The successor to David de Gea

[Cloud7]

It's cool because the last time we needed a GK successor to VDS, I didn't know anything about any of the options except for seeing Stekelenburg at the world cup, so when we got De Gea he was a complete unknown to me, and this time around I don't know anything about any of the names in here so this will also come as a complete surprise to me, whoever we sign.

 

[Idxomer]

Maignan or Sanchez, I liked what I saw from Meslier a couple of years ago but he doesn't seem to have progressed much.

Raya is short and looks small in goal, not that great on crosses either which should be a requirement in the next goalkeeper.

 

[largelyworried]

So even if we ignore the fact he's absymal with the ball at his feet, particularly under any kind of pressure, then the fact that he's literally the worst goalkeeper in the league at leaving his line for both crosses and to sweep behind defenders isn't a good enough reason given Ten Hag wants us to play a high line then? What about the fact we had to abandon how Ten Hag wanted to play after two games because De Gea cost us 5 goals in those two games? Or the fact that his one supposedly redeeming quality is his shot stopping, which other than a 4 month purple patch between August & December of 2021, has also been below par for over 4 years?

We shouldn't get rid because of his contract, we should get rid because he's fecking dreadful.

Its actually insane to me that people still think De Gea is a good keeper. Its like having a striker who can't link up play, can't hold up the ball, can't win owt in the air, and does nothing but score goals from 6 yards out - except they're only bagging 10 goals a season. No-one would seriously argue keeping such a player, and yet with De Gea, for some reason people are happy with such a limited player.

 

[DWelbz19]

Said it in another thread I reckon it'll be Meslier too especially if we do indeed trigger De Gea's extra year and we're stuck with him till 2024
Laurie Whitwell and David McDonnell also mentioned Meslier as the earmarked long term De Gea replacement

He's a long term De Gea replacement, alright. Looks soft as shite too.

 

[RkkMan]

He's a long term De Gea replacement, alright. Looks soft as shite too.

Yeah I'm just saying what's out in the open BTW he wouldn't be my pick ahead of Maignan, Robert Sanchez or Diogo Costa

 

[mu4c_20le]

couldnt agree more, the futures incredibly bright for ireland in the goalkeeping area, between him (20), kelleher and travers (both 23)
and yet he won his place over them despite been 3 years younger and been immense ever since

kids excellent with the ball at his feet too, massive prospect

Bazunu all day long for me. Has the personality and balls for it, excellent with his feet and distribution, strong on crosses and sweeps proactively behind a high line. Plus he's a decent shot stopper as well.

He could be our No1 for the next 15 years.

Seems bloody obvious that City will bring him back in 2-3 years to replace the aging Ederson. It wont be easy or straightforward, but we can try to gazump them by offering big money and a guaranteed spot next year. If not, I'd be happy with Sanchez as that seems a much easier deal.

 

[diarm]

Seems bloody obvious that City will bring him back in 2-3 years to replace the aging Ederson. It wont be easy or straightforward, but we can try to gazump them by offering big money and a guaranteed spot next year. If not, I'd be happy with Sanchez as that seems a much easier deal.

They do have a buy back clause as well, but it's Bazunu himself they'd have to convince. Ederson is still only 29 so has plenty of years left in him - the kid woukd have to decide between being first choice at United, or second fiddle at City for another 5 years.

 

[Member 105568]

Bazunu is excellent, but I think City have a buy-back which I think there’s a good chance they’ll want to use. That means offering a lot more than the buy-back before it kicks in. Soton could ask for silly money on that.

 

[Legendary]

Robert Sanchez would be my top pick, he is a young (24), very skilful, modern style keeper, plus he's huge at 1.97m (6ft6), and accustomed to playing in the Premier League already.

 

[jesperjaap]

So even if we ignore the fact he's absymal with the ball at his feet, particularly under any kind of pressure, then the fact that he's literally the worst goalkeeper in the league at leaving his line for both crosses and to sweep behind defenders isn't a good enough reason given Ten Hag wants us to play a high line then? What about the fact we had to abandon how Ten Hag wanted to play after two games because De Gea cost us 5 goals in those two games? Or the fact that his one supposedly redeeming quality is his shot stopping, which other than a 4 month purple patch between August & December of 2021, has also been below par for over 4 years?

We shouldn't get rid because of his contract, we should get rid because he's fecking dreadful.

Although think you are being overly critical in certain areas not disagreeing totally.

Yes it is evident from the seasons games that to really play the way Ten Hag wants to, somebody more comfortable with the ball at there feet is needed.

What I am sayign though and why I agreed with the person writign careful what you wish for, where I taotally diagree, he is still a very good keeper at shot stopping and 4years? Come on? He had a really bad 18months and in all honesty hasnt had a good start to this season, outside of that he has been one of the very few reliable players the last decade.

He isnt VDS or Schmeichel but he has been far better than any of the other keepers between Shmeichel and now.....what I am saying is none of these names being mentioned install confidence as a new long term number one, most of them are pretty average keepers in terms of shot stopping and one on ones, all very well distributing the ball out but if they are not of the quqality to make huge saves in games, do they really improve us?

