The UEFA Euro Fantasy Draft

1. crappycraperson - 1. Platini 2. Figo 3. Tigana 4. Tardelli 5. Krol
2. Edgar Allan Pillow & MJJ & coolredwine - 1. Puskás 2. Masopust 3. Gullit 4. Breitner 5. Deschamps
3. Paolo Di Canio - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Blanc 3. Lev Yashin 4. van Nistelrooy 5. Gentile
4. The Stain - 1. Zidane 2. Czibor 3. Amancio 4. Förster 5. Zagorakis
5. Skizzo & Pat_Mustard - 1. van Basten 2. Netzer 3. Monti 4. Popluhár 5. Bonhof
6. Stobzilla - 1. Beckenbauer 2. B.Charlton 3. Bican 4. Gascoigne 5. Brian Laudrup
7. Joga Bonito - 1. Maldini 2. B.Moore 3. Sindelar 4. Bergomi 5. Effenberg
8. harms - 1. Dragan Džajić 2. Sárosi 3. Schuster 4. Voronin 5. Brehme
9. Aldo - 1. Xavi 2. Iniesta 3. Nedved 4. Lahm 5. Albert
10. Raees & Gio - 1. Rijkaard 2. Facchetti 3. Kohler 4. Henry 5. Zebec
11. Theon & NM - 1. Matthäus 2. Bozsik 3. Davids 4. Desailly 5. Sándor Kocsis
12. The Red Viper - 1. Gerd Müller 2. Sammer 3. Vieira 4. Shesternyov 5. Cannavaro
13. big red123 - 1. Cruyff 2. Baresi 3. Stoichkov 4. Michael Laudrup 5. Koeman
14. Šjor Bepo & Physiocrat - 1. Luis Suarez 2. Nesta 3. Hidegkuti 4. Ivanov 5.
15. ctp - 1. Rummenigge 2. Scirea 3. Ocwirk 4. Mazzola 5.
16. PedroMendez - 1. Meazza 2. Thuram 3. Schmeichel 4. Netto 5.

@Šjor Bepo & @Physiocrat
 
NM said:
Yeah. Its a good record, but not brilliant like his entire career to be fair. 6/10 isn't bad though tbh!
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Theon said:
Hungary won it in '53 I believe which is when Kocsis was in his prime and without a doubt one of the best players in the world.

In terms of his overall record, the stats are slightly skewed as there weren't many CEIC games in Kocsis' peak years - between 1950 and 1955 Kocsis scored 4 in 6 which is a nice return, and when he was in his prime.

Thats when he scored 11 goals in 5 games at the '54 World Cup of course. I've not got the slightest concerns about Kocsis's ability here.
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6/12, not in 10.

I wasn't questioning his ability, just stating an interesting fact - I was intrigued, when I looked at his international goals - his overall >1 goals per game record reduces in half when he plays in CEIC - I don't know, was that psychological, tactical or just the quality of the opponents? Or just luck? But 12 games is a pretty long distance
 
Harms.

True. But thats the reason he went in the fifth round. If he was at his absolute best like he was in the World Cups, he would have been a Top-3 round pick at least if not Top-2 round pick!
 
Photo_Giresse_Z.jpg
 
1. crappycraperson - 1. Platini 2. Figo 3. Tigana 4. Tardelli 5. Krol
2. Edgar Allan Pillow & MJJ & coolredwine - 1. Puskás 2. Masopust 3. Gullit 4. Breitner 5. Deschamps
3. Paolo Di Canio - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Blanc 3. Lev Yashin 4. van Nistelrooy 5. Gentile
4. The Stain - 1. Zidane 2. Czibor 3. Amancio 4. Förster 5. Zagorakis
5. Skizzo & Pat_Mustard - 1. van Basten 2. Netzer 3. Monti 4. Popluhár 5. Bonhof
6. Stobzilla - 1. Beckenbauer 2. B.Charlton 3. Bican 4. Gascoigne 5. Brian Laudrup
7. Joga Bonito - 1. Maldini 2. B.Moore 3. Sindelar 4. Bergomi 5. Effenberg
8. harms - 1. Dragan Džajić 2. Sárosi 3. Schuster 4. Voronin 5. Brehme
9. Aldo - 1. Xavi 2. Iniesta 3. Nedved 4. Lahm 5. Albert
10. Raees & Gio - 1. Rijkaard 2. Facchetti 3. Kohler 4. Henry 5. Zebec
11. Theon & NM - 1. Matthäus 2. Bozsik 3. Davids 4. Desailly 5. Sándor Kocsis
12. The Red Viper - 1. Gerd Müller 2. Sammer 3. Vieira 4. Shesternyov 5. Cannavaro
13. big red123 - 1. Cruyff 2. Baresi 3. Stoichkov 4. Michael Laudrup 5. Koeman
14. Šjor Bepo & Physiocrat - 1. Luis Suarez 2. Nesta 3. Hidegkuti 4. Ivanov 5. Giresse
15. ctp - 1. Rummenigge 2. Scirea 3. Ocwirk 4. Mazzola 5.
16. PedroMendez - 1. Meazza 2. Thuram 3. Schmeichel 4. Netto 5.
 
