The Veron Tragedy, Act II

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Used to be Jip Jaap

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Passing judgement on JSV's United future on the basis of one game against England is silly. He was probably hindered by the tendonitis problem he's had in his Achilles for a long time now - and the way the Argies play he's always going to be in problems when their game plan doesn't work, always going to look exposed.
There's little doubt that Veron regrets moving to England. The playing style, the mentality, the weather - it's probably all wrong. He's a proud man and hasn't started whining but it seems pretty obvious that only his pride prevents him from moving heaven and earth to get back to Serie A. And he's arguably carrying these frustrations with him into the world cup (not to mention a serious injury that'll almost certainly require surgery and three or four months out at some stage). On this basis you cannot expect to see what he's capable of...

However, I do think you can pass judgement on United's "Veron experiment" on the basis of an entire season with only 5-6 genuinely satisfactory performances. Time to evaluate:

First question:
Do we want to reshuffle the team completely in order to give JSV the chance to, hopefully, show his worth?

I'd say "no". The Prem is not Serie A and it probably wouldn't work trying to change everything to accommodate one player - with a huge risk that it wouldn't even improve our playing quality or results.

Second question:
Veron is still worth a lot of money. Given the previous point, is that money placed where it earns United the best possible "interest" (i.e. bound to a player who isn't really needed and doesn't fit into the existing side)?

I'd say "no". United have an abundance; no, make that an overabundance of players that like to orchestrate and dictate play. And lack top notch defenders and speedy attacking players with dribbling skills. That money would be better placed there.

Unfortunately, I don't think there's a chance in hell that Fergie will do anything about this. Too much pride invested - and furthermore it would be a problem to find anybody willing to meet United's asking price given Veron's chronic injury problems. I fear that JSV's stay in England could end in a very undignified manner.

I was enthusiatic when Fergie bought him but I think the club will need to learn that buying established star players carries a risk. It would be foolish to take the Veron tragedy as a reason for the world's richest club to stop bidding for the world's best players but two lessons should be learned: make damn sure sure that the player you bid for is the right player AND be willing to admit it if the "right player" turns out not to be so right after all - and take appropriate action!

Hopefully, United learning this lesson will be the one good thing to come out of this Tragedy.
 
mm... someone tell me please, is it English to repeat shite over and over and f*cking over again...for f*ck sake people, this is the 2,345,157 negative thread about Veron and he's only been at United for one season.

this just in...Veron was spotted at the Argie McPhuck Pub with what appears to be Roy Kean's boots up his arse...more Veron bs, at 11.
 
Originally posted by PhillipVIII:
<strong>mm... someone tell me please, is it English to repeat shite over and over and f*cking over again...for f*ck sake people, this is the 2,345,157 negative thread about Veron and he's only been at United for one season.

this just in...Veron was spotted at the Argie McPhuck Pub with what appears to be Roy Kean's boots up his arse...more Veron bs, at 11.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. I have decided to ignore any Veron (or Keane) issue until the season starts. We just keep repeating and rereading the same stuff over and over and yet over again. Let's just wait and see what SAF does, period.

I'm well and truly fed up with it. <img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" />
 
BTW, Jip Jaap, don't take it personal, we could have said the same in any other Veron related thread.

I guess it actually came up here because you pretty much reflected hundreds of threads in one post.
 
Good post Jip Jaap. Just as you said, the money used to bought Veron should be used in a defender instead, and if we have done that our last season may not have ended in this way. However, the next season is a new season. It seems now Fergie would already have the money to buy some players. Whether Veron will stay or not is another thing. Personally I don't mind him to stay as a backup for Keano or Beckham ;)
 
Originally posted by PhillipVIII:
<strong>mm... someone tell me please, is it English to repeat shite over and over and f*cking over again...for f*ck sake people, this is the 2,345,157 negative thread about Veron and he's only been at United for one season.

this just in...Veron was spotted at the Argie McPhuck Pub with what appears to be Roy Kean's boots up his arse...more Veron bs, at 11.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I don't think my post was "shite".

And I'm well aware that some of what I said has been said before. The "new" point I wanted to make is that this club is actually very inexperienced when it comes to buying players who have already established themselves as world class stars. When you buy a superexpensive 27 year old (soon to be 28) who has already established himself firmly in a specific position, you don't expect him to require a two year settling-in period! It's ok if a Riise, a Pires, a Forlan, a Van Nistelrooy or whoever take some time. But none of those players fitted into the above category when they were bought.

Of course, in some cases it makes sense to persevere but in most cases both the club and said world star have to accept that things aren't right and part ways.

I would be willing to bet whoever quite a significant sum that Veron will never become a hit for United. Not because he's not an super player but because the two don't fit each other. He will not "adapt" to the English game; and Fergie's United will not try and mould the team around him. The outcome is predictable...

