The Second RedCafe Sheep Draft

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
The difference is they are enablers and not match winners themselves. Surrounded by good players, they elevate the teams to greatness. Total more than sum of parts and all that. So they'll always be rated below players who turn the match in a moment of magic. The enablers keep the team ticking but the "great" players can coast for 80 mins and still come up with the glory with just a sublime shot. And rightly, so.
Click to expand...
I don't know. Look at the impact that Alonso's return made at Madrid's season, for example. Schweiny had a few brilliant match-winning performances on the highest level not so long ago ;). Not a match-winners of Maradona's (picked and blocked, so no problem with the name?) mould, but very few were, especially as a central midfielders. Was Bozsik a match-winner of did he elevate his team to greatness, for example? I don't think that there is a difference. Yet Viva had Vieira and Desailly as his 7 and 5th pick (I'm not sure is Desailly rated as a CB or as a DM in this rating).
 
antohan said:
The point on Makelele is fair, the other one ludicrous. Different level? Vieira?

I can see Balu rubbing his hands with glee, Mannschaft draft karma may yet see them recover from a poor start in the qualifiers.
Click to expand...
No Schweini no party. He didn't play so far because of his injury, so it's not a lack of great Schweini performances that held the nationalteam back in the first few qualifying games. That being said, with the extension to 24 teams we really can't feck up the qualification for the Euro anyway, no matter how bad we continue to play.
 
Schweinsteiger a mere enabler.. he was fantastic in the world cup final and this was a player who I'd argue is past his peak. Heartbeat of a world cup winning German side (taking into account their era from 2008-2014) taking over from Ballack and of the Bayern side. In both sides, he was easily the leader and standout midfielder at his peak and won everything. Remember.. everyone at the Caf wanted him not so long ago. TBH he was even stealing the show for the Germans as far back as Euro 2004 when he broke through as a trickster on the wing.

 
Last edited:
VivaJanuzaj said:
Can we stop naming unpicked players?
Click to expand...
sorry my bad, got carried away there :( . @antohan could you edit the quote with my fauxpas :nervous:

/edit:
ffs, just realised, this really is naming unpicked midfielders galore here :lol:. shame on us all.
 
Wasn't sure whenever to comment on NM's pick or not - but others did it already. It's unfair to judge his picks now, when he has a few picks to completely change the situation and a balance in his team. The quality is already here (and the quality is frightening). He still can make it work in my eyes, though I'm not sure that he will, he need a few surgical picks here. Not that it would matter - even playing at 60-70% of it's potential his team will probably win their game anyway.
 
Balu said:
Platini and Puskas in a 442 diamond with Pirlo controling the pace of the game from deep in midfield isn't really what I'd call a natural fit. Should be interesting what players NM & Theon have in mind to complete the team.
Click to expand...

3-5-2 with Platini as a 10, Pirlo and Tardelli in front of 3 CB's and then 2 attacking wingbacks and Puskas and a partner (maybe one who provides width at times) sounds good:
 
harms said:
I don't know. Look at the impact that Alonso's return made at Madrid's season, for example. Schweiny had a few brilliant match-winning performances on the highest level not so long ago ;). Not a match-winners of Maradona's (picked and blocked, so no problem with the name?) mould, but very few were, especially as a central midfielders. Was Bozsik a match-winner of did he elevate his team to greatness, for example? I don't think that there is a difference. Yet Viva had Vieira and Desailly as his 7 and 5th pick (I'm not sure is Desailly rated as a CB or as a DM in this rating).
Click to expand...

I wouldn't rate a so-called enabler below a match winner in a balanced, overall good side - in such a side they both have their roles to perform, and that is that.

If there is a a lack of balance, though, as can often be the case with these fantasy sides - then I'd take the match winner every day. Both because that's what would pay off in the real world more often than not - and, not least, as a tactical decision draft wise.
 
