AN17
Full Member
I reckon they'll do well. Will they finish top 4 for two seasons in a row? I doubt it, the trends certainly doesn't point that way as Glaston would say.
What challenge? The point gap had been pretty consistent between Leicester & Spurs for most part. Only because it's Leicester (unfamiliar title challenger) that people held a doubt that they might fall apart at some point thus the hope for Spurs (closest to them to be able to catch up). Had it been City, Chelsea, United in place of Leicester then that point gap was considered pretty safe cushion.Im an Arsenal fan and I understand the North London rivalry and everything but nonetheless I believe they'll be right up there challenging once again next season.
They have a young talented squad that have had experience last season of playing together, a fantastic hungry young manager in Pochetino and have made some smart acquisitions in the transfer window.
What I think gives them an advantage over the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United is their cohesiveness in style of play and stability in the squad whereas contrastingly the other top teams barring Arsenal have to adapt to their new managers systems and tactics alongside new signings needing that settling down period to adjust to the fast paced Premier League.
Recently Ive Seen and heard many football fans writing Tottenham off for the upcoming campaign but I think they'll surprise everybody and be fully in contention for the league.
It doesn't. The first XI of many Prem teams last season didn't contain the same number of young players as did Spurs first XI ... and several of the other teams contained players who are past their peak (again unlike Spurs first XI), so it's reasonable to expect that an unchanged Spurs first XI is likely to improve further this coming season than would an unchanged first XI of several other Prem teams. This is why Pochettino has not felt the need to try and improve the first XI with new signings ... because he thinks they'll likely improve anyway. And I agree with him.
Saying that United and City had a poor season is just another way of saying that actually their squad and managers just weren't that good, and that Spurs were better. It's a throw-away excuse designed to avoid any great scrutiny of the actual quality of several of their players ... as if it was just all down to some mysterious "poor season" syndrome.
I agree that Spurs have lot of young players, so you feel they will improve lot than other teams. That's a fair point but other teams are not relying on natural progression. They are signing better players than in the first team to improve. End of the day, Spurs first 11 wasn't good enough to win the league, wasn't good enough to finish above Arsenal and was good enough to finish just 4 points above ManUtd and City.
Spurs were better and I don't think anyone would disagree with that, question is how much better. They were just 4 points better which is sort of negligible.
I'm not saying Spurs first 11 is poor, it is good but can be improved which they didn't at least for now.
You're being too kind with this. United, City saw their former coaches as not good enough and they replaced them. Better coaches can make up that gap easily. Then both City and United are looking to significantly improve their squads with signings. So both teams already changed from last season. So the brutal truth is Mourinho and Pep may already set their eyes on title challenge and last year might as well as be binned in the history trash can. (Mourinho keeps telling fans to forget about past 3 years, even in his first interview as United manager. Pep talked about titles in his unveiling show)I agree that Spurs have lot of young players, so you feel they will improve lot than other teams. That's a fair point but other teams are not relying on natural progression. They are signing better players than in the first team to improve. End of the day, Spurs first 11 wasn't good enough to win the league, wasn't good enough to finish above Arsenal and was good enough to finish just 4 points above ManUtd and City.
Spurs were better and I don't think anyone would disagree with that, question is how much better. They were just 4 points better which is sort of negligible.
I'm not saying Spurs first 11 is poor, it is good but can be improved which they didn't at least for now.
You're Tottenham. We're United.In essence you're suggesting that Spurs players over-performed last season, whilst those of United, City and Arsenal all under-performed (I'm not sure why you are even mentioning Liverpool, since they've finished below Spurs for many seasons past now bar once). Well, it's a convenient theory ... convenient that is, for the supporters of United and City in particular.
However, what if the performance of Spurs players generally was actually the level they've reached now - not "over-performance", but just par for where they now are? And what if this "par performance" - being young n' all - goes up a notch or two next season? And what if United and City did not underperform? What if they had declined and their performance levels were just par for what they'd become?
These are questions to ponder IMO, rather than just blithely assuming it's all down to a nebulous "under" or "over" performance.
I'd say that the only team that clearly under-performed is Chelski - because a drop of 9 league places is too large to explain away otherwise.
I think this is the key point for me. Glaston obviously likes to get carried away about Spurs but the gap was just 4 points. And that's with United having one of their worst seasons under a lame-duck manager and Spurs supposedly having their best PL season. And United actually won a major trophy, something Spurs haven't managed in over 20 years.
To paint some picture of doom and gloom for United whilst being completely at ease with the situation of Spurs just doesn't tally with reality. Going by the league table and the ability to amass points, there's a hair's breadth between the sides. Going by ability to win trophies, United have an edge - success breeds success etc.
And that's without even considering any of the business done this summer (or lack thereof).