 

[jesperjaap]

"Not great with his feet" is an understatement. He is bad enough with his feet that it precludes us from playing out from the back unless the opponent does not press with a single forward. Otherwise he kicks the ball long and we lose possession on half of those kicks.

Simply having a keeper who can kick the ball over pressing forwards to slightly advanced fullbacks means that opponents are forced to commit all of their players further up the pitch, otherwise they are exposed to long kicks. As it stands now opponents can just press us with a few forwards and clog the midfield as well, which means less possession for us.

Dont disagree, its evident already this season.....just think solely naming players good with there feet isnt the answer, we still need a quality shot stopper abd someone with either the experience or stature and belief to be a number one here, just opinion but I am not sure I see it with some of these names, Meuslier or whatever he is called at Leeds, is one I really dont get the hype on whatsoever, average keeper and only above avefage with his feet. The Nrighton keeper looks a decent keeper and good with his feet and is that enough? I do quite like the Wolves keeper in terms of premiership ones but still not convinced yet and abr the Belgium one moving to Leipzig in a couple of years, haventyet seen young keeper or one makign a na,e for themselves where I would say "yes, he is a great signing"...that the problem, DeGea is still a good keeper but doesnt progress us under the new manager, the opposite, I agree, but his conract is ending and there isnt an obvious answer to replace him....or even AN answer I feel at the moment

 

[Luffy]

Van der Sar as interim keeper till we find a permanent option, after which we move him upstairs to be our new DOF.

 

[Ballache]

Bazunu is excellent, but I think City have a buy-back which I think there’s a good chance they’ll want to use. That means offering a lot more than the buy-back before it kicks in. Soton could ask for silly money on that.

He can still reject City, he's under no obligation to go back.

 

[avgp_1]

I believe Nubels agent said if Bayern extend Neuers contract than Nubel would be looking for an exit. He is a very good keeper and he has some good size to him too. Only thing is he is quite inexperienced for a 25 year old. I think he has about 80 professional games under his belt only, however that’s happened with other keepers, Emiliano Martinez was the same when he was backup at Arsenal until he got regular football.

Nubel or Lafont would be exciting options, cheaper than buying from a PL club too.

Yeah his lack of experience should'nt worry us. He looks the part right now. But agreed its all on Bayern right now if they are ready to move on Neuer

 

[largelyworried]

Although think you are being overly critical in certain areas not disagreeing totally.

Yes it is evident from the seasons games that to really play the way Ten Hag wants to, somebody more comfortable with the ball at there feet is needed.

What I am sayign though and why I agreed with the person writign careful what you wish for, where I taotally diagree, he is still a very good keeper at shot stopping and 4years? Come on? He had a really bad 18months and in all honesty hasnt had a good start to this season, outside of that he has been one of the very few reliable players the last decade.

He isnt VDS or Schmeichel but he has been far better than any of the other keepers between Shmeichel and now.....what I am saying is none of these names being mentioned install confidence as a new long term number one, most of them are pretty average keepers in terms of shot stopping and one on ones, all very well distributing the ball out but if they are not of the quqality to make huge saves in games, do they really improve us?

De Gea ranked 2nd among goalkeepers in the league last season for shot stopping, which was good. But in the 3 seasons before that he ranked 15th, 10th and 8th, which was not. We need to shake this false idea that he's an excellent shot stopper, it really gets in the way of any debate about him.

 

[JB7]

Although think you are being overly critical in certain areas not disagreeing totally.

Yes it is evident from the seasons games that to really play the way Ten Hag wants to, somebody more comfortable with the ball at there feet is needed.

What I am sayign though and why I agreed with the person writign careful what you wish for, where I taotally diagree, he is still a very good keeper at shot stopping and 4years? Come on? He had a really bad 18months and in all honesty hasnt had a good start to this season, outside of that he has been one of the very few reliable players the last decade.

He isnt VDS or Schmeichel but he has been far better than any of the other keepers between Shmeichel and now.....what I am saying is none of these names being mentioned install confidence as a new long term number one, most of them are pretty average keepers in terms of shot stopping and one on ones, all very well distributing the ball out but if they are not of the quqality to make huge saves in games, do they really improve us?

Yes four years. His shot stopping statistics are incredibly average over the past four years for a goalkeeper who's only positive is that he's supposed to be a world class shot stopper. His PSxG over the past five years are as follows:
21/22: +6.7 (worth noting he was +11 or so at the end of December so his drop off in 2022 was rather astonishing, roughly -4 vs an average goalkeeper).
20/21: +0.1.
19/20: +2.1
18/19: +0.1
17/18: +8.5

So if you consider 0 to be the benchmark for an average goalkeeper in PSxG, he was slightly above average in 19/20, bang on average in 18/19 and 20/21, way above average in the first half of 21/22 and way below average in the second half of 21/22.

