No you're right, sorry. Every team will be terrified of the great Spurs who haven't won a significant trophy in decades.
The Spurs thread | 2016-2017 season | Serious thread - wummers/derailers will be threadbanned
- Thread starter baanke laal
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No you're right, sorry. Every team will be terrified of the great Spurs who haven't won a significant trophy in decades.
Sigh
Indeed.
I will answer his question though. Teams that won't give a sh*t about Spurs or their first 11 next season because they have bigger fish to fry:
Arsenal
Chelsea
Liverpool
Man City
Man Utd
It's such a stupid, biased, delusional claim to make. How on earth would he know that everyone will fear Spurs 'best 11' next season?
Ridiculous.
I doubt that very much. City in particular got beaten home and away by Spurs last season, with a 6 - 2 aggregate score-line. And I'm sure United will remember getting taken apart by Spurs at WHL.
What's ridiculous - and frankly destructive of reasonable discussion - is your twisted translation of what I said into "everyone will fear Spurs best XI".
What I actually said is that no Prem team will feel confident of beating our first XI in any given game, which is very different thing.
Who has said anyone/everyone will fear Spurs next season? I believe the original claim was about teams that will feel confident of beating Spurs in league matches next season. And it's far from a stupid question, given how said teams performed against Spurs last season.
In terms of giving a shit about Spurs next season...
Arsenal - It's a derby. Of course they'll give a shit.
Chelsea - See above
Liverpool - What bigger fish are you referring to? The non-existent European competition they're playing in?? Surely they'll be at least somewhat concerned with a team they've consistently finished behind the past 7 seasons or so.
City - lost twice to Spurs in the league last season. Imagine they'd want to rectify that, hence giving a shit.
United - finished behind Spurs last season. Cant imagine they'd want to do that again...hence will probably give a shit in their two league match ups this coming season.
I realize I shouldn't have even taken the time to reply because obvious troll is obvious, but sometimes you just can't help it.
The Tottenham fans actually aren't talking rubbish. It just that many United fans are struggling with the fact the team has performed horribly for the past three seasons.
There's a reasonable enough chance that Tottenham will finish above (or extremely close to) United next season. Under Sir Alex, United fans could be almost certain of finishing above Tottenham. But not anymore, which is why people are a bit tetchy when Tottenham's prospects are discussed.
Essentially, there's a slightly arrogant feeling that Tottenham don't 'deserve' to be in United's company. How dare Tottenham fans be optimistic or even believe they'll finish above the mighty United?!
Fans of all clubs claim they want a competitive league, but actually fans of top clubs would love the same top four every season.
Leicester (for example) are only tolerated on here because fans of top clubs find them cute as a one-off, but let the challenge two or three more times, and suddenly the feeling towards them would soon change.
There's a reasonable enough chance that Tottenham will finish above (or extremely close to) United next season. Under Sir Alex, United fans could be almost certain of finishing above Tottenham. But not anymore, which is why people are a bit tetchy when Tottenham's prospects are discussed.
Essentially, there's a slightly arrogant feeling that Tottenham don't 'deserve' to be in United's company. How dare Tottenham fans be optimistic or even believe they'll finish above the mighty United?!
Fans of all clubs claim they want a competitive league, but actually fans of top clubs would love the same top four every season.
Leicester (for example) are only tolerated on here because fans of top clubs find them cute as a one-off, but let the challenge two or three more times, and suddenly the feeling towards them would soon change.
It could just as easily be argued that some Spurs players performed above their level last season and they may not do so again. It happens. At the moment the teams expecting to challenge for the title won't fear Spurs and Spurs won't fear them.
Spurs have a very good first XI, so do us, City, Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea and Leicester. The big factor last season was that everyone except Spurs and Leicester rarely had their full strength team available. All part of the game but it had a significant impact on Spurs (and Leicester's) fortunes.
The spurs first 11 isn't good enough or doesn't have enough potential for the to stay pat and hope the youngsters improve further. This is a missed opportunity by them as all the other top clubs are scrambling around to fix the mistakes of the past. The landscape is going to be totally different in the season considering the quality of managers and the quality of players that are being brought in by the top clubs. This isn't Pellegrini and Van Gaal anymore. This is Jose and Pep at the helm of the financial juggernauts and not to mention chelsea's acquisition of a serial winner.