NoPace said:
3-5-2 with Platini as a 10, Pirlo and Tardelli in front of 3 CB's and then 2 attacking wingbacks and Puskas and a partner (maybe one who provides width at times) sounds good:
Click to expand...

Don't even go there, man. Not today, at least.
 
NoPace said:
3-5-2 with Platini as a 10, Pirlo and Tardelli in front of 3 CB's and then 2 attacking wingbacks and Puskas and a partner (maybe one who provides width at times) sounds good:
Click to expand...
Pretty sure a 3-5-2 with 11 goats against 11 sheep would lose on the caf today :lol:
 
NoPace said:
3-5-2 with Platini as a 10, Pirlo and Tardelli in front of 3 CB's and then 2 attacking wingbacks and Puskas and a partner (maybe one who provides width at times) sounds good:
Click to expand...
Magic square :wenger:
 
Raees said:
Schweinsteiger a mere enabler.. he was fantastic in the world cup final and this was a player who I'd argue is past his peak. Heartbeat of a world cup winning German squad
Click to expand...

I'd take it as a compliment. The argument was enablers make teams work while the star names take the glory with occasional match-winning contributions. Without enablers the game is long lost when/if these happen.
 
NoPace said:
3-5-2 with Platini as a 10, Pirlo and Tardelli in front of 3 CB's and then 2 attacking wingbacks and Puskas and a partner (maybe one who provides width at times) sounds good:
Click to expand...
Horrible idea, and not because I have any grudge with LVGs philosophy (subject to having the right players).

It simply doesn't get the best out of the two star players.
 
antohan said:
I'd take it as a compliment. The argument was enablers make teams work while the star names take the glory with occasional match-winning contributions. Without enablers the game is long lost when/if these happen.
Click to expand...

Fair enough but I do think Schweinsteiger has alot going for him in terms of drive and attacking ability that someone like Alonso doesn't have. He is a strong dribbler and has a good eye for goal. . comfortable in wide areas too .. element of a classic English midfielder to his game .. like a tactically astute less aggressive .. in that sense.
 
Last edited:
Either I missed a trick here or research for this round is just enormous - if you want to have a look at the whole pool and not just pick from the obvious ones. Hell.
 
Balu said:
And another unpicked midfielder named :lol:
Click to expand...

Something has to be done. I propose setting up a Paypal account and fine anyone who transgresses. The proceeds we can use to finance the prize for the draft winner: A year long "vacation" in New Zealand, where the lucky boy gets to help out as a sheep shearer on a nice, but remotely located farm.
 
harms said:
Either I missed a trick here or research for this round is just enormous - if you want to have a look at the whole pool and not just pick from the obvious ones. Hell.
Click to expand...

I'm struggling with the research too.. Very little time due to weekend committments.
 
That defeat is going to mess with my pick emotionally. Now I want some stars to better my day.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Something has to be done. I propose setting up a Paypal account and fine anyone who transgresses. The proceeds we can use to finance the prize for the draft winner: A year long "vacation" in New Zealand, where the lucky boy gets to help out as a sheep shearer on a nice, but remotely located farm.
Click to expand...

Why NZ, when all the sheep's are right here? :D
 
antohan said:
Platini in Europe used to play deep in a similar role, while also moving up the pitch and being influential in and around the box. Adding Pirlo doesn't add playmaking and creativity, it either costs NM a defender or a player for Platini to ping balls to.

I'm not discussing this any further though. I can still remember how you destroyed that diamond side trying to shoehorn Xavi-Iniesta-Pirlo and AN other as a "creative f.a.pfest".

Horses for courses, and the importance of enablers (as EAP quite accurately puts it), is a discussion we've had several times before and we are clearly never going to agree.
Click to expand...

I've never disagreed with anyone about having hard working players, or 'enablers' if you want to use that term. I'm not sure what discussion you're referring to. This side will need enablers but it's probably best to wait until the drafting is finished before making assessments there.