So the reality is that his shot stopping, which was his only redeeming quality given he offers nothing whatsoever in terms of shot prevention, has been pretty average for 3 1/2 of the last 4 years. And when you factor in the shot prevention you'd expect from an average Premier League goalkeeper (people seem to think this is a modern goalkeeper thing, it isn't) , which I did the maths on last season and the average goalkeeper in the Premier League was I think two or three times more likely to sweep behind the defenders and three times as likely to deal with a cross into the box, means he is not even a goalkeeper that is anywhere near the required standard for a club expecting to finish mid-table, let alone towards the top of the table.

The reality is we would be improved by a goalkeeper who is average across the board, you only have to look at our record with Henderson in goal to see that, or even Romero before him. De Gea has to make so many supposedly excellent saves because he offers nothing whatsoever to prevent those opportunities in the first instance, or he gives the ball away leading to the opportunity. Yes, you might end up with a goalkeeper that doesn't pull out a worldie of a save two or three times a season, but if they are twice as likely to deal with a cross into the box or three times as likely to deal with a ball in behind the defence, it would result in comfortably less opportunities for the opposition to score overall and would therefore be a certainty to be a net gain overall.

 

[Grande]

So even if we ignore the fact he's absymal with the ball at his feet, particularly under any kind of pressure, then the fact that he's literally the worst goalkeeper in the league at leaving his line for both crosses and to sweep behind defenders isn't a good enough reason given Ten Hag wants us to play a high line then? What about the fact we had to abandon how Ten Hag wanted to play after two games because De Gea cost us 5 goals in those two games? Or the fact that his one supposedly redeeming quality is his shot stopping, which other than a 4 month purple patch between August & December of 2021, has also been below par for over 4 years?

We shouldn't get rid because of his contract, we should get rid because he's fecking dreadful.

A problem in the discussions about our players’ pros and cons, is that a portion of people who defend a position, will inevitably double, triple and quadruple down on that position, to the point that they in the end are adamantly certain about that position.

De Gea as a young keeper was pretty good with his feet. Playing under four managers not too fussed about playing out from the back (Ferguson, Moyes, Mourinho, Solskjær) has seen him not develop that side of the game, which is now a relative weakness. But not worse than that under extremist Louis Van Gaal, he overcame Van Gaals initial negativity to him, and was the league’s most active keeper with his feet. De Gea and Van Gaal didn’t get on, and De Gea wanted to leave, but Van Gaal insisted on keeping him, despite the fact that he could have picked almost any keeper in the world for the money that RM offered. Van Gaal obviously would never do that for a keeper ‘abysmal’ with his feet, and Bleacher report also described the Spaniard as a clockwork with his passing.

With regards to coming for crosses, there arescientific papers on the value of leaving the line vs staying at it for goalkeepers, and it is a debateable issue what pays the most.

This isn’t to say that De Gea is impeccable by any means, more to state that anyone thinking he is in fact a ‘dreadful’ keeper, while Ten Hag - who knows exactly how he wants to play - picks him for his first choice and sends Dean Henderson to Forest very early on, clearly has married himself to an irrational position being dead sure through arguing it rather than by weighing up different information.

 

[Grande]

De Gea ranked 2nd among goalkeepers in the league last season for shot stopping, which was good. But in the 3 seasons before that he ranked 15th, 10th and 8th, which was not. We need to shake this false idea that he's an excellent shot stopper, it really gets in the way of any debate about him.

He was 2nd in the league last year at shot stopping, but we need to shake the idea that he’s an excellent shot stopper?

 

[largelyworried]

He was 2nd in the league last year at shot stopping, but we need to shake the idea that he’s an excellent shot stopper?

Unless you think cherry picking 1 out of the last 4 seasons is the basis of sound analysis, yes. Over the long term he's been completely average.

 

[Grande]

Unless you think cherry picking 1 out of the last 4 seasons is the basis of sound analysis, yes. Over the long term he's been completely average.

Wait, you wont look at the last season, you won’t look at any of the seasons before 2019, and you don’t think cherry picking is sound analysis? How did you wind up with Last four seasons as your accidental measure?

Wouldn’t it be more interesting tosee behind the numbers? 2013-2018 De Gea was brilliant, voted the League’s best player and United’s best player by players and members alike, 2019-2021 he had a well known dip in form which some thought was temporary due to motivation, some thought was permanent due to age and loss of reflexes. 2021-22 he is once again voted best keeper in the league, after it being reported he reported a weak early for preseason.

So what do you think - is a calculating the means or assessing the progression most relevant to his next years development?

 

[Godfather]

Maignan. What do we think Milan would want for him?

 

[MadDogg]

What I am sayign though and why I agreed with the person writign careful what you wish for, where I taotally diagree, he is still a very good keeper at shot stopping and 4years? Come on? He had a really bad 18months and in all honesty hasnt had a good start to this season, outside of that he has been one of the very few reliable players the last decade.

De Gea hasn't been remotely the same since the 2018 World Cup. Other than the first half of last season, he has been very average in terms of shot-stopping since then (which is a bit over 4 years now). Now that doesn't necessarily mean that he can't still make the odd wonder save here and there, but for every one of those saves he will then turn around and mess up what should have been an easy save. So many people seem to completely ignore the large amount of mistakes that he makes these days.

