The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned

Will Spurs finish in top 4 in the upcoming season?

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Im an Arsenal fan and I understand the North London rivalry and everything but nonetheless I believe they'll be right up there challenging once again next season.

They have a young talented squad that have had experience last season of playing together, a fantastic hungry young manager in Pochetino and have made some smart acquisitions in the transfer window.

What I think gives them an advantage over the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United is their cohesiveness in style of play and stability in the squad whereas contrastingly the other top teams barring Arsenal have to adapt to their new managers systems and tactics alongside new signings needing that settling down period to adjust to the fast paced Premier League.
Recently Ive Seen and heard many football fans writing Tottenham off for the upcoming campaign but I think they'll surprise everybody and be fully in contention for the league.
What challenge? The point gap had been pretty consistent between Leicester & Spurs for most part. Only because it's Leicester (unfamiliar title challenger) that people held a doubt that they might fall apart at some point thus the hope for Spurs (closest to them to be able to catch up). Had it been City, Chelsea, United in place of Leicester then that point gap was considered pretty safe cushion.

Friendly reminder: Leicester won the league with few games to spare. Many times in the past, title was only decided by last match day result.

Young squad & play together had nothing to do with title challenging. How many young squad and play together had Wenger built for Arsenal? His title count had stopped over decade ago.

Young fantastic hungry manager again means jackshit. Moyes was given this exact same praise when he made top 4 with Everton when he was 44 of age (similar age to now Poch). Age is only a promising reference on how a manager can improve with time (similar with players), doesn't indicate a guaranteed growth. Moyes never kicked on since 44 of age. Mourinho won league and UEFA Cup with Porto at 43 of age (won treble the next year), so it was promising with him and he was able to kick on. Mourinho was in the special categories which very few shares.

Smart acquisition? What makes Spurs signings smarter than other teams?

For Tottenham to replicate last season form is already hard enough. That form may not be enough for top 4 this season, let alone title challenge. New season starts with brand new plate. Taking one strange season as the norm is naive.
 
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I believe how Tottenham fare this season would be the better indicator of their progress.

Spurs have been in and around top four for quite few seasons and were well placed to take advantage of any slip by usual top four contenders which they duly did last season . This season I am expecting United,City and Chelsea to show significant improvement due to the quality of the managers and as well investment made into their squads . You can always count on Wenger to guide Arsenal into the the top four without fail.

Tottenham summer activity so far indicates they are just trying to improve the squad options which I believe is a mistake as they also need to improve their first 11 to stay competitive for the top 4 let alone make a title challenge.
 
It doesn't. The first XI of many Prem teams last season didn't contain the same number of young players as did Spurs first XI ... and several of the other teams contained players who are past their peak (again unlike Spurs first XI), so it's reasonable to expect that an unchanged Spurs first XI is likely to improve further this coming season than would an unchanged first XI of several other Prem teams. This is why Pochettino has not felt the need to try and improve the first XI with new signings ... because he thinks they'll likely improve anyway. And I agree with him.

I agree that Spurs have lot of young players, so you feel they will improve lot than other teams. That's a fair point but other teams are not relying on natural progression. They are signing better players than in the first team to improve. End of the day, Spurs first 11 wasn't good enough to win the league, wasn't good enough to finish above Arsenal and was good enough to finish just 4 points above ManUtd and City.

Saying that United and City had a poor season is just another way of saying that actually their squad and managers just weren't that good, and that Spurs were better. It's a throw-away excuse designed to avoid any great scrutiny of the actual quality of several of their players ... as if it was just all down to some mysterious "poor season" syndrome.

Spurs were better and I don't think anyone would disagree with that, question is how much better. They were just 4 points better which is sort of negligible.

I'm not saying Spurs first 11 is poor, it is good but can be improved which they didn't at least for now.
 
I agree that Spurs have lot of young players, so you feel they will improve lot than other teams. That's a fair point but other teams are not relying on natural progression. They are signing better players than in the first team to improve. End of the day, Spurs first 11 wasn't good enough to win the league, wasn't good enough to finish above Arsenal and was good enough to finish just 4 points above ManUtd and City.



Spurs were better and I don't think anyone would disagree with that, question is how much better. They were just 4 points better which is sort of negligible.