My diamond side for the final was too overloaded in the middle but I wouldn't say it was weak defensively. In terms of being weak defensively I seem to remember you having a shocker in the World Cup draft trying to stick two strikers, an attackng midfielder, two wingers and a playmaker in the side. I also remember you fielding perhaps the least balanced centre back duo I've ever seen.

But yeah, I've never disagreed with having pragmatism. What I disagreed with just then is that Pirlo and Platini are similar players because that is quite seriously absolute nonsense. They play in completely different positions and if you think anyone would want to use Platini as a #6 then I think you're out of your mind.

Platini roamed deep to pick up the ball but that's about where any similarity with Pirlo ends. He was never disciplined in holding deep as that wasn't his position. If you made an average position heat map he'd be 20 yards ahead of Pirlo, hence why Platini has a goal record of over 1 in 2 whilst Pirlo's is around 1 in 10.
 
Theon said:
I've never disagreed with anyone about having hard working players, or 'enablers' if you want to use that term. I'm not sure what discussion you're referring to.
Click to expand...

Several ones, not using the term "enablers" but how many cooks didn't necessarily work or add to more than the sum of parts.

My diamond side for the final was too overloaded in the middle but I wouldn't say it was weak defensively.
Click to expand...

No, it wasn't, it just missed the point that to win football matches you need to score goals, not hog the ball.

In terms of being weak defensively I seem to remember you having a shocker in the World Cup draft trying to stick two strikers, an attackng midfielder, two wingers and a playmaker in the side. I also remember you fielding perhaps the least balanced centre back duo I've ever seen.
Click to expand...

It was supposed to be a Magyar homage side, it was never meant to be a balanced side but one that replicated a great one, even if it would get shot down in flames by more modern tactics. The only player that wasn't perfect for his role there was the LB but I was shit out of luck trying to get the 2-3 players who would have been better in that role.

The centre-backs, sure, sort of thing that happens with a snake draft with many restrictions. The team wasn't about having the best defensive pair though and I fixed it as soon as I could. This Pirlo picking though isn't snake/restrictions, it's deliberate.

But yeah, I've never disagreed with having pragmatism. What I disagreed with just then is that Pirlo and Platini are similar players because that is quite seriously absolute nonsense. They play in completely different positions and if you think anyone would want to use Platini as a #6 then I think you're out of your mind.

Platini roamed deep to pick up the ball but that's about where any similarity with Pirlo ends. He was never disciplined in holding deep as that wasn't his position. If you made an average position heat map he'd be 20 yards ahead of Pirlo, hence why Platini has a goal record of over 1 in 2 whilst Pirlo's is around 1 in 10.
Click to expand...

I didn't say they were similar, just that anything you need Pirlo for, Platini can do. The point is precisely that you don't want to be playing with a #6, when you occasionally have the need to bring the ball out after being under pressure, Platini will do it. Other than then, you don't need a dedicated player to do that because you want to get the best out of Puskas and Platini and the best way to do it isn't hogging the ball miles away from where they can do the most damage. What little hogging you want to do is to happen at the other end of the pitch, not in front of your CBs. It's a manic idea.
 
@Skizzo You really need to clear the legacy player round quick. As more positions are filled one more player in a position already picked would ruin the whole side, esp as many already have sheep's to bench. No room to play with here.

Hopefully it is the next. Personally I think it should have been before this round, but let's see.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
@Skizzo You really need to clear the legacy player round quick. As more positions are filled one more player in a position already picked would ruin the whole side, esp as many already have sheep's to bench. No room to play with here.

Hopefully it is the next. Personally I think it should have been before this round, but let's see.
Click to expand...

Who said there was a legacy player random allocation round? That's not what that was for. Mwahahaha. :devil:
 
Just so we are clear, I have a couple of sheep pairs, but it isn't very likely they will get used.

Chances are most not getting a pair will have one nailed and the rest of the pool in their year is large enough to produce one of the required level (differently from cards which was quite restrictive).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.