 

[MadDogg]

Wait, you wont look at the last season, you won’t look at any of the seasons before 2019, and you don’t think cherry picking is sound analysis? How did you wind up with Last four seasons as your accidental measure?

What's accidental about it? In the last four years he's been poor for all of it bar the first half of last season. Maybe if you're being kind you could also say he was 'only' average in the first half of 18/19, not poor. But even then he's had one good half season, one average half season, and three downright poor seasons. That's far too long to just be a bit of a rough patch. It's the new normal, and he's started this season in much the same way. Combine that with how bad he is at pretty much every single aspect of being a goalkeeper outside of his shot-stopping, and it's amazing that he's still our #1.

 

[JB7]

A problem in the discussions about our players’ pros and cons, is that a portion of people who defend a position, will inevitably double, triple and quadruple down on that position, to the point that they in the end are adamantly certain about that position.

De Gea as a young keeper was pretty good with his feet. Playing under four managers not too fussed about playing out from the back (Ferguson, Moyes, Mourinho, Solskjær) has seen him not develop that side of the game, which is now a relative weakness. But not worse than that under extremist Louis Van Gaal, he overcame Van Gaals initial negativity to him, and was the league’s most active keeper with his feet. De Gea and Van Gaal didn’t get on, and De Gea wanted to leave, but Van Gaal insisted on keeping him, despite the fact that he could have picked almost any keeper in the world for the money that RM offered. Van Gaal obviously would never do that for a keeper ‘abysmal’ with his feet, and Bleacher report also described the Spaniard as a clockwork with his passing.

With regards to coming for crosses, there arescientific papers on the value of leaving the line vs staying at it for goalkeepers, and it is a debateable issue what pays the most.

This isn’t to say that De Gea is impeccable by any means, more to state that anyone thinking he is in fact a ‘dreadful’ keeper, while Ten Hag - who knows exactly how he wants to play - picks him for his first choice and sends Dean Henderson to Forest very early on, clearly has married himself to an irrational position being dead sure through arguing it rather than by weighing up different information.

Firstly, you don't know the first thing about my qualifications for discussing De Gea, I could be speaking from a position of never having played a game in my life or I could be speaking as a Premier League goalkeeping coach, or like the vast majority of people on here, I could be somewhere in between. It is pertinent to note that I only discuss one position in detail on this forum.

De Gea was fine with his feet in the early days, I've never said he wasn't. The issue is that as the game has progressed to the point where goalkeepers at every level are expected to be comfortable with the ball at their feet, De Gea has regressed at a substantial pace. You make the point about Van Gaal, firstly, he left the club six years ago. The more important factor was how the training for De Gea changed at that time, which was likely the cause of the issues between the two. Under Van Gaal the goalkeepers trained as part of the group the majority of the time, 80% of the time according to Frans Hoek the goalkeeping coach at the time. De Gea was a big part of resisting that, Hoek confirms it online, despite it contributing to the best, most rounded form of his career. It was interesting that after LVG/Hoek left the club, United brought in De Gea's choice of coach in Alvarez, the training changed, and his game regressed almost overnight in terms of the progress made under LVG.

In terms of crosses, it's not debatable in the slightest. There can be debates over isolated instances where a goalkeeper overcommits, and some goalkeepers do come for balls they shouldn't come for, but there is a reason the average goalkeeper comes for between 7-9% of crosses into the box; it prevents opportunities on goal from a short distance. Generally speaking, a goalkeeper coming out and dealing with a ball in his six yard box is considerably safer than sitting on his line hoping to save a header from four yards out. The issues come from goalkeepers coming 9/10 yards out to deal with balls they aren't getting close to. It is also important to note the majority of successful teams over the past 30 years have goalkeepers who were proactive when required with balls into the box.

Ten Hag didn't sent Henderson to Nottingham Forest by the way, Henderson made it very clear in his interview he wanted to be out of the door before training started. There were also strong rumours the club wanted Henderson gone as he was potentially deemed a part of the leaks culture. As such the options until just over a week ago were De Gea and Tom Heaton. We also stopped playing out from the back and playing such a high line after two games to protect the goalkeeper, we also approached two goalkeepers who would likely have taken over as first choice, neither of those things suggest Ten Hag has complete faith in De Gea.

 

[largelyworried]

Wait, you wont look at the last season, you won’t look at any of the seasons before 2019, and you don’t think cherry picking is sound analysis? How did you wind up with Last four seasons as your accidental measure?

Wouldn’t it be more interesting to see behind the numbers? 2013-2018 De Gea was brilliant, voted the League’s best player and United’s best player by players and members alike, 2019-2021 he had a well known dip in form which some thought was temporary due to motivation, some thought was permanent due to age and loss of reflexes. 2021-22 he is once again voted best keeper in the league, after it being reported he reported a weak early for preseason.