You're being too kind with this. United, City saw their former coaches as not good enough and they replaced them. Better coaches can make up that gap easily. Then both City and United are looking to significantly improve their squads with signings. So both teams already changed from last season. So the brutal truth is Mourinho and Pep may already set their eyes on title challenge and last year might as well as be binned in the history trash can. (Mourinho keeps telling fans to forget about past 3 years, even in his first interview as United manager. Pep talked about titles in his unveiling show)
Missed my point. Everyone can see that, hence the change in management and the investment in improving the squad. City too.Yeah can't understand the picture of all doom and gloom when it comes to United when it was just 4 points behind Spurs and 5 points behind arsenal. We have made lot of moves to address that already.
Jose, Shaw coming back, signing CB, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan and about to sign one more midfielder.
Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.
I think Spurs were better than us last season.
Missed my point. Everyone can see that, hence the change in management and the investment in improving the squad. City too.
Point is both Mourinho and Pep already see past catching up to Tottenham phase. They are talking about the title. Both clubs look at this moment and the near future.
Yeah can't understand the picture of all doom and gloom when it comes to United when it was just 4 points behind Spurs and 5 points behind arsenal. We have made lot of moves to address that already.
Jose, Shaw coming back, signing CB, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan and about to sign one more midfielder.
Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.
I think Spurs were better than us last season.
You're Tottenham. We're United...
He said 'New Signings', not Managers, need to adjust.I have no idea why you have included United in that list. Mourinho hasn't just fallen off the tree. Yes the style of play may be a bit different but Mourinho knows the league the best of all the managers (teams) you mentioned and would not have the worry of adjusting to the "fast paced league". He won it a season ago ffs.
United have the second youngest side in the league anyway, so not sure why that's a huge advantage for Spurs in any case.
Of course the key is to blend it with experience to get you over the line, something we definitely lacked last season, and Spurs
Not trying to be particularly funny.Did you think this would be more funny second time round?
Usually these are youngsters who weren't very good in the first place.Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.
I agree with that but all teams will have new signings in their starting 11. I will be surprised if Spurs don't have that.He said 'New Signings', not Managers, need to adjust.
Not trying to be particularly funny.
Just displaying the typical United fan arrogance in all its glory.
Usually these are youngsters who weren't very good in the first place.
How many youngsters who've played a big part in a top four finish have failed to build and become better?
Just 20 names would do.
You also better go on to the Martial thread and remind everyone that this isn't Football Manager and he may end up alongside those 100s of young players.
And Shaw's thread.
Did anyone even say that all youngsters progress?And how do you know youngsters weren't good enough? Yes once they failed to step up. I didn't say youngsters don't progress but it's hard to believe all youngsters progress.
Few of the names from top of my head
Balotelli- played part in Inter winning treble.
Stanton - compared with Maldini after his first season.
Januzaj
Welbeck
Wilshere
Rafael
Bojan
Shaqiri
Babel
Insua
Anderson
Gago
Canales
Sterling
Jenas
Wright phillips
And there are many.
Did anyone even say that all youngsters progress?
Tottenham fans have mentioned that they have a young squad/first eleven (the youngest in the league) that should improve as a unit after a year of playing together and without too many personnel changes.
Hardly a crazy statement, and hardly suggesting that ALL youngsters progress.
Half of that list were never that good. The Tottenham players have achieved more in this one year than the vast majority of those listed players. I wanted a list of players who have actually displayed their talent (through league place or good numbers in a strong league) not a list of over-hyped kids.
If you're going to bring up the FM argument, then you should also do it in the Martial and Shaw threads, where people are getting giddy about them improving next season.
Cut age: 24. Failed to build and become better: stagnated in their development (not necessarily turned shit in every case) at this time (if they still young at this moment who may improve in the future). Important role in top 4 season: 30+ apps per season in all competition. League: PLUsually these are youngsters who weren't very good in the first place.
How many youngsters who've played a big part in a top four finish have failed to build and become better?
Just 20 names would do.
You also better go on to the Martial thread and remind everyone that this isn't Football Manager and he may end up alongside those 100s of young players.
And Shaw's thread.
I already put out condition, even added up to this time. Injury or not, that's part of football. Some great players got injured and stagnated, in worse case, they never be the same. What can guarantee that Tottenham players would stay healthy this coming season?@ti vu You shouldn't try to pad your list. Some are debatable some are just plain wrong (Woodgate - who's career was curtained by injury and certainly not a lack of skill, he was great for Real when fit - and Flamini), for some injury has sidetracked their careers (whether they will come back is another question; Henderson, Walcott) and in other cases it is far too early to call it (Oscar, Sterling). However what is clear is that to say "Failed to build and become better' is clearly wrong or obfuscating the truth, for a number of those on your list. There's also a difference between carving out a good career as a decent pro and becoming a star. I'm not sure even half of those were considered star-material.