I'm not saying Spurs first 11 is poor, it is good but can be improved which they didn't at least for now.

I think this is the key point for me. Glaston obviously likes to get carried away about Spurs but the gap was just 4 points. And that's with United having one of their worst seasons under a lame-duck manager and Spurs supposedly having their best PL season. And United actually won a major trophy, something Spurs haven't managed in over 20 years.

To paint some picture of doom and gloom for United whilst being completely at ease with the situation of Spurs just doesn't tally with reality. Going by the league table and the ability to amass points, there's a hair's breadth between the sides. Going by ability to win trophies, United have an edge - success breeds success etc.

And that's without even considering any of the business done this summer (or lack thereof).
 
I agree that Spurs have lot of young players, so you feel they will improve lot than other teams. That's a fair point but other teams are not relying on natural progression. They are signing better players than in the first team to improve. End of the day, Spurs first 11 wasn't good enough to win the league, wasn't good enough to finish above Arsenal and was good enough to finish just 4 points above ManUtd and City.



Spurs were better and I don't think anyone would disagree with that, question is how much better. They were just 4 points better which is sort of negligible.

I'm not saying Spurs first 11 is poor, it is good but can be improved which they didn't at least for now.
You're being too kind with this. United, City saw their former coaches as not good enough and they replaced them. Better coaches can make up that gap easily. Then both City and United are looking to significantly improve their squads with signings. So both teams already changed from last season. So the brutal truth is Mourinho and Pep may already set their eyes on title challenge and last year might as well as be binned in the history trash can. (Mourinho keeps telling fans to forget about past 3 years, even in his first interview as United manager. Pep talked about titles in his unveiling show)
 
In essence you're suggesting that Spurs players over-performed last season, whilst those of United, City and Arsenal all under-performed (I'm not sure why you are even mentioning Liverpool, since they've finished below Spurs for many seasons past now bar once). Well, it's a convenient theory ... convenient that is, for the supporters of United and City in particular.

However, what if the performance of Spurs players generally was actually the level they've reached now - not "over-performance", but just par for where they now are? And what if this "par performance" - being young n' all - goes up a notch or two next season? And what if United and City did not underperform? What if they had declined and their performance levels were just par for what they'd become?

These are questions to ponder IMO, rather than just blithely assuming it's all down to a nebulous "under" or "over" performance.

I'd say that the only team that clearly under-performed is Chelski - because a drop of 9 league places is too large to explain away otherwise.
You're Tottenham. We're United.
United have a divine right to be better than Tottenham. Even if United's players aren't better than Tottenham's, they're still better because they play in United shirts. There's no question that United were stronger in every single position on the field last season. They just had a poor manager.

How dare you even suggest that Tottenham have players as good as United? Or good enough to sustain a challenge to the top four?

It's comforting to just accept that Tottenham had a one-off season (like Leicester).
One-offs can be tolerated. But know your place. You're only allowed one good season. Leicester are cute.
Have another good season and you're starting to threaten the big boys. We know we claim we like competitiveness, but actually we'd prefer for the same top four to remain every season. Because it's comfortable.

United are better than Tottenham, so there can be no reason for last season (or any season where Tottenham do better) other than United under-perfoming and Tottenham over-performing.
 
I think this is the key point for me. Glaston obviously likes to get carried away about Spurs but the gap was just 4 points. And that's with United having one of their worst seasons under a lame-duck manager and Spurs supposedly having their best PL season. And United actually won a major trophy, something Spurs haven't managed in over 20 years.

To paint some picture of doom and gloom for United whilst being completely at ease with the situation of Spurs just doesn't tally with reality. Going by the league table and the ability to amass points, there's a hair's breadth between the sides. Going by ability to win trophies, United have an edge - success breeds success etc.

And that's without even considering any of the business done this summer (or lack thereof).

Yeah can't understand the picture of all doom and gloom when it comes to United when it was just 4 points behind Spurs and 5 points behind arsenal. We have made lot of moves to address that already.

Jose, Shaw coming back, signing CB, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan and about to sign one more midfielder.

Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.