So what do you think - is a calculating the means or assessing the progression most relevant to his next years development?

I used four seasons because thats what the original posters were discussing and I kept to that time frame. However its a good moment to consider his later career from anyway, because his career changes quite markedly after the 2018 world cup and he's never maintained how he was before then. He certainly was good pre-2018, no disagreement there, but there's only so far back you can look to predict future form. Looking back two or three seasons, sure, but if you're really trawling back 5 or 6 years to find evidence supporting a players, that kind of says it all.

He was not in fact voted the best keeper in the league in 2021-2022, that was Alisson Becker. He hasn't been in the PFA team of the year since 2017-18. Since that time he's had one good season in terms of shot stopping, and even that was a game of two halves. In the second half of last season his shot stopping fell off a cliff and in the last 19 league games he was poor, conceding 2.2 more goals than the post shot-xG indicates (ie he conceded 2.2 goals more than even a bang average keeper would manage, never mind a good one). During that time he conceded more goals than the xG in 17 games.This season he's started, yet again, very average and is currently in 11th place on shot stopping.

His recent form shows him being very ordinary, and his mid-term form shows the same. Over his career, sure he's had plenty of great seasons, but that many years ago has little bearing on the present day. The good start to last season was both preceded and followed by consistently average form for longer periods. It would be wrong to try and pass that short spell off as the real picture of the player.

Not to mention the fact that this is only shot stopping we're talking about and he's incredibly weak in pretty much all other areas.

 

[Longshanks]

A problem in the discussions about our players’ pros and cons, is that a portion of people who defend a position, will inevitably double, triple and quadruple down on that position, to the point that they in the end are adamantly certain about that position.

De Gea as a young keeper was pretty good with his feet. Playing under four managers not too fussed about playing out from the back (Ferguson, Moyes, Mourinho, Solskjær) has seen him not develop that side of the game, which is now a relative weakness. But not worse than that under extremist Louis Van Gaal, he overcame Van Gaals initial negativity to him, and was the league’s most active keeper with his feet. De Gea and Van Gaal didn’t get on, and De Gea wanted to leave, but Van Gaal insisted on keeping him, despite the fact that he could have picked almost any keeper in the world for the money that RM offered. Van Gaal obviously would never do that for a keeper ‘abysmal’ with his feet, and Bleacher report also described the Spaniard as a clockwork with his passing.

With regards to coming for crosses, there arescientific papers on the value of leaving the line vs staying at it for goalkeepers, and it is a debateable issue what pays the most.

This isn’t to say that De Gea is impeccable by any means, more to state that anyone thinking he is in fact a ‘dreadful’ keeper, while Ten Hag - who knows exactly how he wants to play - picks him for his first choice and sends Dean Henderson to Forest very early on, clearly has married himself to an irrational position being dead sure through arguing it rather than by weighing up different information.

There is alot on inaccuracies in your post.

First of all ETH has never met Dean Henderson he didn't send him on loan, Henderson asked for the loan before ETH was even at the club and it was all approved and signed off long before pre-season started.

The argument about coming off the line vs staying on the line. What scientific study are you talking about? Generally speaking being more pro active and commanding your box as a GK (as long as you are competent at doing it) means less chances against, less corners against, less goals against and more possession for your team. Occansionly off course there are times where it would be better to stay on your line but that is normally the exception rather than the rule.

Also laughable that you think Ferguson and Solskjaer didn't encourage playing out from the back. They definitely did, Ferguson maybe not as much but Solskjaer definitely did it was one of our achilles heels under him (i wonder why) apart from the short period where Henderson was in nets where remarkably we looked like a good side, capable of keeping possession and playing a high line.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I reckon the club will go for Meslier. Luckhurst mentioned over the summer he's our earmarked successor to DDG.

he’s awful, believe me when I say he isn’t a ball playing keeper. He makes far too many mistakes pretty much every game too.

 

[Grande]

What's accidental about it? In the last four years he's been poor for all of it bar the first half of last season. Maybe if you're being kind you could also say he was 'only' average in the first half of 18/19, not poor. But even then he's had one good half season, one average half season, and three downright poor seasons. That's far too long to just be a bit of a rough patch. It's the new normal, and he's started this season in much the same way. Combine that with how bad he is at pretty much every single aspect of being a goalkeeper outside of his shot-stopping, and it's amazing that he's still our #1.

I agree with you, there seemed to be very little accidental about it. You are answering a post answering a post. The post claimed to be against cherry picking.while insisting on using the last four seasons as a measure, not the last, the last two, the last six. I didn’t believe it was accidental either, rather a cherrypicker annoyed that cherries can be differently picked.

Apart from that, I get that it is amazing to you that he’s at his ninth straight coach here making him no 1, it seems incredible if your impression of him is right. If not impossible. You must be very curious as to what they know that you don’t?

 

[Mwooyo]

De gea is just the new luke shaw or the new maguire. They are so similar even to how they sound even when they are interviewed...i must be good if managers keep picking me...I played well on a personal level etc.