Another thing is in europe they are going to run into proper top class sides and these sides are going to teach them a lesson or two if they go in with their current sides. Going against Europe's big 3 with a defender in midfield just won't work out. In the prem, where space isn't that much of a premium its tolerable but they are going to get a rude awakening at this rate.
Amazed spurs fans seem to tolerate what their club has done during the off season. Its a recipe to return back to 5-7 place in the log when they should have huge ambitions for the coming season. Infact, their lack of ambition is frankly disturbing.
Another thing is in europe they are going to run into proper top class sides and these sides are going to teach them a lesson or two if they go in with their current sides. Going against Europe's big 3 with a defender in midfield just won't work out. In the prem, where space isn't that much of a premium its tolerable but they are going to get a rude awakening at this rate.
Amazed spurs fans seem to tolerate what their club has done during the off season. Its a recipe to return back to 5-7 place in the log when they should have huge ambitions for the coming season. Infact, their lack of ambition is frankly disturbing.
This I object too, in what world do those teams have very good first 11's? Its rather easy to pick holes in all those teams. Arsenal are a midfielder, and a striker light. Not to mention they have the glacially slow mert as a starter at the back. Do they even know what their first 11 is supposed to be?
We are rebuilding the whole side at this rate. Our midfield is either filled with old players who are always injured, or players who have under performed. In attack I reckon we'll be fine. In defence, our starting right back hasn't pulled any trees but I'm expecting him to improve under new management.
City don't have a midfield, they have an attack that relies a lot on injury prone players. They have a defence that's proven a mess for the past few seasons.
Now liverpool are in full transition mode and have done nothing this transfer window that shows that they're taking themselves seriously.
Chelsea is short In all departments.
Leicester have lost one of their class players. They still have a lot of substandard players starting for them.
Spurs have a center back in midfield, and in general are a team filled with good but not great players.
People literally boast about how Tottenham can't attract top players, and then a few posts later criticize Tottenham for a lack of ambition/not signing better players.
Same as for Liverpool.
Same as for Liverpool.
It's like Arsene Wenger every summer, if the expectation is 4th, I supposed Spurs doesn't need improvement but to challenge the league it'll be a different story. If they think they don't need anymore improvement, have a look at their left back Rose. Do Spurs think he's actually good enough as a left back? The fact that Spurs didn't win the league last season when they had the chance means they still need an improvement in their starting eleven. Eriksen, Alli, Lamela need more consistency if Spurs wants to challenge the league.
Rose was voted the best LB in the league last season by his fellow professionals. I think I'll take their assessment over yours.
Dier is now a DM first and foremost. He was excellent in that role last season - better than anyone United has in that position. The fact that he can also play as a CB or RB is besides the point - for Spurs that's just a bonus availability if need be.
Is Njie being sold or loaned to Marseille?
How do you know this though? You say it as if it's a fact. It isn't.
So Rose is good enough in your view? I guess Spurs's expectation of their left back isn't as high as I thought. I wonder if Rose will still be in England squad if Shaw and Baines didn't get their injury last season.
Alright I'll leave it there.
What does our DM have to do with anything?
He's a defender being played as a DM. IMO His lack of ability on the ball will be exposed in europe.
Do you have as big of a problem with people who say things like "Chelsea will take a huge step forward with Conte" or "City will be infinitely better under Pep" or "United will be a significantly better team with Mourinho" as if these claims are somehow fact?
In fact, the main difference I see between those claims and the claim that teams won't feel confident they can beat Spurs is that the latter is based on actual proven results from a season ago. Spurs played 10 league matches against the 5 teams mentioned and lost only 1. That's a fact. Not a theory or prediction. Why is it such a controversial statement to say that those same teams that only combined to beat Spurs once won't feel confident in beating Spurs this coming season? As I mentioned previously, top teams generally feel they should win every game. But outside of that one argument I fail to see why this is some totally outlandish statement that has been made.
It might not be fact, nobody is inside the heads of players and managers. But it is certainly a valid and well-reasoned claim based on actual, tangible results and performances from a season ago.
Essentially...
You're a Tottenham fan, and you should know your place.