The Argies play a system that allows Veron to play as a genuine, "free" playmaker. United's traditions as well as the demands of the Prem rule this out! Is there any team in the Prem that plays ANYTHING like this? NO!

The really amazing thing is that some people still fail to accept this.
 
Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>Jiip Jaap, best sense ive heard around here in ages.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree.


Unfortunately, <img src="graemlins/yawn.gif" border="0" alt="[Yawn]" /> , some people still see that as slagging off a United player, not getting behind your team etc.
 
I was elated when United signed Veron but was puzzled. We already had what was arguably the best midfield in the World and although Fergie tried just about every combination he could to fit him in it never happened. It wasn't really Veron's fault. You just can't expect a team like United to work around one player when they have several established playmakers. Admittedly Veron has been plagued by injuries this season and still doesn't appear to be over them but he is not doing himself any favours if he keeps spouting off about the possibility of moving. I f there comes a choice between Ferdinand and Veron I know which one I'd choose.
:cool:
 
And I'm sorry - but does injury make you do a lot of misplaced passes? Which Veron has.
 
for what it's worth (and i know it's just a silly computer game)...
i put veron in a free role with a 3-4-3 formation around him in Championship Manager. he's the player of the year on a consistent basis both in england and in europe.
while i'm not suggesting that united try this, it's certainly the role he is given with argentina and one where he seems to flourish.
the only time he plays poorly (ie, below 9 or 10) is when the other team man marks him (as england did yesterday... kind of).
something to think about... (perhaps!)
utid <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>We should sell Veròn for 20-30m and buy Riquelme for 6m, using the spare funds to buy some defenders. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sure SAF would have other ideas. :p
 
Hmm...

Anyway, why don't the so-called United fans take to the streets to demonstrate to the PLC and forcing them to sell Veron if people hated him so much? I'm sure the PLC will take notice and presto he will be out. Problem solved and everyone happy!

Anyway that's my opinion.

Why can't people give him one more year to proved his worth and if it's the same next year then I'm sure SAF would take notice of the it!

Take an example of Beckham. After the 1998 WC who get behind him? It's the United fans. and this give him back the confidence to face the world again. IMO if there is no supports from United fans during that time, I would not think Beckham would have been Beckham now.

Therefore, why can't we support veron for once this year. If he still perform mediocre, then off with him. Don't you think it's fair?
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

He probably has, but even Sir Alex can have wrong ideas - unfortunately</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sure Sir Alex would be more patient than us!
 
Originally posted by pjaya:
<strong>
Therefore, why can't we support veron for once this year. If he still perform mediocre, then off with him. Don't you think it's fair?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Oh, none would be happier than me if Seba proves everyone wrong and has a blinding season next, and I will get behind him and support him like all the other players.

I also hope that he will accept that he at the moment does not deserve to be more than our 6th choice midfielder.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Oh, none would be happier than me if Seba proves everyone wrong and has a blinding season next, and I will get behind him and support him like all the other players.

I also hope that he will accept that he at the moment does not deserve to be more than our 6th choice midfielder.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm sure he know his position very well and would fight for his position, but unfortunately WC happen this year and he has to carry the weight of the argies now. I'm sure he is under immerse pressure to perform. Hopefully he won't crack up at this moment!
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Oh, none would be happier than me if Seba proves everyone wrong and has a blinding season next, and I will get behind him and support him like all the other players.

I also hope that he will accept that he at the moment does not deserve to be more than our 6th choice midfielder.</strong><hr></blockquote>

My problem with Veron has always been exactly that. It may not be his own opinion, but it seems to be the opinion of a few supporters, that Veron should be in the team whatever. And that's not fair to Scholes or Butt.

Veron should be in the team if his form warrants it. None of this "He'll get better" crap. He should be in the team when he has got better, not use Premiership and CL matches as a training ground.
 
?Veron will be our best player next season. Hewas bought to relive the lack of depth problems we had in prevoius seasons when Becks and Giggs plus Scholesy needed rests. And In my opinion he does that perfectly. Let him have an injury free and eventless pre season and you will see a marvelous change. You will love Veron to death! :cool:
 
Originally posted by kemo:
<strong> And In my opinion he does that perfectly. </strong><hr></blockquote>

He has the potential to do it perfectly you mean - you can't say he has done it perfectly so far.
 
SAF will re-evaluate what role Seba will play in the first-team next season imo. Hopefully this summer he can get his injury problems sorted once and for all, and put last season behind him. Scholes and Butt should be given as many chances as possible while Veròn should be used as our secret weapon so to speak.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>And I'm sorry - but does injury make you do a lot of misplaced passes? Which Veron has.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Butt just came back from an injury and produced a world-class display against the argies

Keano was plagued by injuries all of last season (that troublesome knee) and I can't recall any match where he let us down with his play.