People talk about the half season they were good...and why all the other managers kept picking them thru the years...and that they must be really good...and yet the real problem is simple. The club didnt have a good alternative at the time the manager was absolutely fed up of the said player and was ready to drop them, so they continued to get picked just because they are only option...not the best option. This is why to some fans, its a shock that maguire and luke shaw are being benched....while to others who watch other teams in addition to manutd, it was obvious they were not good enough long term.

De gea is not good enough to be manutd number 1 long term, the only reason he still plays is there is no better alternative currently at the club. Its so obvious if you have actually watched other teams play. No top 4 team would take him over their current options. Just watch other top GKs and then watch De Gea...its a no brainer that Spain dropped him from the national team a long time ago. Even madrid didnt bother to make another attempt to sign him...why...becoz he declined at all the things a modern day GK should have....and they had better alternatives on hand.

 

[Grande]

Firstly, you don't know the first thing about my qualifications for discussing De Gea, I could be speaking from a position of never having played a game in my life or I could be speaking as a Premier League goalkeeping coach, or like the vast majority of people on here, I could be somewhere in between. It is pertinent to note that I only discuss one position in detail on this forum.

De Gea was fine with his feet in the early days, I've never said he wasn't. The issue is that as the game has progressed to the point where goalkeepers at every level are expected to be comfortable with the ball at their feet, De Gea has regressed at a substantial pace. You make the point about Van Gaal, firstly, he left the club six years ago. The more important factor was how the training for De Gea changed at that time, which was likely the cause of the issues between the two. Under Van Gaal the goalkeepers trained as part of the group the majority of the time, 80% of the time according to Frans Hoek the goalkeeping coach at the time. De Gea was a big part of resisting that, Hoek confirms it online, despite it contributing to the best, most rounded form of his career. It was interesting that after LVG/Hoek left the club, United brought in De Gea's choice of coach in Alvarez, the training changed, and his game regressed almost overnight in terms of the progress made under LVG.

In terms of crosses, it's not debatable in the slightest. There can be debates over isolated instances where a goalkeeper overcommits, and some goalkeepers do come for balls they shouldn't come for, but there is a reason the average goalkeeper comes for between 7-9% of crosses into the box; it prevents opportunities on goal from a short distance. Generally speaking, a goalkeeper coming out and dealing with a ball in his six yard box is considerably safer than sitting on his line hoping to save a header from four yards out. The issues come from goalkeepers coming 9/10 yards out to deal with balls they aren't getting close to. It is also important to note the majority of successful teams over the past 30 years have goalkeepers who were proactive when required with balls into the box.

Ten Hag didn't sent Henderson to Nottingham Forest by the way, Henderson made it very clear in his interview he wanted to be out of the door before training started. There were also strong rumours the club wanted Henderson gone as he was potentially deemed a part of the leaks culture. As such the options until just over a week ago were De Gea and Tom Heaton. We also stopped playing out from the back and playing such a high line after two games to protect the goalkeeper, we also approached two goalkeepers who would likely have taken over as first choice, neither of those things suggest Ten Hag has complete faith in De Gea.

First, I reread my post to find where I implied to know anything about your qualifications regarding goalkeeping. I couldn’t find it, maybe I missed it?
What I did find, was the effect argumenting for something long enough does to some people. This applies for professionals even, at times.

You seem to know a lot about goalkeeping, I presume a lot more than players who voted De Gea best United player last season. They aren’t goalkeeper coaches, so it is imaginable that they would vote an awful player as their player of the year. Player of the year at the sixth beat club of the best league, an awful player surely couldn’t do that? If you are, in fact Goalkeeping coach in the PL, I accept that you know much more than them, even if it’s them who time and time again has to clear up their POTY’s mess, defend his absence or get blamed for the passes he sets them up with. They are after all not goalkeeper coaches, far from it. I’m more plussed why Solskjær, after pushing out Alvarez and after giving Henderson a chance, reverted back to De Gea, and Rangnik continued to stick with him. Do they know nothing about goalkeeping? Don’t they have very accomplished goalkeeping coaches to debate with? Would they, up against the wall, keep sticking to an awful goalkeeper? Henderson must have been horrific at training, even before he started to complain. I am also surprised if Erik Ten Hag arrived at United in premio June, with his famed fancy for detail and preparation - not knowing that the one goalkeeper remaining was utterly incompetent, impossible to suit to his football, even though a few easy searches in stats banks or social media could tell him so. Because if he knew what you say is easily obtainable knowledge and plainly evident, that De Gea is in fact awful as a goalkeeper, and completely horrific with his feet, Ten Hag must have prioritized a new first goalkeeper even ahead of De Jong. He’d be mad not to. Or grossly incompetent.

it’s that, or it’s that De Gea isn’t awful or useless, but rather a very good keeper, a better keeper still than probably any PL goalkeeping coach now ever was (I’m guessing). A keeper with weak points. A keeper with limitations. A keeper maybe on the wane. But I find it hard to believe a PL Goalkeeper coach, knowing what it takes to be at that level, would call him awful, unless he had argued himself into an irrational dislike, defending an exaggerated position as if it was mere fact.