United have a divine right to be at the top. And, along with the other 'big' clubs, should have a monopoly on optimism for each upcoming season.
By being optimistic you are challenging/threatening United's superiority, which should be set in stone (but hasn't been for the last few seasons)
Only the 'big' clubs should be top four. How dare you even think about entering the top four. We can applaud the recent efforts of Tottenham and Leicester out of pity. But you better know that it's not happening again.
Yeah thanks for that reminder. How could I be so silly? I really should know better. Pretty much a waste of time trying to defy the facts you've pointed out.
I talk about now.
Dier can play CB and DM.....he has played as DM for Sporting and several England youth teams before he has arrived at Tottenham.
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Dier had experience playing as a DM at Sporting Lisbon before he even came to Spurs. And even if he began his footballing life as defender and can fill in as such when needed, so what? Bale began as a left back, but look at his role(s) now.
Your rigid pigeon-holing doesn't fit with reality.
I think a lot of the 'Spurs isn't going to be good enough to keep that same level as last season' sentiment is the fact that, all their players played blinders yet still wasn't able to run away with the league or pull far ahead of its rivals. Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, City were absolutely below their standards and played poorly yet still were able to compete there or abouts.
Spurs will need to compete and keep that high level every 90 mins for every league game now that teams will wise up to their threat. What's the chance they will do that, be expected to win/dominate games, compete in deep cup runs and/or possibly improve with the limited signings they've made?
Now what's the chance that Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal and City have another poor season and won't improve?
It's all guesswork but my educated guess is that Spurs will do VERY well to get top 4 and I'll be massively surprised if they are able to repeat their performances i.e out run, out score, dominate games etc etc as easily as they did last season.
Disclaimer: I really like Poch and the Spurs playing style.
Spurs will need to compete and keep that high level every 90 mins for every league game now that teams will wise up to their threat. What's the chance they will do that, be expected to win/dominate games, compete in deep cup runs and/or possibly improve with the limited signings they've made?
Now what's the chance that Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal and City have another poor season and won't improve?
It's all guesswork but my educated guess is that Spurs will do VERY well to get top 4 and I'll be massively surprised if they are able to repeat their performances i.e out run, out score, dominate games etc etc as easily as they did last season.
Disclaimer: I really like Poch and the Spurs playing style.
As I've said, Rose is more than good enough - in the fact the best LB in the league last season - in the eyes of his fellow professionals. What value has your dismissal balanced against that? Virtually none I'd say.
In essence you're suggesting that Spurs players over-performed last season, whilst those of United, City and Arsenal all under-performed (I'm not sure why you are even mentioning Liverpool, since they've finished below Spurs for many seasons past now bar once). Well, it's a convenient theory ... convenient that is, for the supporters of United and City in particular.
However, what if the performance of Spurs players generally was actually the level they've reached now - not "over-performance", but just par for where they now are? And what if this "par performance" - being young n' all - goes up a notch or two next season? And what if United and City did not underperform? What if they had declined and their performance levels were just par for what they'd become?
These are questions to ponder IMO, rather than just blithely assuming it's all down to a nebulous "under" or "over" performance.
I'd say that the only team that clearly under-performed is Chelski - because a drop of 9 league places is too large to explain away otherwise.
Im an Arsenal fan and I understand the North London rivalry and everything but nonetheless I believe they'll be right up there challenging once again next season.
They have a young talented squad that have had experience last season of playing together, a fantastic hungry young manager in Pochetino and have made some smart acquisitions in the transfer window.
What I think gives them an advantage over the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United is their cohesiveness in style of play and stability in the squad whereas contrastingly the other top teams barring Arsenal have to adapt to their new managers systems and tactics alongside new signings needing that settling down period to adjust to the fast paced Premier League.
Recently Ive Seen and heard many football fans writing Tottenham off for the upcoming campaign but I think they'll surprise everybody and be fully in contention for the league.
They have a young talented squad that have had experience last season of playing together, a fantastic hungry young manager in Pochetino and have made some smart acquisitions in the transfer window.
What I think gives them an advantage over the likes of City, Liverpool, Chelsea and United is their cohesiveness in style of play and stability in the squad whereas contrastingly the other top teams barring Arsenal have to adapt to their new managers systems and tactics alongside new signings needing that settling down period to adjust to the fast paced Premier League.
