the flop of Veron in his 1st season anytime now??
:cool:
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After today - Argies goin' out - its now up to Veron. He can show he's class or he can sulk away. Think I know which one it'll be but I'll wait and see!
 
I agree fully with Livvie who seems to feel that with the arrival of Veron, Butt and Scholes seem to be losing their places in the team NOT because of Veron playing better, but rather because Veron is the clubs record signing by a large margin and hence is supposedly one of the "best players" who cannot be left out of the lineup no matter how poorly he performs. This is definately true because, no matter what people say, Veron had a pathetic season. In contrast Scholes and Butt had good season although Scholes started a bit badly because he was played out of position to make way for Veron once again. Yet Veron was rarely ever benched or dropped unless he was injured. If Veron wants to play all the time then he has to give his best and show that he is the right man for the position like Scholes and Butt have to. If he wants to continue in the team just because he is the record signing, he will have to accept any criticism that he gets.

In any event, I dont think Veron will be at Utd. next season. He is clearly unhappy and has said that few Italian clubs are interested and he has to discuss his future at Utd. And personally, I think that the sooner Veron leaves, the better it will be for the team.
 
It isn't rare that players have their ups and downs. Football fans should recognize this. Henry was crap at Juv, Viera was shit at Milan, Tommasson was average at Newcastle etc. The thing is, a bad patch can occur, but it doesn't degrade the quality and the talent of exceptional players. Veron quality is no hype, I think we can all agree on this, even Beck, Scholes, and SAF all think so. Yet we can't just wait endlessly for his form to return. If he doesn't hit form soon, then we can't afford the wait, and it would we very dissapoiting to lose such talent. We can only hope that he will get better asap, and prove his worth to United. But I do have a hunch that he may give up premier league soon. With the endless disapointment he's faced, from 2000-the poor WC2002 exit, there is a good chance that he would want some changes. I think it will come to him wanting to leave rather than us wanting to sell him. Too bad, not unlike a perfect marraige breaking up.
 
All our midfielders played poorly this year, the only player to make an improvement is probably Butt.

The rest did their usual jobs, but they did it much less. Scholes didnt score so much, Keane lost a few big battles and Beckham didnt creae that much, although he scored more. Giggs didnt do as well as he usually does throughout a season. So all our players went down. Is that Veron's fault too?

The problem is everyone expected the next Bergkamp/Cantona. But he is more comfortable in Keane's position. Plays more like Gerrard than Bergkamp. Could Gerrard play in the hole? Is he a shit player?

If anything our defence should be the scapegoat, Barthez v Arsenal cost us the league. Brown v Bolton. Or Forlan perhaps? If Cole was here, he would've gotten at least 5 goals in 15 games, winning us the league maybe.

Until the day Veron turns his back on the fans, we should be making every effort to get the best out of him. Even if only from a selfish point of view, if we get him to perform, it can only be good for us.
 
If anything our defence should be the scapegoat, Barthez v Arsenal cost us the league.

been saying that all along.
 
Most fans say last season was a disaster because we won nothing. However if just ONE of the following had gone our way we would probably have won the premiership and possibly champions league
1) Had a fourth striker
2) Kept Jaap Stam
3) Bartez played similar to his first season
4) The defence had not lost confidence
5) Veron played anywhere near his ability.
There are other factors that are less clear but could have affected(no coach, lack of hunger of some players, Fergie's on/off retirement, etc)