You're being too kind with this. United, City saw their former coaches as not good enough and they replaced them. Better coaches can make up that gap easily. Then both City and United are looking to significantly improve their squads with signings. So both teams already changed from last season. So the brutal truth is Mourinho and Pep may already set their eyes on title challenge and last year might as well as be binned in the history trash can. (Mourinho keeps telling fans to forget about past 3 years, even in his first interview as United manager. Pep talked about titles in his unveiling show)

I think Spurs were better than us last season.
 
Yeah can't understand the picture of all doom and gloom when it comes to United when it was just 4 points behind Spurs and 5 points behind arsenal. We have made lot of moves to address that already.

Jose, Shaw coming back, signing CB, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan and about to sign one more midfielder.

Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.



I think Spurs were better than us last season.
Missed my point. Everyone can see that, hence the change in management and the investment in improving the squad. City too.

Point is both Mourinho and Pep already see past catching up to Tottenham phase. They are talking about the title. Both clubs look at this moment and the near future.
 
Missed my point. Everyone can see that, hence the change in management and the investment in improving the squad. City too.

Point is both Mourinho and Pep already see past catching up to Tottenham phase. They are talking about the title. Both clubs look at this moment and the near future.

That's the point I made that spurs were better and we done lot to address that.
 
Yeah can't understand the picture of all doom and gloom when it comes to United when it was just 4 points behind Spurs and 5 points behind arsenal. We have made lot of moves to address that already.

Jose, Shaw coming back, signing CB, Mkhitaryan, Zlatan and about to sign one more midfielder.

Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.



I think Spurs were better than us last season.

United have the second youngest side in the league anyway, so not sure why that's a huge advantage for Spurs in any case.

Of course the key is to blend it with experience to get you over the line, something we definitely lacked last season, and Spurs too.

You're Tottenham. We're United...

Did you think this would be more funny second time round?
 
I have no idea why you have included United in that list. Mourinho hasn't just fallen off the tree. Yes the style of play may be a bit different but Mourinho knows the league the best of all the managers (teams) you mentioned and would not have the worry of adjusting to the "fast paced league". He won it a season ago ffs.
He said 'New Signings', not Managers, need to adjust.
 
United have the second youngest side in the league anyway, so not sure why that's a huge advantage for Spurs in any case.

Of course the key is to blend it with experience to get you over the line, something we definitely lacked last season, and Spurs

This is the point that is missed always. Even ManUtd have got young squad and excellent young players.
 
Also there is sort of FMesque theory that all the young players improve next year. There are 100s of examples where young players failed to build on their first year.
Usually these are youngsters who weren't very good in the first place.
How many youngsters who've played a big part in a top four finish have failed to build and become better?

Just 20 names would do.

You also better go on to the Martial thread and remind everyone that this isn't Football Manager and he may end up alongside those 100s of young players.
And Shaw's thread.
 
Usually these are youngsters who weren't very good in the first place.
How many youngsters who've played a big part in a top four finish have failed to build and become better?

Just 20 names would do.

You also better go on to the Martial thread and remind everyone that this isn't Football Manager and he may end up alongside those 100s of young players.
And Shaw's thread.

And how do you know youngsters weren't good enough? Yes once they failed to step up. I didn't say youngsters don't progress but it's hard to believe all youngsters progress.

Few of the names from top of my head
Balotelli- played part in Inter winning treble.
Stanton - compared with Maldini after his first season.
Januzaj
Welbeck
Wilshere
Rafael
Bojan
Shaqiri
Babel
Insua
Anderson
Gago
Canales
Sterling
Jenas
Wright phillips

And there are many.
 
And how do you know youngsters weren't good enough? Yes once they failed to step up. I didn't say youngsters don't progress but it's hard to believe all youngsters progress.

Few of the names from top of my head
Balotelli- played part in Inter winning treble.
Stanton - compared with Maldini after his first season.
Januzaj
Welbeck
Wilshere
Rafael
Bojan
Shaqiri
Babel
Insua
Anderson
Gago
Canales
Sterling
Jenas
Wright phillips

And there are many.
Did anyone even say that all youngsters progress?
Tottenham fans have mentioned that they have a young squad/first eleven (the youngest in the league) that should improve as a unit after a year of playing together and without too many personnel changes.
Hardly a crazy statement, and hardly suggesting that ALL youngsters progress.