The only worry is if Veron is still around next season, Sir Alex would have some problems fitting him into the midfield again - in short, same old story.
 
Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>SAF will re-evaluate what role Seba will play in the first-team next season imo. Hopefully this summer he can get his injury problems sorted once and for all, and put last season behind him. Scholes and Butt should be given as many chances as possible while Veròn should be used as our secret weapon so to speak.</strong><hr></blockquote>

"Secret weapon"? Hmm, I can't really imagine that Senor Veron will be happy with that role! ;)

When United bought JSV I thought that he was much more multifunctional than he actually is. Once again, United's midfield packs tremendous talent but it isn't balanced! What we really need IMO is a player in the Ljungberg/Pires category and a lively and superfast striker. We've got Giggs but he's injuryprone and our opponents have learnt how to counter the threat he poses on his own. We need players who dart into attacking positions and can take on defenders. In Veron, Scholes, Becks and Keane we've got four players who are capable of playing the killer pass - but often they haven't got anybody to pass to.

Noticed how well Owen and Scholes combined against Argentina? We need more of that...
 
Originally posted by Used to be Jip Jaap:
<strong>

"Secret weapon"? Hmm, I can't really imagine that Senor Veron will be happy with that role! ;)

When United bought JSV I thought that he was much more multifunctional than he actually is. Once again, United's midfield packs tremendous talent but it isn't balanced! What we really need IMO is a player in the Ljungberg/Pires category and a lively and superfast striker. We've got Giggs but he's injuryprone and our opponents have learnt how to counter the threat he poses on his own. We need players who dart into attacking positions and can take on defenders. In Veron, Scholes, Becks and Keane we've got four players who are capable of playing the killer pass - but often they haven't got anybody to pass to.

Noticed how well Owen and Scholes combined against Argentina? We need more of that...</strong><hr></blockquote>

When you put it that way, I can't really argue.
 
Originally posted by Gazza:
<strong>Funny. One player came to mind when I read that: Andres D'Allesandro. :D Never gonna happen though. :( </strong><hr></blockquote>

I've never seen him play. What's his current position?

And why will it never happen?
 
Originally posted by Used to be Jip Jaap:
<strong>

I've never seen him play. What's his current position?

And why will it never happen?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Traditionally he plays as an attaking midfielder in the centre for River Plate, but he likes to roam all over the pitch. He's Argentinian, and just 21. I think he was left out of the Argie's WC squad, but he should have been included imo. He won't sign because the PLC won't sign a young unproved player for a projected 15-20m. Also, SAF doesn't really need another midfielder, so he won't come unless Seba leaves. D'Alessandro looks like he'll be at Juve or somewhere in Italy by 2003.
 
After Coley was gone, we now seems to have Veron to slag off. Come on, if it was not because we won nothing last season + he is an Argie & England had to face his team in WC, much less would have been criticised of his performance. Face it, we won nothing because of our sh_tty defence, letting in many more goals, while our scoring had always been verygood. Seba was only average last season admittedly, but we all had very high expectation of him coz of his price tag. Personally, I would agree with some of you that, with all the things that have happened, said, and done, we might now be better off selling him since he looks quite unsettled right now. But it is really ashamed that such a world class talent was wasted and not been given chance to perform due to what ever reasons. Anyway, I think since he is a United player, we should be more supportive of him rather than slagging him off. Then whatever happen, if he is sold, traded, or be put on the bench, then that's up to destiny. Personally, I have never heard of Seba saying or doing anything bad for United. He has been a loyal servant of the club. And in term of performance and contribution, there have been others who have done much worst than him the last season. Give the guy a break.
 
Originally posted by mamboza:
<strong> And in term of performance and contribution, there have been others who have done much worst than him the last season. Give the guy a break.</strong><hr></blockquote>

As a matter of interest, who?

11.05: No takers? I thought Mamboza might have given his opinion as he was reading the thread at 10.30, and he did make the original statement.

Barthez? A few stupid mistakes that we can count on one hand probably, but some crucial saves.

Blanc? Popular opinion is that he had a good season.

Gaz? His best season in ages.

Mikhael? Again, popular opinion says he is improving all the time.

Scholes? Messed around with at the beginning of the season, but gave some good performances when played in his preferred position.

Keane? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> As if.

Butt? Best season ever.

Becks? Scored more goals than ever b4.

Giggs? Not his best season. Could be him then, though he did have a few brilliant games.

Ruud? Yeah right.

Ole? 25 goals speaks for itself.
 
Err...if everybody played well enough last season, except Veron, I think we would have won something. We had a poor run which lasted for quite a while, and our defence was, as we all know it...sucks. I don't think Veron was responsible for that. Even Keano admitted that the fans should not have blamed the newcomers, he thought the former players were not giving it all. I'm just reciting his words. BTW, if Beck, Scholes, and Sir Alex all back Veron, I would too. If he has to leave for what ever reason, so be it. But for now, he's our player.
 