Recently Ive Seen and heard many football fans writing Tottenham off for the upcoming campaign but I think they'll surprise everybody and be fully in contention for the league.
Both Spurs and Arsenal outbottled eachother last season and won't get a better chance at the title in the foreseeable future. With that said, I like Spurs under Poch and hope they do well next season too, except against us of course. The NLD is my favourite neutral derby and I hope Spurs will finally come out on top out, league position wise, of the two next season. Losing against a already relegated Newcastle with 2nd place still up for grabs was quite frankly comical. Quite the big score too, wasn't it?
Well we can just agree and disagree there. If you think he's a top class left back based on pfa team of the season OK then. But my assessment is that his level as a left back is only a backup option for top club level and not a first choice and I only made a suggestion that Spurs can make an improvement on that position.
It might also be based on watching him play week in, week out. Just a guess.
I get what you're saying, but in many ways Rose is the easy one to pick on in Spurs' starting 11 because in seasons past he probably has been the weakest link. That said, he took, in my view and the view of other Spurs fans, a massive step forward last season. The pace and width he brings are vital in Poch's system. But it was defensively where he made the greatest strides, specifically his positioning and awareness. He's by no means perfect of course, he needs to improve his final ball and continue his consistency as a defender, but overall he had a very good season and is developing into a solid player and an important one with the way Spurs play.
The other issue is finding a replacement that is clearly better, which is really where the problem arises when you talk about improving on a player we've seen develop positively under Pochettino. I struggle to think of an attainable LB for Spurs that is clearly better than Rose. Of course you'd probably take a healthy Shaw ahead of him, but a healthy Shaw has been a rarity in recent times. Not to mention the whole attainable thing. Who else is a clear step up that Spurs could realistically sign? The other fact is that we have good competition at the position. Ben Davies is a solid player and you hope that competition continues to help both he and Rose grow as players and become even more consistent performers with more training time under Poch.
In short, he's not a world class player by any stretch, but don't discount just how much he developed as a complete fullback last season
Spurs has always been a charming club. More entertainment then results but easy to like.
Last season was different. Suddenly they started to win difficult matches and there where moments when I thought they could go all the way. But in the end they where the normal Tottenham I used to know.
This season they will probably continue grinding out results. The difference is that other top teams will probably do the same. Playing in the CL will make it more difficult. Can't see them win the league. Thin squad and I think Harry Kane and Mohammad Ali will receive rougher threatment this time.
Wasn't it for Glaston I would probably continue to like them as a charming team but now I want them to lose. Weird.
Last season was different. Suddenly they started to win difficult matches and there where moments when I thought they could go all the way. But in the end they where the normal Tottenham I used to know.
This season they will probably continue grinding out results. The difference is that other top teams will probably do the same. Playing in the CL will make it more difficult. Can't see them win the league. Thin squad and I think Harry Kane and Mohammad Ali will receive rougher threatment this time.
Wasn't it for Glaston I would probably continue to like them as a charming team but now I want them to lose. Weird.
Rose and Ben Davies were rotated last season which is leading my question if he's even good enough for first choice.
A few left back that Spurs could sign for example Digne might choose Spurs ahead of Barca due to first team choice football instead of being 2nd choice of Alba. Hector can be an upgrade as well.
I'm just pointing out position where Spurs can make an improvement if they want to go forward and challenge the league. A left back and more first choice competition for your trio attacking mid (Eriksen, Alli, Lamela) like Sane, Dembele, and Gotze were available and can strengthen Spurs starting eleven.
Again I'm not sure the players you mention meet both criteria (clearly better than Rose and attainable for Spurs).
As much as I love to think players would choose Spurs over Barca for guaranteed first team football, I'm not sure that's reality. Not to mention nobody is guaranteed first team football under Pochettino. It's all about how you train, and he takes that quite seriously.
As far as Hector, I think he's a good player. Is he clearly better than last season's Rose? Again, not so sure. He's 26 and has made something like 120 appearances for Cologne. If he's really that spectacular, why hasn't he moved to a bigger club in the Bundesliga? Even you admit he "can" be an upgrade, which also implies he might not be. There's also something to be said for consistency and cohesion in a starting 11. Keeping Rose allows that to remain intact and even build.