Half of that list were never that good. The Tottenham players have achieved more in this one year than the vast majority of those listed players. I wanted a list of players who have actually displayed their talent (through league place or good numbers in a strong league) not a list of over-hyped kids.

If you're going to bring up the FM argument, then you should also do it in the Martial and Shaw threads, where people are getting giddy about them improving next season.
 
Did anyone even say that all youngsters progress?
Tottenham fans have mentioned that they have a young squad/first eleven (the youngest in the league) that should improve as a unit after a year of playing together and without too many personnel changes.
Hardly a crazy statement, and hardly suggesting that ALL youngsters progress.

Half of that list were never that good. The Tottenham players have achieved more in this one year than the vast majority of those listed players. I wanted a list of players who have actually displayed their talent (through league place or good numbers in a strong league) not a list of over-hyped kids.

If you're going to bring up the FM argument, then you should also do it in the Martial and Shaw threads, where people are getting giddy about them improving next season.

Read spurs fan posts which said spurs have more number of youngsters so they will improve more, what does that mean? Banking on youngsters progression.

No one called crazy statement. Looks like you are strong with yourself here.

Half of the list was never that good? If next season Alli fails then in years time you'll repeat same thing, he wasn't good enough in the first place.

Players like Balotelli, Santon, welbeck, wilshere, Rafael, Anderson, sterling, gago, Jenas all played key roles for their teams. Easy to say they weren't good enough now.
 
Usually these are youngsters who weren't very good in the first place.
How many youngsters who've played a big part in a top four finish have failed to build and become better?

Just 20 names would do.

You also better go on to the Martial thread and remind everyone that this isn't Football Manager and he may end up alongside those 100s of young players.
And Shaw's thread.
Cut age: 24. Failed to build and become better: stagnated in their development (not necessarily turned shit in every case) at this time (if they still young at this moment who may improve in the future). Important role in top 4 season: 30+ apps per season in all competition. League: PL

1. Nasri
2. Micah Richards (previously first choice RB before Zabeletta)
3. Adam Johnson (at Man City)
4. Nastasic (highly rated as next big thing. Hasn't progressed to his early promise)
5. Theo Walcott
6. Ox Chamberlain
7. Flamini (was excellent before his switch to AC Milan)
8. Woodgate (a healthy season when he's around 20 years old he made over 30 appearance for Leeds)
9. Wayne Bridge (was important member of Ranieri's Chelsea before 24 of age, but Mourinho found the need to upgrade left back)
10. Obi Mikel (for many years having 30+ appearance for Chelsea and played huge role in some decisive games. Seem never progress a bit)
11. Anderson (made near 40 apps in his first 2 seasons and held a starting position in the team in later stage of these 2 years)
12. Oscar
13. Phil Jones (over 40 apps in his first season for United. In Moyes season (2 years later), where he was less injured and made 30+ he didn't show any improvement
14. Danny Welbeck (had many apps for 3 years running before got this Arsenal injury plague)
15. Jordan Henderson
16. Adebayor (had one profiling season then few average seasons. The rest was shit)
17. Alex Song (instrumental defensive for Arsenal for couple seasons, but never kicked on the next level and had regressed since the Barcelona move)
18. Kieran Gibbs (was starter but eventually got dis placed by Montreal)
19. Ballotelli (City)
20. Sterling
 
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@ti vu You shouldn't try to pad your list. Some are debatable some are just plain wrong (Woodgate - who's career was curtained by injury and certainly not a lack of skill, he was great for Real when fit - and Flamini), for some injury has sidetracked their careers (whether they will come back is another question; Henderson, Walcott) and in other cases it is far too early to call it (Oscar, Sterling). However what is clear is that to say "Failed to build and become better' or "stagnated in their development" is clearly wrong or obfuscating the truth, for a number of those on your list. There's also a difference between carving out a good career as a decent pro and becoming a star. I'm not sure even half of those were considered star-material.
 