harms said:
6/12, not in 10.

I wasn't questioning his ability, just stating an interesting fact - I was intrigued, when I looked at his international goals - his overall >1 goals per game record reduces in half when he plays in CEIC - I don't know, was that psychological, tactical or just the quality of the opponents? Or just luck? But 12 games is a pretty long distance
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That's what I just said to you, those 12 games are over an 8 year period. There was no European Tournament as we know it now, the games were played over a number of years. The 5th CEIC and the 6th CEIC ran for six years each.

His peak was around 1952-1954 which is when he tore up the World Cup and the Olympic Games. And as I said to you in that post, in his peak years he scored 4 goals in 6 games and won the tournament in 1953.

At that time he was without a doubt one of the best footballers in the world and I'm not sure there is anything to suggest he wasn't as good in those CEIC games as he was in every other game in the mid 1950's.
 
The Red Viper said:
Harms.

True. But thats the reason he went in the fifth round. If he was at his absolute best like he was in the World Cups, he would have been a Top-3 round pick at least if not Top-2 round pick!
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Aye, can't argue with this.
 
I've been sitting here since I'd made my last pick, hoping nobody would go for him. Amazingly, it worked out. I pick marauding right back, Eric Gerets.

belgium-eric-gerets-233-orbis-1990-world-cup-collectable-sticker-49127-p.jpg
 
1. crappycraperson - 1. Platini 2. Figo 3. Tigana 4. Tardelli 5. Krol
2. Edgar Allan Pillow & MJJ & coolredwine - 1. Puskás 2. Masopust 3. Gullit 4. Breitner 5. Deschamps
3. Paolo Di Canio - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Blanc 3. Lev Yashin 4. van Nistelrooy 5. Gentile
4. The Stain - 1. Zidane 2. Czibor 3. Amancio 4. Förster 5. Zagorakis
5. Skizzo & Pat_Mustard - 1. van Basten 2. Netzer 3. Monti 4. Popluhár 5. Bonhof
6. Stobzilla - 1. Beckenbauer 2. B.Charlton 3. Bican 4. Gascoigne 5. Brian Laudrup
7. Joga Bonito - 1. Maldini 2. B.Moore 3. Sindelar 4. Bergomi 5. Effenberg
8. harms - 1. Dragan Džajić 2. Sárosi 3. Schuster 4. Voronin 5. Brehme
9. Aldo - 1. Xavi 2. Iniesta 3. Nedved 4. Lahm 5. Albert
10. Raees & Gio - 1. Rijkaard 2. Facchetti 3. Kohler 4. Henry 5. Zebec
11. Theon & NM - 1. Matthäus 2. Bozsik 3. Davids 4. Desailly 5. Sándor Kocsis
12. The Red Viper - 1. Gerd Müller 2. Sammer 3. Vieira 4. Shesternyov 5. Cannavaro
13. big red123 - 1. Cruyff 2. Baresi 3. Stoichkov 4. Michael Laudrup 5. Koeman
14. Šjor Bepo & Physiocrat - 1. Luis Suarez 2. Nesta 3. Hidegkuti 4. Ivanov 5. Giresse
15. ctp - 1. Rummenigge 2. Scirea 3. Ocwirk 4. Mazzola 5. Gerets
16. PedroMendez - 1. Meazza 2. Thuram 3. Schmeichel 4. Netto 5.

