The Title Race 2017/18 | Done and dusted.

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Yes it is. Because Utd have shown improvement while Spurs have shown themselves to stand still. Why should Utd's improvement just stop? You're using the first 8 games to show the probability of what Spurs will achieve but not doing the same for Utd. It's no great surprise.

On the contrary, I've used the first 8 games for both teams in comparison the same/equivalent fixtures last season. And nor have I talked about "probability" - it's just a projection at this stage of the season and obviously will change as the season wears on.

You ask "why should Utd's improvement just stop?" But I haven't said that it will stop (it might, it might not), just as Spurs standing still so far can change for better or worse.
 
On the contrary, I've used the first 8 games for both teams in comparison the same/equivalent fixtures last season. And nor have I talked about "probability" - it's just a projection at this stage of the season and obviously will change as the season wears on.

You ask "why should Utd's improvement just stop?" But I haven't said that it will stop (it might, it might not), just as Spurs standing still so far can change for better or worse.
Of course you're talking about probability. You're extrapolating from what's happened so far to predict what will happen come season's end but ignored evidentiary improvement. It's interesting that you have previously used trends to show how Utd will get worse but won't for how this season has begun.
 
What the point that you're making?
That you quite clearly know that how a team is currently performing will impact on how they will continue to play. Utd were playing worse than they were the season before and there was a downward trend that was likely to see their points drop. You seem to now be ignoring the upward trend. What you are talking about is a mathematical equation yet you aren't applying the correct rules to it because to do so would not suit your agenda.

Not that I agree with using maths to predict how the season will pan out but you do it continually.
 
Of course you're talking about probability. You're extrapolating from what's happened so far to predict what will happen come season's end but ignored evidentiary improvement. It's interesting that you have previously used trends to show how Utd will get worse but won't for how this season has begun.

No, I am not predicting. I've simply given a projection of what would happen with points totals IF the current comparisons with the same/equivalent fixtures from last season remained unchanged for the rest of the season. So IF United remained 6 points better off you'd finish on 75 points and IF Spurs remained no better or worse off, then we'd finish on 86 points.

But of course this projection won't remain unchanged for the rest of the season. And nor have I said that United won't continue to improve.

The current projection simply shows that United will have to continue to improve - or to hope that Spurs decline - if you want to finish above us in the table, because the current 6 points improvement wouldn't be enough.
 
No, I am not predicting. I've simply given a projection of what would happen with points totals IF the current comparisons with the same/equivalent fixtures from last season remained unchanged for the rest of the season. So IF United remained 6 points better off you'd finish on 75 points and IF Spurs remained no better or worse off, then we'd finish on 86 points.

But of course this projection won't remain unchanged for the rest of the season. And nor have I said that United won't continue to improve.

The current projection simply shows that United will have to continue to improve - or to hope that Spurs decline - if you want to finish above us in the table, because the current 6 points improvement wouldn't be enough.
Do you know what the word projection means? This could be why you're having such a tough time understanding the point I've made. You've actually further proven my point. Thanks.

Utd don't also need to continue to improve. They need only maintain the improvement already made. That means Spurs need to improve.
 
That you quite clearly know that how a team is currently performing will impact on how they will continue to play. Utd were playing worse than they were the season before and there was a downward trend that was likely to see their points drop. You seem to now be ignoring the upward trend. What you are talking about is a mathematical equation yet you aren't applying the correct rules to it because to do so would not suit your agenda.

Not that I agree with using maths to predict how the season will pan out but you do it continually.

Look, I've simply given some points totals in comparison so far with the same/equivalent fixtures last season and projected forward what that would mean IF those point-totals remained unchanged for the rest of the season. The virtue of such a projection is that it at least takes some account of the easiness or difficulty of the fixture list thus far.

I haven't said the projection won't change. If you believe that it will change in United's favour, based on performances so far this season, then fair enough, that might well happen ... but also it might not.
 
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Do you know what the word projection means? This could be why you're having such a tough time understanding the point I've made. You've actually further proven my point. Thanks.