Now, in terms of the other you mention. With Sane, Spurs are never going to pay the kind of money on a player it would take to get him. So, not attainable. Id love to have him, but it's not reality.
Gotze always seemed to want to return to Dortmund so, again, was he ever a realistic option? Dembele (assuming you mean Ousmane) I'll give you. Would've been a fantastic signing and in line with our overall transfer philosophy, though not sure he would've walked into our starting 11. Maybe eventually gotten there, but not straight away.
We're on the verge of signing N'Koudou and while I don't watch a ton of Marseille matches he is the type of player that fits with our transfer strategy and a player im excited to see work under Poch and potentially develop into a high impact sub or occasional starter as soon as this season.
So, in short, Spurs are working to make the squad better. And I believe signings like Wanyama and Janssen do just that. But improving a starting 11 that had a very good season last year is tougher to do considering the overall very positive performances of the players in that 11 and the financial restrictions Spurs typically operate under.
Your way of thinking is similar to Wenger.
If your club has an ambition, getting all of these players are not impossible, money talks. If Spurs aim is just 4th place trophy and happy with it and not challenging the league, Spurs has made good signing this summer. I'm not saying you can't win the league with current squad, anything is possible but surely there is an aim or expectation.
It's not my way of thinking, it's just the reality of the situation under which the club operates (not to mention "having ambition" is not at all the same thing as spending huge money on transfers) Not every team has owners that embrace the "money talks" philosophy and are willing to spend millions and millions on transfer fees and accept a net loss year after year. Spurs, whether the fans like it or not, are a club where rule #1 when it comes to operations is "operate within your means". That means abiding by a defined wage structure and not paying exorbitant transfer fees. In today's football landscape it might not be ideal, but it's the harsh reality we must accept as fans. Now, to be fair, the club is making clear and tangible steps at increasing this operating capcity by building a new stadium and empowering a manager that has a clear vision for the on-field future of the club, but developing these things takes time.
It's very easy to say things like "make a splash signing" or "show me the money" or whatever the phrase may be. But, as I've said several times in the last few posts, it's just not reality as things stand today.
Judging by your post, you are accepting the reality that Spurs is like the current Arsenal. Only concern to make money instead of focusing to win the league. Anyway, you are right, your aim is just getting the 4th place trophy and Levy seems happy with that achievement and I think Janssen, Wanyama, and N'koudou are ideal signing for the expectation. Good luck for the season then.
It should be pretty much impossible for anyone to claim Spurs don't have a good first team, you would have to be blind (ignore last season) or extremely biased to claim that.
That said today it is a squad game, most people would be hard pressed to pick their first team because it could vary depending on the opposition, even more so for those clubs involved in Europe where a large squad is a necessity. We saw this was a major issue for both Spurs and Liverpool last season, though Liverpool at least had the excuse of a huge amount of injuries (link 160518.png), even having 11 players out at one time in January (interesting how Chelsea under performed despite having a relatively low number of injuries too), i.e Liverpool 284, United 243, Arsenal 239, City 211, Spurs 149, Chelsea 134, Leicester 77.
These two factors (squad depth and injuries) will be key this season, maybe even more so than previously with such competition in the PL and with Euro games for some. I don't consider Spurs as having great squad depth, I may be wrong the Spurs supporters can enlighten us. I know they are trying to address that.
It would be interesting to see what other people consider their clubs' '2nd team' here. Obviously debatable in many areas but for Liverpool I'd go :
Mignolet, Randall, Klavan, Sakho, Gomez (new LB obviously on the way so maybe Moreno, or the new guy, will drop in here), Henderson, Grujic, Stewart, Lallana, Firmino, Origi, Ings (pick 3 from the last 4 listed). I've ignored players expected to leave i.e. Benteke, Lucas etc.
That's still a damn decent side for a complete 2nd team. Do Spurs have that depth ? They are going to need it this season, as will all the teams fighting for Top 4.
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I have no idea why you have included United in that list. Mourinho hasn't just fallen off the tree. Yes the style of play may be a bit different but Mourinho knows the league the best of all the managers (teams) you mentioned and would not have the worry of adjusting to the "fast paced league". He won it a season ago ffs.
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