@PedroMendez
 
Theon said:
That's what I just said to you, those 12 games are over an 8 year period. There was no European Tournament as we know it now, the games were played over a number of years. The 5th CEIC and the 6th CEIC ran for six years each.

His peak was around 1952-1954 which is when he tore up the World Cup and the Olympic Games. And as I said to you in that post, in his peak years he scored 4 goals in 6 games and won the tournament in 1953.

At that time he was without a doubt one of the best footballers in the world and I'm not sure there is anything to suggest he wasn't as good in those CEIC games as he was in every other game in the mid 1950's.
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I don't agree with you, but I don't have the will to argue with you about this. You take some random 6 games (why 6? the games in 55/56 were played in a very short period of time, you should count them - but you stop at October when the next game is in November; and he also scores 5 goals in 3 games in the break between those IC games) and telling us that he was as good as he was at World Cup? No, he clearly wasn't.

He is a top striker, and 1 in 2 is still a decent stat, my concern here is how to rate him in this draft with the likes of Van Basten, Müller and other usual suspects, who are in the same bracket as him career-wise for me.

You are overly defensive, imo, and make me look like I somehow downplaying Kocsis, while I adore the guy and think that he is a brilliant pick, especially at this stage. I was curious about this statistical anomaly, but then you say that he was as good as he was at the World Cup and I have to argue. And I don't want to.
 
harms said:
6/12, not in 10.

I wasn't questioning his ability, just stating an interesting fact - I was intrigued, when I looked at his international goals - his overall >1 goals per game record reduces in half when he plays in CEIC - I don't know, was that psychological, tactical or just the quality of the opponents? Or just luck? But 12 games is a pretty long distance
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Can't argue with that. I was wondering why the difference myself, and will be doing some research. My first thought was that the CEIC teams were pretty good - Italy, Austria and the like were all at a good level, but I'm not really sure.
 
ctp said:
I've been sitting here since I'd made my last pick, hoping nobody would go for him. Amazingly, it worked out. I pick marauding right back, Eric Gerets.

belgium-eric-gerets-233-orbis-1990-world-cup-collectable-sticker-49127-p.jpg
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Yeah good call. Glad to see that fine Belgium side represented.
 
A nice article on Albert.

Florian Albert: Footballer whose stylish talents lit up grounds around the world
obitalbertEPA.jpg



Florian Albert, the 1967 European Footballer of the Year, was a sporting aristocrat. Not by any mere accident of lineage – he was born the son of a farmer/blacksmith on the Hungarian side of the border with the former Yugoslavia – but by dint of a decade and a half of oozing style and elegance in the shirts of his sole club, Ferencvaros, and his country, where they know a thing or two about exceptional players.

Albert grew up idolising Ferenc Puskas, the unarguable star of the Magyars who taught England a thing or two about the game by annihilating them twice in the early 1950s, yet he became more naturally the heir of the Galloping Major's infinitely subtle team-mate, Nandor Hidegkuti. As England's finest were put to the sword so ruthlessly it was the deep-lying centre-forward Hidegkuti who pulled the strings, and later Albert would succeed him as a goal-scoring schemer sublime.

The younger man, who scored 32 times in 75 internationals from 1959-74 and created countless chances for the likes of **, then later **, was a destructive attacking wanderer capable of dictating the tempo of play. His technique was exquisite, the accuracy of his passing was matched by its intelligence, he could shoot ferociously with either foot, he dribbled divinely and was a shrewd tactician.

His temperament was not perfect. There were days when, perhaps exasperated by the attentions of a close marker, he could appear moody, drifting on the fringe of the action. Then his deceptively languid gait could give the false impression that he didn't care – but when he dominated a contest, he offered unalloyed delight.

Albert, who lost his mother when he was two, then moved to Budapest, was outstanding from boyhood and was associated with Ferencvaros, the capital's most successful club, from the age of 11. He played for Hungary's junior team on his 16th birthday, made his senior debut for Ferencvaros a year later and earning his first full cap in a 3-2 victory over Sweden a week after completing his school exams in 1959.