That's very difficult to quantify. Who would have said Mahrez or Payet were star material a couple of seasons ago or even Vardy playing in Non-league football (note : 'star material' in a non-definable term)? Certainly they have a few, as do most teams near the top of the PL table.Not many Tottenham young players are star material.
Hence I did not discuss star material in my original post, did I? Only listed young players who played big role in their team top 4 season, whom for different reasons, stagnated as for the challenge.That's very difficult to quantify. Who would have said Mahrez or Payet were star material a couple of seasons ago or even Vardy playing in Non-league football (note : 'star material' in a non-definable term)? Certainly they have a few, as do most teams near the top of the PL table.
It's not so much 'pigeon holing' as discussing how Dier might fare in European football, which is fair enough, isn't it? If you feel confident about him against the best CL teams, that's fine of course, but it's not unreasonable to note Dier has limitations and that he doesn't come across as a DM that will be comfortable in European football, as a lot of British DMs before him. And I actually like and rate Dier, just think at the moment his limitations will be apparent in that competition. Could progress of course.Dier had experience playing as a DM at Sporting Lisbon before he even came to Spurs. And even if he began his footballing life as defender and can fill in as such when needed, so what? Bale began as a left back, but look at his role(s) now.
Your rigid pigeon-holing doesn't fit with reality.
2 = many... okayAlli was just as good as Martial last season.
Kane is in the top 3 strikers in the league.
People rave about U
Alli was just as good as Martial last season.
Kane is in the top 3 strikers in the league. Januzaj is around Lamela's level of potential/promise.
People rave about United's youngster and label them star material, when Tottenham arguably have a better bunch.
Not particularly bothered whether it's many or not. Just interesting how easily dismissed Tottenham's youngsters are. When they're every bit as good as United's.2 = many... okay
He was, and it's mostly United bias that prevents you from seeing it.That is simply not true.
He was, and it's mostly United bias that prevents you from seeing it.
Whether he's as good as martial or not, he performed just as well last season in the Premier League. Almost identical goal records, and just as many moments of magic.
Not bothered talking about United youngster either as they can easily become overrated after few bad games by the standard here. Not like everyone is happy with the over-reliance on the like of Martial and Rashford.Not particularly bothered whether it's many or not. Just interesting how easily dismissed Tottenham's youngsters are. When they're every bit as good as United's.
Fair enough. And I agree.Not bothered talking about United youngster either as they can easily become overrated after few bad games by the standard here.
United fan.Who do you support out of interest?
Holding an opinion that Martial performed to a higher standard than Alli is not bias. It's just an opinion. Remember Martial basically won United the FA Cup with his semi final performance too.
He was recently named the most valuable young player in the world by soccerex. Are they also biased?
Well I don't have a horse in this race but considering Alli was voted PFA Young Player of the Year then it probably is true !That is simply not true.
United fan.
https://www.thepfa.com/thepfa/pfaawards/mens-pfa-young-player-of-the-year-dele-alli-2016
According to this, Dele Alli is/was the most valuable teenager in Europe.
I don't have too much idea what goes into the calculation of those things.
Maybe it's inaccurate, or maybe it's changed since.
I think most neutrals would have both Alli and Martial as two of the standout young performers last season, and there would be very very little in it either way. On a Tottenham forum, they'd say Alli was better in the league last season; on a United forum, they'd say Martial.
I'm speculating here, but most United fans wouldn't even entertain the idea that Alli was as good as (not even better than) Martial last season in the league.I feel that is a biased opinion (which is natural).
Like I said, we don't know how what goes into this calculations. It doesn't mean Martial had a better 2015-16 than Alli, just like Hazard (most likely) being higher valued than Kane doesn't.http://www.skysports.com/football/n...most-valuable-u21-according-to-soccerex-study
This is from last week. Clearly biased though right?
Or maybe they're just expressing an entirely fair opinion which would be shared by many people regardless of their affiliation.
Or do we need to call out any opinion which favours a United player as biased?
Not to blow your cover but your posting history is a trainwreck if you're a United fan. Feel free to come out of the closet. You're safe here.
Missed my point. Everyone can see that, hence the change in management and the investment in improving the squad. City too.
Point is both Mourinho and Pep already see past catching up to Tottenham phase. They are talking about the title. Both clubs look at this moment and the near future.
Slightly off topic, but I'd argue getting used to Pep's style is probably harder than getting to used to Jose's style, from the players' point of view. Jose isn't a micromanaging overthinker. His teams tend to play a fairly straightforward style.The same applies to City, albeit to a lesser extent. And then there's the fact that Pep is new to the Prem.