@ti vu You shouldn't try to pad your list. Some are debatable some are just plain wrong (Woodgate - who's career was curtained by injury and certainly not a lack of skill, he was great for Real when fit - and Flamini), for some injury has sidetracked their careers (whether they will come back is another question; Henderson, Walcott) and in other cases it is far too early to call it (Oscar, Sterling). However what is clear is that to say "Failed to build and become better' is clearly wrong or obfuscating the truth, for a number of those on your list. There's also a difference between carving out a good career as a decent pro and becoming a star. I'm not sure even half of those were considered star-material.
I already put out condition, even added up to this time. Injury or not, that's part of football. Some great players got injured and stagnated, in worse case, they never be the same. What can guarantee that Tottenham players would stay healthy this coming season?

The discussion was about some people have in their mind that Tottenham young players can keep a linear improvement trend into this season and improve their team. No we didn't discuss star quality or decent quality. The topic is young potential players' development. Not many Tottenham young players are star material. The discussion is about their immediate improvement this year which may affect their team final position. If for any reasons, they stagnate and can't contribute, then the list I gave is sufficient enough. (I can always add more. There is no shortage of these examples).
 
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Not many Tottenham young players are star material.
That's very difficult to quantify. Who would have said Mahrez or Payet were star material a couple of seasons ago or even Vardy playing in Non-league football (note : 'star material' in a non-definable term)? Certainly they have a few, as do most teams near the top of the PL table.
 
More importantly though, when will the financial chickens come home to roost?
 
That's very difficult to quantify. Who would have said Mahrez or Payet were star material a couple of seasons ago or even Vardy playing in Non-league football (note : 'star material' in a non-definable term)? Certainly they have a few, as do most teams near the top of the PL table.
Hence I did not discuss star material in my original post, did I? Only listed young players who played big role in their team top 4 season, whom for different reasons, stagnated as for the challenge.

The point is: there is no guarantee young players may improve immediate after their break through seasons. So using the player's age as reason to indicate team's improvement is wrong. It can go both ways with young players' development.
 
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Dier had experience playing as a DM at Sporting Lisbon before he even came to Spurs. And even if he began his footballing life as defender and can fill in as such when needed, so what? Bale began as a left back, but look at his role(s) now.

Your rigid pigeon-holing doesn't fit with reality.
It's not so much 'pigeon holing' as discussing how Dier might fare in European football, which is fair enough, isn't it? If you feel confident about him against the best CL teams, that's fine of course, but it's not unreasonable to note Dier has limitations and that he doesn't come across as a DM that will be comfortable in European football, as a lot of British DMs before him. And I actually like and rate Dier, just think at the moment his limitations will be apparent in that competition. Could progress of course.
 
Alli was just as good as Martial last season.
Kane is in the top 3 strikers in the league. Januzaj is around Lamela's level of potential/promise.

People rave about United's youngster and label them star material, when Tottenham arguably have a better bunch.

That is simply not true.
 
2 = many... okay
Not particularly bothered whether it's many or not. Just interesting how easily dismissed Tottenham's youngsters are. When they're every bit as good as United's.
 
That is simply not true.
He was, and it's mostly United bias that prevents you from seeing it.
Whether he's as good as martial or not, he performed just as well last season in the Premier League. Almost identical goal records, and just as many moments of magic.
 
He was, and it's mostly United bias that prevents you from seeing it.
Whether he's as good as martial or not, he performed just as well last season in the Premier League. Almost identical goal records, and just as many moments of magic.

Who do you support out of interest?

Holding an opinion that Martial performed to a higher standard than Alli is not bias. It's just an opinion. Remember Martial basically won United the FA Cup with his semi final performance too.

He was recently named the most valuable young player in the world by soccerex. Are they also biased?
 
Not particularly bothered whether it's many or not. Just interesting how easily dismissed Tottenham's youngsters are. When they're every bit as good as United's.
Not bothered talking about United youngster either as they can easily become overrated after few bad games by the standard here. Not like everyone is happy with the over-reliance on the like of Martial and Rashford.

My original point: young players development can go both ways in early days. Relying on their progression as team's quality is less than ideal. That goes for all the clubs not specifying any clubs.
 
Not bothered talking about United youngster either as they can easily become overrated after few bad games by the standard here.
Fair enough. And I agree.
 
Who do you support out of interest?