Soon Albert became an irresistible force, helping to win the title in 1963, '64, '67 and '68 and the main domestic knock-out competition in 1972, and topping the national scoring charts in three seasons. In 1964-65 he shone as the Green Eagles beat Juventus in the final of the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup, having disposed of Manchester United over three games in a replayed semi-final.

Internationally, he was a colossal achiever, a central figure in Hungary's rebuilding after an exodus of leading players in the wake of the uprising of 1956. He collected a bronze medal at the Rome Olympics in 1960, and with four goals he was joint top scorer as the Magyars reached the World Cup quarter-finals in Chile in 1962. He touched his most opulent form when Hungary reached the last eight again in England in 1966, and he was influential as his country finished third in the European Nations Cup in 1964 and fourth in 1972.

Albert is best remembered in England for his sumptuous display in the 3-1 beating of champions Brazil in a group match at Everton in July 1966. On a sodden Merseyside afternoon, the tall, slim play-maker glittered, playing a part in all three goals, most unforgettably in the second, when he freed ** to set up ** for a savage volley. The local fans chanted "Albert, Albert" as he walked off at the end.

In recognition of his sustained splendour, he beat the holder, Bobby Charlton, to the Ballon d'Or of 1967, and remains Hungary's only winner. He retired in 1974 after scoring more than 250 goals in around 350 league games for Ferencvaros, and in 2007 the club named their stadium after him.
 
crappycraperson said:
I think that is being disingenuous. His point is that there is no proper documented proof of performances of pre 1960 players in the competition concerned. And most definitely people will be going by reputation, which in theory is against the spirit of this draft.
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It depends what you mean by proper documentation. There aren't full games on YouTube, obviously, but that goes with the territory.

What this comes down to is pretty plain, and it's the same song and dance every time a similar sort of debate surfaces: If we demand a certain standard of documentation (extensive footage as pertains to every relevant match/player, easily available sources, etc.) then it's impossible to incorporate anything before, say, 1970 in any draft.

We all know this – so my question is how productive it is to bring it up in a draft which includes (whether people like it or not) a certain generation of players in the pool.

We can debate whether such pools should be allowed – but that is a different debate. It doesn't belong in a draft where the pool has already been settled on.

In short, if people feel that players older than X should not feature in drafts – because they're bound to be hyped up with no evidence, etc. – then it makes no sense to participate in a draft like this. Wait for the next one, with no oldies.

Just my take on it – and no offence intended towards anyone.
 
harms said:
You take some random 6 games
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Stop being sensitive man. It's not a big deal, we're just talking/discussing.

Well they weren't random games, they were his peak years in terms of his performance at the CEIC and his career in general. I won't be using a non prime Kocsis in the draft, because that wouldn't make any sense. I wouldn't expect any other player to be judged over an 8 year period either.

What I said originally is that there weren't many games at the CEIC at Kocsis' peak. The peak years I put down were 1952-1954 which IMO is spot on, that's when he had the World Cup and the Olympic Games.

If you look at his record at club level I think that supports what I'm saying. In 1954 he scored an excellent 33 in 26, then in 1955 it went down to a still very good 17 in 21, then in 1956 it went down to just 13 in 21. Hence, Kocsis' last peak season was around 1954/55 in terms of both domestic and international football. So that's all I'm saying there.

In terms of the part about playing at his best in the CEIC, I stand by what I said in the sense that goal stats aren't even a little bit definitive - particularly for a complete forward like Kocsis. You would need to have watched the games to make a judgement like that. From 1950-1955 Kocsis was consistently playing at a world class level against every calibre of opposition. He still managed to have a very good scoring run of 4 goals in 6 games and IMO I've seen or read nothing to suggest that he wasn't at his usual level in those CEIC games.

It's fair to say he wasnt quite as good as in the World Cup though, which really was an unbelievable run of goalscoring even for Kocsis.
 
its really difficult to properly rate this oldies from international cup. Like someone said, with defenders and strikers you can kind of assess certain players even tough even that isnt perfect but at least you can see something. With midfielders its practically imposibble, i found a few that look good on paper but at the end i will not pick then as i didnt find any footage.
Was very happy with Hidegkuti because after heavy research i found few clips from IC and full friendly against england so was able to see how the guy plays.
 