Utd don't also need to continue to improve. They need only maintain the improvement already made. That means Spurs need to improve.

Wrong. United need to continue to improve on the points gained in comparison to the same/equivalent fixtures from last season. If you don't, you'll finish on 75 points at best. This is the key point from the current projection. It's not a matter of debate.
 
I can predict one thing pretty confidently. We won't get 95 points.

We have improved for sure but the fixtures have been kind. What we likely need to win the title, tbh, is injury crises at City and Spurs.

I think Everton have a real problem and I am not sure they will even end up 7th.
 
Wrong. United need to continue to improve on the points gained in comparison to the same/equivalent fixtures from last season. If you don't, you'll finish on 75 points at best. This is the key point from the current projection. It's not a matter of debate.

Yup, and the bookies/punters have seen them blowing the lesser teams away at home (their main Achilles heel last season), and have them as second favourites on the back of this.

Not difficult to understand.
 
Wrong. United need to continue to improve on the points gained in comparison to the same/equivalent fixtures from last season. If you don't, you'll finish on 75 points at best. This is the key point from the current projection. It's not a matter of debate.
The improvement was made in the summer. You need to learn what the word projection means. That is not a matter of debate.
 
I can predict one thing pretty confidently. We won't get 95 points.

We have improved for sure but the fixtures have been kind. What we likely need to win the title, tbh, is injury crises at City and Spurs.

No team will get 95 points even the mighty City. The winner will be about about 88-90 points imo. These 93-95 winners are always exceptional winners in exceptional seasons.

I don't understand the fixtures being kind, though. City also won't play a single top team in October and November except Arsenal. It happens.
 
I can predict one thing pretty confidently. We won't get 95 points.

We have improved for sure but the fixtures have been kind. What we likely need to win the title, tbh, is injury crises at City and Spurs.

I think Everton have a real problem and I am not sure they will even end up 7th.
I can predict that too but Glaston needs to follow the rules of his projection which isn't a prediction somehow.
 
The improvement was made in the summer. You need to learn what the word projection means. That is not a matter of debate.

I'm afraid that would be you. It's simply a matter of mathematical fact, that if United don't continue to improve on your points gained in comparison with the same/equivalent fixtures from last season, then you'll finish on 75 points at best.

No amount of talk about improvement "made in the summer" will change this.
 
I can predict that too but Glaston needs to follow the rules of his projection which isn't a prediction somehow.

Just give him the solid "ignore" and move on imo. I did it earlier and it was a great decision.
 
No team will get 95 points even the mighty City. The winner will be about about 88-90 points imo. These 93-95 winners are always exceptional winners in exceptional seasons.

I don't understand the fixtures being kind, though. City also won't play a single top team in October and November except Arsenal. It happens.

Yes City have had fairly easy games too, the point being it is not really possible to start ruling teams in or out of the race at this stage. But I expected us to start well based on the fixtures. If we had won convincingly yesterday it would have added a lot more weight to the theory that we can win the league but as it stands I am not sure.
 
I'm afraid that would be you. It's simply a matter of mathematical fact, that if United don't continue to improve on your points gained in comparison with the same/equivalent fixtures from last season, then you'll finish on 75 points at best.

No amount of talk about improvement "made in the summer" will change this.
I know what it means thanks. I'm not the one saying I'm not making predictions, I'm making projections. I could post the definition to clarify how stupid that is if you like? If a team signs a whole new squad in the summer and they win their first 8 games they don't need to continue to improve because the necessary improvements have already been made. They merely need to continue playing at the level they have already achieved. If Utd maintain their current form they will improve on last season. Not likely to a 95 point total but I'm simply applying the rules that are established by your projection.
 
We cannot win the title without Pogba.
Even with him we'll struggle but he's definitely the key for us. I always fancied City for the title this year just due to their firepower. If they get an early goal in games I think we'll quite a few games like yesterday's.
 