Holding an opinion that Martial performed to a higher standard than Alli is not bias. It's just an opinion. Remember Martial basically won United the FA Cup with his semi final performance too.

He was recently named the most valuable young player in the world by soccerex. Are they also biased?
United fan.

https://www.thepfa.com/thepfa/pfaawards/mens-pfa-young-player-of-the-year-dele-alli-2016
According to this, Dele Alli is/was the most valuable teenager in Europe.
I don't have too much idea what goes into the calculation of those things.
Maybe it's inaccurate, or maybe it's changed since.

I think most neutrals would have both Alli and Martial as two of the standout young performers last season, and there would be very very little in it either way (and I actually feel I'm being kind on Martial, as I think Alli is considered by the majority to have been more impressive last season.)
On a Tottenham forum, they'd say Alli was better in the league last season; on a United forum, they'd say Martial.

I'm speculating here, but most United fans wouldn't even entertain the idea that Alli was as good as (not even better than) Martial last season in the league. I feel that is a biased opinion (which is natural).
 
United fan.

https://www.thepfa.com/thepfa/pfaawards/mens-pfa-young-player-of-the-year-dele-alli-2016
According to this, Dele Alli is/was the most valuable teenager in Europe.
I don't have too much idea what goes into the calculation of those things.
Maybe it's inaccurate, or maybe it's changed since.

I think most neutrals would have both Alli and Martial as two of the standout young performers last season, and there would be very very little in it either way. On a Tottenham forum, they'd say Alli was better in the league last season; on a United forum, they'd say Martial.

I'm speculating here, but most United fans wouldn't even entertain the idea that Alli was as good as (not even better than) Martial last season in the league.I feel that is a biased opinion (which is natural).

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...most-valuable-u21-according-to-soccerex-study

This is from last week. Clearly biased though right?

Or maybe they're just expressing an entirely fair opinion which would be shared by many people regardless of their affiliation.

Or do we need to call out any opinion which favours a United player as biased?

Not to blow your cover but your posting history is a trainwreck if you're a United fan. Feel free to come out of the closet. You're safe here.
 
http://www.skysports.com/football/n...most-valuable-u21-according-to-soccerex-study

This is from last week. Clearly biased though right?

Or maybe they're just expressing an entirely fair opinion which would be shared by many people regardless of their affiliation.

Or do we need to call out any opinion which favours a United player as biased?

Not to blow your cover but your posting history is a trainwreck if you're a United fan. Feel free to come out of the closet. You're safe here.
Like I said, we don't know how what goes into this calculations. It doesn't mean Martial had a better 2015-16 than Alli, just like Hazard (most likely) being higher valued than Kane doesn't.

The general opinion is that Martial is a bigger talent (which makes sense, taking into account their history within youth football and current respective clubs and transfer fees etc.) but that has little to do with whether Martial outperformed Alli last season. So your question about whether that valuation is biased or not is rather irrelevant.

My posting history is there for anyone who cares to look at it. I find many United fans quite annoying in their arrogance these days - that's all.
And I'm definitely not as bothered about the success of the club anymore.
 
Missed my point. Everyone can see that, hence the change in management and the investment in improving the squad. City too.

Point is both Mourinho and Pep already see past catching up to Tottenham phase. They are talking about the title. Both clubs look at this moment and the near future.

Talk is cheap. United have something of a mish-mash squad, put together by 4 different managers, and now with yet another new manager's playing style to adapt to. You can continue to spend vast sums of money and sign big names, but it won't necessarily prevail over a much more settled, cohesive and well-balanced Spurs team, a team in which everyone knows their role inside out and the way that Poch wants them to play.

The same applies to City, albeit to a lesser extent. And then there's the fact that Pep is new to the Prem.
 
The same applies to City, albeit to a lesser extent. And then there's the fact that Pep is new to the Prem.
Slightly off topic, but I'd argue getting used to Pep's style is probably harder than getting to used to Jose's style, from the players' point of view. Jose isn't a micromanaging overthinker. His teams tend to play a fairly straightforward style.

I can see the players adapting to Mourinho pretty quick. There's actually not been as many changes in the playing staff as perhaps I expected, though there's still a chunk of the transfer window to go I guess...
 
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