Šjor Bepo said:
its really difficult to properly rate this oldies from international cup. Like someone said, with defenders and strikers you can kind of assess certain players even tough even that isnt perfect but at least you can see something. With midfielders its practically imposibble, i found a few that look good on paper but at the end i will not pick then as i didnt find any footage.
Was very happy with Hidegkuti because after heavy research i found few clips from IC and full friendly against england so was able to see how the guy plays.
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On the flip side you could easily argue that watching a highlight reel of Player X doesn't say all that much about him either – without context. Imagine seeing a YouTube propaganda clip of Ando – all grainy and in black/white, and you'd conclude he must be a grand player.

Point being – there's a totality to be considered with every player. And for older players part of that totality has to be what older writers – reporters, team mates, managers, etc. - had to say about them, what sort of player they were, their strengths, their weaknesses, all the things which can be gleaned from reading about the player in different written sources. Combine that with available footage, stats, and common sense – and you get a pretty decent picture as far as most relevant players are concerned (nobody here is going to pick a player so obscure that nobody bothered to say much about him in his own day).
 
Laudrup didn't look too bad at his first Euro's when assisting in a couple of the goals in his sides crucial win to advance to the semi finals.

 
Chesterlestreet said:
On the flip side you could easily argue that watching a highlight reel of Player X doesn't say all that much about him either – without context. Imagine seeing a YouTube propaganda clip of Ando – all grainy and in black/white, and you'd conclude he must be a grand player.

Point being – there's a totality to be considered with every player. And for older players part of that totality has to be what older writers – reporters, team mates, managers, etc. - had to say about them, what sort of player they were, their strengths, their weaknesses, all the things which can be gleaned from reading about the player in different written sources. Combine that with available footage, stats, and common sense – and you get a pretty decent picture as far as most relevant players are concerned (nobody here is going to pick a player so obscure that nobody bothered to say much about him in his own day).
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i agree with you, thats why we in the newbies always played with players you can watch in full games but after this experience i must say i was wrong specially because i play this mainly because of this part of the game, building teams and researching. Actual games are necessary evil :D
 
Heading to Disneyland with the family. Probably gone until Tuesday. I'm gonna try and check in when I can, but it's horrible service there on my phone. I'm gonna try and keep Pat updated on players so he can make picks when he gets the chance.

I'll check in when I can, and try to keep track of who's gone and keep pat updated. I'll try not to let my whole 8 hours pass by and keep you guys waiting, but he can make picks on my behalf...just so there's no confusion.
 
ctp said:
I've been sitting here since I'd made my last pick, hoping nobody would go for him. Amazingly, it worked out. I pick marauding right back, Eric Gerets.

belgium-eric-gerets-233-orbis-1990-world-cup-collectable-sticker-49127-p.jpg
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Lucky you. We nearly picked him. Him and Breitner to complete the fullback pairs were our choices for the pick, but in the end we decided Deschamps was more important to the team. He deserves a final appearance probably with me ;-/
 
1. crappycraperson - 1. Platini 2. Figo 3. Tigana 4. Tardelli 5. Krol
2. Edgar Allan Pillow & MJJ & coolredwine - 1. Puskás 2. Masopust 3. Gullit 4. Breitner 5. Deschamps
3. Paolo Di Canio - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Blanc 3. Lev Yashin 4. van Nistelrooy 5. Gentile
4. The Stain - 1. Zidane 2. Czibor 3. Amancio 4. Förster 5. Zagorakis
5. Skizzo & Pat_Mustard - 1. van Basten 2. Netzer 3. Monti 4. Popluhár 5. Bonhof
6. Stobzilla - 1. Beckenbauer 2. B.Charlton 3. Bican 4. Gascoigne 5. Brian Laudrup
7. Joga Bonito - 1. Maldini 2. B.Moore 3. Sindelar 4. Bergomi 5. Effenberg
8. harms - 1. Dragan Džajić 2. Sárosi 3. Schuster 4. Voronin 5. Brehme
9. Aldo - 1. Xavi 2. Iniesta 3. Nedved 4. Lahm 5. Albert
10. Raees & Gio - 1. Rijkaard 2. Facchetti 3. Kohler 4. Henry 5. Zebec
11. Theon & NM - 1. Matthäus 2. Bozsik 3. Davids 4. Desailly 5. Sándor Kocsis
12. The Red Viper - 1. Gerd Müller 2. Sammer 3. Vieira 4. Shesternyov 5. Cannavaro
13. big red123 - 1. Cruyff 2. Baresi 3. Stoichkov 4. Michael Laudrup 5. Koeman
14. Šjor Bepo & Physiocrat - 1. Luis Suarez 2. Nesta 3. Hidegkuti 4. Ivanov 5. Giresse
15. ctp - 1. Rummenigge 2. Scirea 3. Ocwirk 4. Mazzola 5. Gerets
16. PedroMendez - 1. Meazza 2. Thuram 3. Schmeichel 4. Netto 5. Bene 6. A.A. Varela
 