Yes City have had fairly easy games too, the point being it is not really possible to start ruling teams in or out of the race at this stage. But I expected us to start well based on the fixtures. If we had won convincingly yesterday it would have added a lot more weight to the theory that we can win the league but as it stands I am not sure.

It's early to predict. I won't give a solid opinion about us winning the league or not till the end of Boxing day fixtures. If we were close to City by then we'll have a chance and not a small one. I'm pretty sure we'll challenge, though, no matter what.
 
I can predict that too but Glaston needs to follow the rules of his projection which isn't a prediction somehow.

A projection (in this context) is a mathematical projection based on a particular model of comparison, assuming that the current figures used by the model to project forward don't change.

A prediction by a poster as to what will actually happen is something entirely different and may draw on many things outside the model.

To pretend that they are the same thing is just to play dumb.
 
Injuries have hampered us as have the bleeping international breaks (the the injuries gotten over these bleeping breaks). You need a bit of luck and we can look at things from many perspectives. In terms of finishing for a CL place then we've started well. We just need to tidy up and keep going. In terms of challenging for the league - you need lots of luck. City have a sugar daddy - not much we can do. We need to just get back to winning. If we can find our early season form again then with Pogba and Zlatan coming back into the team, we'll be alright. We DO need to improve away from home. Drawing to Liverpool away isn't the end of the world and we could have lost it. The games we have to avoid are the stoke games where we had it won and then messed up. Defensively, we need to improve - especially if the goals dry up. You hear that Jones and Smalling? ...:)
 
A projection (in this context) is a mathematical projection based on a particular model of comparison, assuming that the current figures used by the model to project forward don't change.

A prediction by a poster as to what will actually happen is something entirely different and may draw on many things outside the model.

To pretend that they are the same thing is just to play dumb.
This is the definition.

an estimate or forecast of a future situation based on a study of present trends.

Present trends are Utd have improved. Emphasis on present there. A projection, your choice of words, has Utd on 95 points as it is based on the present trend which is a 6 point improvement over 8 games.

A prediction is literally a forecast. I'm applying your rules here. It isn't my fault you don't understand them.
 
I know what it means thanks. I'm not the one saying I'm not making predictions, I'm making projections. I could post the definition to clarify how stupid that is if you like? If a team signs a whole new squad in the summer and they win their first 8 games they don't need to continue to improve because the necessary improvements have already been made. They merely need to continue playing at the level they have already achieved. If Utd maintain their current form they will improve on last season. Not likely to a 95 point total but I'm simply applying the rules that are established by your projection.

Clearly you don't. Just as you don't grasp the different between a projection from a mathematical model and a personal prediction that draws on many other factors. And because you don't like figures in the projection, you go off your stupid tangent.

As for "If a team signs a whole new squad in the summer and they win their first 8 games they don't need to continue to improve because the necessary improvements have already been made" ... that's bollocks.

First of all United have not won their first 8 games. Secondly, your notion takes no account of the fixture list. And thirdly, teams can go off the boil, or suffer lots of injuries, or just have plain old bad luck in many ways.

Finally, you are not applying the rules of the projection I gave. You are applying the rules of a different projection - one that assumes that the rate of gain in points will continue to some degree for the rest of the season. That's fine, but again it takes less account of fixture difficulty.
 
Too early to talk about the title race. December will make it clear who is in the title race and who isn't.
 
Clearly you don't. Just as you don't grasp the different between a projection from a mathematical model and a personal prediction that draws on many other factors. And because you don't like figures in the projection, you go off your stupid tangent.

As for "If a team signs a whole new squad in the summer and they win their first 8 games they don't need to continue to improve because the necessary improvements have already been made" ... that's bollocks.

First of all United have not won their first 8 games. Secondly, your notion takes no account of the fixture list. And thirdly, teams can go off the boil, or suffer lots of injuries, or just have plain old bad luck in many ways.