 

[MadDogg]

I agree with you, there seemed to be very little accidental about it. You are answering a post answering a post. The post claimed to be against cherry picking.while insisting on using the last four seasons as a measure, not the last, the last two, the last six. I didn’t believe it was accidental either, rather a cherrypicker annoyed that cherries can be differently picked.

Picking half a good season over the last four years is absolutely cherry picking. Half a season is far too short a period to have any real meaning, so when it is surrounded by poor periods both before and after it has to be taken as the exception.

Whereas four years is absolutely enough to take real meaning. Indeed it's basically irrelevant what happened half a decade ago in football, which is how far you have to go back to find De Gea in top form. The only way it can be classed as cherry picking is if we were discussing his career as a whole and people were trying to claim that his current level was how he always was. Since the discussion is about him in the current game, it's certainly not cherry picking.

 

[jesperjaap]

Yes four years. His shot stopping statistics are incredibly average over the past four years for a goalkeeper who's only positive is that he's supposed to be a world class shot stopper. His PSxG over the past five years are as follows:
21/22: +6.7 (worth noting he was +11 or so at the end of December so his drop off in 2022 was rather astonishing, roughly -4 vs an average goalkeeper).
20/21: +0.1.
19/20: +2.1
18/19: +0.1
17/18: +8.5

So if you consider 0 to be the benchmark for an average goalkeeper in PSxG, he was slightly above average in 19/20, bang on average in 18/19 and 20/21, way above average in the first half of 21/22 and way below average in the second half of 21/22.

So the reality is that his shot stopping, which was his only redeeming quality given he offers nothing whatsoever in terms of shot prevention, has been pretty average for 3 1/2 of the last 4 years. And when you factor in the shot prevention you'd expect from an average Premier League goalkeeper (people seem to think this is a modern goalkeeper thing, it isn't) , which I did the maths on last season and the average goalkeeper in the Premier League was I think two or three times more likely to sweep behind the defenders and three times as likely to deal with a cross into the box, means he is not even a goalkeeper that is anywhere near the required standard for a club expecting to finish mid-table, let alone towards the top of the table.

The reality is we would be improved by a goalkeeper who is average across the board, you only have to look at our record with Henderson in goal to see that, or even Romero before him. De Gea has to make so many supposedly excellent saves because he offers nothing whatsoever to prevent those opportunities in the first instance, or he gives the ball away leading to the opportunity. Yes, you might end up with a goalkeeper that doesn't pull out a worldie of a save two or three times a season, but if they are twice as likely to deal with a cross into the box or three times as likely to deal with a ball in behind the defence, it would result in comfortably less opportunities for the opposition to score overall and would therefore be a certainty to be a net gain overall.

Jeez are we still talking about DeGea here r are you reliving Good Will Hunting?

 

[NewYorkRed]

Dave saves. Dave stays.
He’s not going anywhere.

 

[Member 105568]

He can still reject City, he's under no obligation to go back.

Of course he can. I’d guess that he wouldn’t though. Obviously, United could just go in big next summer instead and force the issue their way

 

[Grande]

I used four seasons because thats what the original posters were discussing and I kept to that time frame. However its a good moment to consider his later career from anyway, because his career changes quite markedly after the 2018 world cup and he's never maintained how he was before then. He certainly was good pre-2018, no disagreement there, but there's only so far back you can look to predict future form. Looking back two or three seasons, sure, but if you're really trawling back 5 or 6 years to find evidence supporting a players, that kind of says it all.

He was not in fact voted the best keeper in the league in 2021-2022, that was Alisson Becker. He hasn't been in the PFA team of the year since 2017-18. Since that time he's had one good season in terms of shot stopping, and even that was a game of two halves. In the second half of last season his shot stopping fell off a cliff and in the last 19 league games he was poor, conceding 2.2 more goals than the post shot-xG indicates (ie he conceded 2.2 goals more than even a bang average keeper would manage, never mind a good one). During that time he conceded more goals than the xG in 17 games.This season he's started, yet again, very average and is currently in 11th place on shot stopping.

His recent form shows him being very ordinary, and his mid-term form shows the same. Over his career, sure he's had plenty of great seasons, but that many years ago has little bearing on the present day. The good start to last season was both preceded and followed by consistently average form for longer periods. It would be wrong to try and pass that short spell off as the real picture of the player.

Not to mention the fact that this is only shot stopping we're talking about and he's incredibly weak in pretty much all other areas.

All right, so you stuck to another poster’s cherrypicking, and then accused me of cherrypicking.

I think it’s interesting why De Gea was so good until 2017-18, and why he deteriorated so much at an early age for the seasons 2018-19 and up to 2020-21. I’m also interested in why he was so good in 2021-22 season, up until somewhere into the Rangnik era. And why he fell back after that. Then I’m interested in why he was surprisingly bad against Brentford, and why he’s been good since then.