Excellent points Jip Jaap. You have spoken what many have dared not speak. Unfortunately, people seem to have come to the conclusion that a player of 28m should be given any amount of time to settle in to a team, but this is not the case. As you said the money would be better off if it were yielding a high return, which is sadly not the case with Veron.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

As a matter of interest, who?

11.05: No takers? I thought Mamboza might have given his opinion as he was reading the thread at 10.30, and he did make the original statement.

Barthez? A few stupid mistakes that we can count on one hand probably, but some crucial saves.

Blanc? Popular opinion is that he had a good season.

Gaz? His best season in ages.

Mikhael? Again, popular opinion says he is improving all the time.

Scholes? Messed around with at the beginning of the season, but gave some good performances when played in his preferred position.

Keane? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> As if.

Butt? Best season ever.

Becks? Scored more goals than ever b4.

Giggs? Not his best season. Could be him then, though he did have a few brilliant games.

Ruud? Yeah right.

Ole? 25 goals speaks for itself.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You forget Andy Cole, who in his last half-season for Utd. did more than Veron did. Veron is a world class player, but his heart is not at Utd. and you can see that from his low work rate and unwillingness to get back and tackle.
 
Originally posted by mamboza:
<strong>Err...if everybody played well enough last season, except Veron, I think we would have won something. We had a poor run which lasted for quite a while, and our defence was, as we all know it...sucks. I don't think Veron was responsible for that. Even Keano admitted that the fans should not have blamed the newcomers, he thought the former players were not giving it all. I'm just reciting his words. BTW, if Beck, Scholes, and Sir Alex all back Veron, I would too. If he has to leave for what ever reason, so be it. But for now, he's our player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You still didn't qualify your own comment that some players had performed worse than Veron.
 
So it comes to naming someone doesn't it?? Although I do have some players in mind, since I think you may not agree with my choice, I will avoid saying any names. Still I think footy is a team sport and I believe in collective responsibility. My opinion is that, we really shouldn't be pinpointing Veron for last season failure. But I agree, the 28 million could be used for many purpose, but this is purely an economic issue. ALso, whatever happen, Veron is still an exceptional player. If we couldn't get the best out of him while he's here then too bad.
 
Originally posted by mamboza:
<strong> My opinion is that, we really shouldn't be pinpointing Veron for last season failure. But I agree, the 28 million could be used for many purpose, but this is purely an economic issue. ALso, whatever happen, Veron is still an exceptional player. If we couldn't get the best out of him while he's here then too bad.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That's true enough.

Interesting tho that you say there were players who were worse than him, but then wouldn't name any.......why make the comment in the first place?

Of course Veron shouldn't be blamed entirely. But it seems to me that he isn't been given his fair share of the blame by some - it's become sacrilege to dare criticise JSV.

Maybe SAF is at fault then for selecting him ahead of Scholes or Butt? And that is the biggest problem I have with Veron. He's too big for the bench and that can't be right if it's a team game. He should earn his place in the team same as everyone else.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

That's true enough.

Interesting tho that you say there were players who were worse than him, but then wouldn't name any.......why make the comment in the first place?

Of course Veron shouldn't be blamed entirely. But it seems to me that he isn't been given his fair share of the blame by some - it's become sacrilege to dare criticise JSV.

Maybe SAF is at fault then for selecting him ahead of Scholes or Butt? And that is the biggest problem I have with Veron. He's too big for the bench and that can't be right if it's a team game. He should earn his place in the team same as everyone else.</strong><hr></blockquote>

That is the problem with buying 28m stars...they tend to think they are larger than the club because they are the record signing and hence can't be left on the bench. The only reason Veron plays so much is because Fergie is unwilling to admit that his 28m could have been better spent elsewhere. If Veron were treated equally with Scholes or Butt, would he displace either with his performances like those in last season ? I think not.
 
VEron stays in the team because of the wonders he does in training. Even Becks, giigs and Scholesy have all said, along with sir Alex that in training Veron does magical things. Sadly he has not done them often in macth situations. Howver, to claim Fergie could have spent 28m better you must be joking :eek: One year is not enough to judge and out field player. If Veron is shit next season then say he ws a fasilure. Else till then SHUT THE feck UP who says negative things about Veron FACT or FICTION!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
 
Originally posted by kemo:
<strong>. Else till then SHUT THE feck UP who says negative things about Veron FACT or FICTION!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: </strong><hr></blockquote>


Do they exercise freedom of speech in Uganda?

Just interested because they do here. And we're as entitled to criticise Veron as we are to praise him.

And it's not selling Veron that's the issue as far as I'm concerned. It's whether he should be playing ahead of Scholes or Butt, regardless of form.