Finally, you are not applying the rules of the projection I gave. You are applying the rules of a different projection - one that assumes that the rate of gain in points will continue to some degree for the rest of the season. That's fine, but again it takes less account of fixture difficulty.
I can't argue with a person who uses their own definition of what a projection is. It's you who doesn't like the figures in a projection that literally has to use present trends. It's all there in black and white and anyone who isn't a moron can see that.
 
First of all United have not won their first 8 games. Secondly, your notion takes no account of the fixture list. And thirdly, teams can go off the boil, or suffer lots of injuries, or just have plain old bad luck in many ways.
Where does your projection (not a prediction) take these factors into account? Where does your projection factor in squad improvements or improved form of individuals?
 
This is the definition.

an estimate or forecast of a future situation based on a study of present trends.

Present trends are Utd have improved. Emphasis on present there. A projection, your choice of words, has Utd on 95 points as it is based on the present trend which is a 6 point improvement over 8 games.

A prediction is literally a forecast. I'm applying your rules here. It isn't my fault you don't understand them.

I can't be bothered playing your fecking stupid semantic games ... all just to cover the fact that you don't like the current implications of the points-per-comparative-fixture model.

The comparison model currently projects that United will finish on 75 points. If you want to use a different model to project that United will finish on 95 points then knock yourself out.

Neither model is what I would solely base my own prediction on. A model forecast is not a personal prediction - got it? Or do you want feck around with your stupid games some more?
 
I can't be bothered playing your fecking stupid semantic games ... all just to cover the fact that you don't like the current implications of the points-per-comparative-fixture model.

The comparison model currently projects that United will finish on 75 points. If you want to use a different model to project that United will finish on 95 points then knock yourself out.

Neither model is what I would solely base my own prediction on. A model forecast is not a personal prediction - got it? Or do you want feck around with your stupid games some more?
Again, it's you who doesn't like it. I prefer to watch football matches to see improvements than to think that beating Huddersfield when you drew with Sunderland last season means you're on course to finish with the same points. You introduced the baffling concept that a projection isn't a prediction and you're the one that ignores how a projection actually works.

The comparison model you are trying to use doesn't work because you are not applying tangible factors to it. What are you using is a strictly mathematical equation that you are not applying the correct rules to. All that needs said has been said. You think a projection isn't a prediction. Which is hilarious.
 
Where does your projection (not a prediction) take these factors into account? Where does your projection factor in squad improvements or improved form of individuals?

It doesn't. It's not designed to do that and no model can be. It's just a model with a projection that changes over time depending on actual match results. Do you get it now, or do you want to continue trying to make it into something else just because you don't like what it currently projects?
 
It doesn't. It's not designed to do that and no model can be. It's just a model with a projection that changes over time depending on actual match results. Do you get it now, or do you want to continue trying to make it into something else just because you don't like what it currently projects?
You are ignoring what a projection actually is and the rules that are established in projections. The present trend. The present trend being Utd's improvement and Spurs' stagnation. Regardless, the thread is about the title race which I believe neither Spurs nor Utd will win.
 
Both City and United have had fairly easy starts. The average position that City has faced is 13 so far, whereas we've faced 14.5. The positions of the team we've faced so far, not in any particular order
Man City- 19,17,16,8,4,5,20,15 =13
Man Utd- 13,14,18,15,17,19,12,8=14.5

Here are the stats, so far. Obviously it could change a lot right now as Everton/Brighton are playing and Saints/Newcastle will play tonight.
 
Again, it's you who doesn't like it. I prefer to watch football matches to see improvements than to think that beating Huddersfield when you drew with Sunderland last season means you're on course to finish with the same points. You introduced the baffling concept that a projection isn't a prediction and you're the one that ignores how a projection actually works.

The comparison model you are trying to use doesn't work because you are not applying tangible factors to it. What are you using is a strictly mathematical equation that you are not applying the correct rules to. All that needs said has been said. You think a projection isn't a prediction. Which is hilarious.

Why wouldn't I like a model that currently projects Spurs to finish on 86 points again? I'd happily settle for that.