so i go with Schwarzenbeck. :wenger: almost the same. I really shouldnt do that at night. :wenger:

1. crappycraperson - 1. Platini 2. Figo 3. Tigana 4. Tardelli 5. Krol
2. Edgar Allan Pillow & MJJ & coolredwine - 1. Puskás 2. Masopust 3. Gullit 4. Breitner 5. Deschamps
3. Paolo Di Canio - 1. Cristiano Ronaldo 2. Blanc 3. Lev Yashin 4. van Nistelrooy 5. Gentile
4. The Stain - 1. Zidane 2. Czibor 3. Amancio 4. Förster 5. Zagorakis
5. Skizzo & Pat_Mustard - 1. van Basten 2. Netzer 3. Monti 4. Popluhár 5. Bonhof
6. Stobzilla - 1. Beckenbauer 2. B.Charlton 3. Bican 4. Gascoigne 5. Brian Laudrup
7. Joga Bonito - 1. Maldini 2. B.Moore 3. Sindelar 4. Bergomi 5. Effenberg
8. harms - 1. Dragan Džajić 2. Sárosi 3. Schuster 4. Voronin 5. Brehme
9. Aldo - 1. Xavi 2. Iniesta 3. Nedved 4. Lahm 5. Albert
10. Raees & Gio - 1. Rijkaard 2. Facchetti 3. Kohler 4. Henry 5. Zebec
11. Theon & NM - 1. Matthäus 2. Bozsik 3. Davids 4. Desailly 5. Sándor Kocsis
12. The Red Viper - 1. Gerd Müller 2. Sammer 3. Vieira 4. Shesternyov 5. Cannavaro
13. big red123 - 1. Cruyff 2. Baresi 3. Stoichkov 4. Michael Laudrup 5. Koeman
14. Šjor Bepo & Physiocrat - 1. Luis Suarez 2. Nesta 3. Hidegkuti 4. Ivanov 5. Giresse
15. ctp - 1. Rummenigge 2. Scirea 3. Ocwirk 4. Mazzola 5. Gerets
16. PedroMendez - 1. Meazza 2. Thuram 3. Schmeichel 4. Netto 5. Bene 6. Schwarzenbeck

@ctp
 
Chesterlestreet said:
It depends what you mean by proper documentation. There aren't full games on YouTube, obviously, but that goes with the territory.

What this comes down to is pretty plain, and it's the same song and dance every time a similar sort of debate surfaces: If we demand a certain standard of documentation (extensive footage as pertains to every relevant match/player, easily available sources, etc.) then it's impossible to incorporate anything before, say, 1970 in any draft.

We all know this – so my question is how productive it is to bring it up in a draft which includes (whether people like it or not) a certain generation of players in the pool.

We can debate whether such pools should be allowed – but that is a different debate. It doesn't belong in a draft where the pool has already been settled on.

In short, if people feel that players older than X should not feature in drafts – because they're bound to be hyped up with no evidence, etc. – then it makes no sense to participate in a draft like this. Wait for the next one, with no oldies.

Just my take on it – and no offence intended towards anyone.
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You are touching on how generally players from earlier eras are rated. Problem here is the extra dimension added to it regarding the performances in the tournament. There is possible way I can see here to distinguish between the two so old players will mostly get a pass when it comes to this constraint.
 
And my second fullback is Bixente Lizarazu. This has all worked out very nicely. :)

22615-zoom.jpg
 
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