I think ‘was good before/is bad now’ is simplistic, and badly explains the changes in form. This includes any ‘reflexes’, ‘stylistic dinosaur’ explanations.

I think a few people here struggle to explain how he could play half a season with recordbreaking S/xG last season. Their reasons for his demise doesn’t gel well with this period, whereas his deflation along with the entire reat of the team under Rangnik, is very easily explained by more than one factor.

I think playing style, coaching style, confidence and motivation comes into it. In a way complex enough that Ten Hag managed to beat Liverpool and Arsenal in consecutive home games with him in goal, a few games after the Brentford horrorshow.

I am interested to see wether Ten Hag will now use the mourning/international break to drill the team with Dubravka, our new Slovakian Right winger/sweeper keeper as our new no 1, or wether he will continue with De Gea for a while. I suspect the latter, but I’m not certain.

Picking half a good season over the last four years is absolutely cherry picking. Half a season is far too short a period to have any real meaning, so when it is surrounded by poor periods both before and after it has to be taken as the exception.

Whereas four years is absolutely enough to take real meaning. Indeed it's basically irrelevant what happened half a decade ago in football, which is how far you have to go back to find De Gea in top form. The only way it can be classed as cherry picking is if we were discussing his career as a whole and people were trying to claim that his current level was how he always was. Since the discussion is about him in the current game, it's certainly not cherry picking.

You don’t seem to get the gist of the term cherry picking, so it’s strange that you should butt in into someone elses conversation to lecture about it.

Cherry picking statistical samples means Exactly picking a sample period to suit a presupposed result. Choosing the last four seasons of De Gea, to coincide with a perceived drop in form, is exactly cherry picking in this case. You could use five seasons, three seasons, two seasons, one seasons, half a season. But four seasons is the maximal choice to get the most of his weak form and the least of his good form. I.e. cherry picking.

 

[RedOrange]

Cherry picking statistical samples means Exactly picking a sample period to suit a presupposed result. Choosing the last four seasons of De Gea, to coincide with a perceived drop in form, is exactly cherry picking in this case. You could use five seasons, three seasons, two seasons, one seasons, half a season. But four seasons is the maximal choice to get the most of his weak form and the least of his good form. I.e. cherry picking.

Taking the sample of his last 5 seasons is not cherrypicking in the context of a professional athlete's individual stats. Those stats represent all the Premier league matches he's played in that timeframe, with no data disregarded between the start and ending interval. Do you really think De Gea's stats from more than 5 years ago are more relevant than the ones from his last 5 years? That's a long time in professional sports. If we're trying to find a statistic that can give us an indication of future performace, his average over the last 5 seasons is a better indicator than the average over his entire career. A weighted average, weighing recent seasons higher than previous ones is probably a better indicator overall.

It's worth noting too that those advanced stats don't go back any further than 2017-18 on fbref. Suggesting that the OP has deliberately cherrypicked statistics in this case is ridiculous. Choosing only his stats in the poorer seasons, or the 3 year interval of 2018-19 to 2020-21 would be cherrypicking. So would picking only the data from before 2018-19.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I would absolutely love if we got Bazunu. The kid is special but the logistics of any deal would be tough.

Maignan is obviously class but you’d be looking at a massive fee probably near Kepa levels to get him, and he’s not nearly as young as Bazunu.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

I would be happy with Sanchez or Raya.

 

[Grande]

Taking the sample of his last 5 seasons is not cherrypicking in the context of a professional athlete's individual stats. Those stats represent all the Premier league matches he's played in that timeframe, with no data disregarded between the start and ending interval. Do you really think De Gea's stats from more than 5 years ago are more relevant than the ones from his last 5 years? That's a long time in professional sports. If we're trying to find a statistic that can give us an indication of future performace, his average over the last 5 seasons is a better indicator than the average over his entire career. A weighted average, weighing recent seasons higher than previous ones is probably a better indicator overall.

It's worth noting too that those advanced stats don't go back any further than 2017-18 on fbref. Suggesting that the OP has deliberately cherrypicked statistics in this case is ridiculous. Choosing only his stats in the poorer seasons, or the 3 year interval of 2018-19 to 2020-21 would be cherrypicking. So would picking only the data from before 2018-19.

What are these 5 seasons of which you speak, and how do they relate to my post? Where did I suggest that the OP have cherry picked statistics, and are there at all any statistics in the OP?

 

[RedOrange]

What are these 5 seasons of which you speak, and how do they relate to my post? Where did I suggest that the OP have cherry picked statistics, and are there at all any statistics in the OP?

By OP i meant the poster you accused of cherry picking statistics. He cited De Gea's post shot expected goals against from 2017-18 to 2021-22, and you said they were cherrypicked.

You could use five seasons, three seasons, two seasons, one seasons, half a season. But four seasons is the maximal choice to get the most of his weak form and the least of his good form. I.e. cherry picking.

Like I said, 2017-18 is as far back as those statistics go on fbref, so he didn't really cherrypick the stats, and 5 seasons isn't an unreasonable sample size.

I'm happy to help with whatever else you're confused about, just let me know.