You are really are pathetic in trying to suggest that because the model currently projects forward 86 points for Spurs, I'm therefore predicting that Spurs will finish on 86 points. I'm not. I've predicted that Spurs will finish in the top 4 and beyond that I have no further prediction at this stage ... not after just 8 games.

It's also pathetic to try and suggest that I don't take into account performances on the pitch.

What's actually hilarious is that you think that citing a particular model's projection is the same thing as a personal prediction :lol:

I'd be quite happy to cite the projections of other models ... would that make them all my own personal predictions :lol:
 
Your figure of 95 points for United is based merely on projecting your current average points-per-game across the rest of the season, but that's far less realistic than actually taking the fixture list into account and looking at results compared to the same/equivalent fixtures last season.

If you do the latter it turns out that United are currently on track to get 75 points (6 points more so far than last season) and Spurs 86 points (the same points so far as last season) ... and this is also why talking about the start of December has little relevance.

Of course there are a variety of points/league place projection systems - including the par-scores system as discussed in https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the...a-the-peterstorey-table.432884/#post-21600251 - but looking at the current points-per-game-average after just 8 games is one of the least realistic.

Bookies odds reflect in part the amounts of money bet. So if I weighed in today with a £100m bet on Spurs the odds for them would tumble.

So you think United are pretty much the same as last season? If you do you haven't been watching much of them.
Bookies odds of course are based on money but what you are trying to say is that my opinion on United being clear 2nd favorites is wrong but the bookies and therefor the majority of the people reckon United are clearly stronger and expected to do better than Spurs.

That of course is not a knock on Spurs, your squad cost roughly 1/7th of that of United or City but it is the reality for you guys. You are 3rd favorites and well behind United and City in the pecking order. It's not the end of the world.
 
Why wouldn't I like a model that currently projects Spurs to finish on 86 points again? I'd happily settle for that.

You are really are pathetic in trying to suggest that because the model currently projects forward 86 points for Spurs, I'm therefore predicting that Spurs will finish on 86 points. I'm not. I've predicted that Spurs will finish in the top 4 and beyond that I have no further prediction at this stage ... not after just 8 games.

It's also pathetic to try and suggest that I don't take into account performances on the pitch.

What's actually hilarious is that you think that citing a particular model's projection is the same thing as a personal prediction :lol:

I'd be quite happy to cite the projections of other models ... would that make them all my own personal predictions :lol:
Learn what a projection is. Good day.
 
I can't be bothered playing your fecking stupid semantic games ... all just to cover the fact that you don't like the current implications of the points-per-comparative-fixture model.

The comparison model currently projects that United will finish on 75 points. If you want to use a different model to project that United will finish on 95 points then knock yourself out.

Neither model is what I would solely base my own prediction on. A model forecast is not a personal prediction - got it? Or do you want feck around with your stupid games some more?

The comparison model is a load of shite. Are you saying that teams are going to get EXACTLY the same results against EXACTLY the same teams? The odds of that are astronomical. You also have to add in the fact 3 of those teams are gone and their are 3 new teams in the league? Thats not even possible and your logic is flawed, it is easily a far more unreliable method than any other. What have Brighton, Newcastle and Hudderfield in common with Sunderland, Boro and Hull. Managers have changed, squads have changed nothing is the same. It's absolutely ridiculous to use anything bar current form to predict.

For all you say of United's easy fixtures they have faced 1 of the top 6. Liverpool and are still unbeaten. Spurs have faced one of the top 6 to and were beaten. City have played 2 of the top 6 and won both.

Also how exactly have United's fixtures been easier than yours?
Taking a comparison of last seasons finishing positions (seeing as you are so fond of them) into account:

Cities average opponent this season so far has a finishing position of: 9.5
Uniteds average opponent this season so far has a finishing position of: 10.5
Spurs average opponent this season so far has a finishing position of 12th.

Spurs have had the easier fixtures in comparison to United and City, so stop on about fixture lists...
 
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