Dealing with the others.
1) I am sure that we will have another striker next year even if Dwight Yorke stays. Not spending $4 million for Di Canio could cost much more - particularly if we fail to make the Champions League.
2,3,4) Fergie has said we will try for Nesta, Ayala has said he is likely to join. Clearly there are going to be major defensive signings. I would be happy with the following squad:-
FBs Silvestre, the Nevilles and a player of international standard. Roberto Carlos would be great but Finnan or Bridge would be good enough.
CBs Brown and O'Shea continuing to develop. Two from Blanc, Nesta, Ayala or similar. (Like many I have cooled a bit on Thuram).
Good though Ronnie Johnsen is, I think his injuries cause problems for stability. Fergie cannot pick and choose when to play O'Shea and, to a lesser extent, Brown.
5) Veron arrived as the finished article. He was our most expensive signing and the player who would, hopefully, win us the Champions League. It was difficult for Fergie to drop him so he played when off form, especially during his first season. I think Nicky Butt's improvement could be a big factor. At the start of last season he was Keano's deputy. Now he is a legitimate first teamer. Our first choice central midfield last year was Veron (for reasons stated above) and Keano. Now I believe it is either Keano or Butt and either Scholes or Veron. Veron has had enough chances and has to hold a place on merit not reputation. I am sure that he is aware of this and so is Fergie. Keano also has to maintain his high standards or he will lose out to Butt.

Next season is looking good.
 
Seba's poor performances over the past week and a half were just a smokescreen so nobody would want to buy him and the press would stop linking him with every club under the sun. ;)
 
Originally posted by ShAoLiN_ChRoNiC:
<strong>All
Barthez v Arsenal cost us the league. Brown v Bolton. Or Forlan perhaps? If Cole was here, he would've gotten at least 5 goals in 15 games, winning us the league maybe.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're having a laugh right??

Barthez made more saves than errors.

Forlan was new to the club and even if he didn't score, he contributed to some of our victories.

Cole would have scored another five. Pure speculation. You don't know what would have happened if Cole had played - but it's unlikely that Cole and A.N.Other would have scored more goals than we actually did - we had the highest scoring partnership for decades ffs. If Cole had been playing and scored another five, we would have lost some of the goals we did score!!

Everyone in the team was guilty of either missing a goal, or letting one in. The defence was definitely the weakest link, but the blame doesn't lie solely with any one person or any one part of the field.

That isn't the issue imo. The issue is should JSV play ahead of Scholes or Butt. Simple.
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That isn't the issue imo. The issue is should JSV play ahead of Scholes or Butt. Simple.

of course, that's why we lost last season. well duh..

times like this i really wonder if i'm in the Arse forum by mistake...
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>
Forlan was new to the club and even if he didn't score, he contributed to some of our victories.

Everyone in the team was guilty of either missing a goal, or letting one in. The defence was definitely the weakest link, but the blame doesn't lie solely with any one person or any one part of the field.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Its not how many you score, or who scores them. Its when you score and who against.

I can guarantee Cole would've scored more than Forlan. Even if we ended up with less Goals Total, Cole would've bagged us some points when RVN and Ole are shooting blanks - do you see?

Barthez v Arsenal cost us the league. We may have lost a different game, but this one in particular was the one that lost us the league. Now I'm not blaming Barthez, in the same way I'm not blaming Veron.

I'm asking why Veron Tragedy and not Barthez Tragedy? Stupid fickle fan behaviour perhaps? Based on world cup performances, we should really sell most of our squad and get the Senegal team.

As for "Forlan is new to the club yet contributed to our victories".

Isnt Veron? Isnt this abit unfair? Forlan speaks English, he has little pressure compared to Veron, he has been played in his natural position, unlike Veron, he has been injury free.

Just like you defend Barthez + Forlan (who have let us down as much as Veron has) - why the Hell cant you turn that affection onto Veron? This scapegoat above all our players right now needs that the most.

Just when the media are rounding up for the final blow and his entire nation blames him for not being superman, the Utd fans turn against him. He must be very alone right now and you cant expect him to perform like some circus elephant. Its not as if he has turned his back on us like Yorke has. Or put himself before his country like Keane has, or got sent off in a stupid incident like Beckham has.

If he ever does then slaughter him, but right now he still wears a Man Utd shirt - I dont see why people are against him. Why is it Butt AND Scholes vs Veron? Isnt it Butt vs Scholes vs Keane Vs Veron vs Giggs vs Beckham? Final point is they are all capable of great performances and they are all capable of poor ones, hence this singling out of Veron should be left to the tabloids and jealous ex-clubs.

As for selection, thats up to Fergie, and it doesnt matter who starts because as I said - they are all capable of good and bad, its impossible to predict how they will play.
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