The search for a holding midfielder (Summer 2017 version)

Craig Ward said:
Agree with the logic here, I think we should sign two midfield options for squad depth/rotation.

A solid established, and a young emerging talent. If we sign one midfield option, we'll be signing another next year when Carrick does finally retire.

Nzonzi seems a good option, far cheaper and more mobile than the heavily linked Dier or Matic. Matic to me at 28 and in decline seems like a 40mil stop gap "can do a decent job" signing that will need us to go back in for another CM/DM next summer. Dier would be solid, but would need to put in some excellent performances to silence the doubters.

Best young midfield talents seem to be Keita, Weigl, Reneto Sanches, Diawara or Goretzka.

Isnt Jack Wiltshire available for 9 million? Bit of a wild out there suggestion, but if fit, couldn't he do a job? Admittedly a risk and not expecting all to be in favour, jus throwing it out there..........
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Are Goretzka and Renato actually holding players? I don't recall seeing either of them do much defensive work, so I would've stretched it to b2b types at best, but both appear to do their best work in more advanced areas, so are they not more attack minded cm's?

Either Keita or Weigl would have my votes. Keita more though, beast of a player, and should now be our no 1 target. He is our missing piece in my view. Plus we will have the added bonus of gazumping both Liverpool and Chelsea in the same window! :devil:
 
I think that the biggest issue in our CM is that we’ve got a lot of square pegs whom we’re trying to fit in round holes. The obvious target is of course Fellaini, whom we can’t play as no 10 (we are not Stoke) and he’s extremely average in all remaining roles. However the buck doesn’t stop with him. Pogba is a hugely talented player but he can’t be played as no 10 (he doesn’t score enough goals) and he certainly can’t play as a DM. Another player of that kind that comes into mind is Mata. He’s not good enough as no 10 and he lacks the pace needed to be a winger.

Let’s analyse our current players first. Herrera is a fantastic box to box player who will fit nicely both in a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3 system. Pogba’s best position remains that of the most attacking (Left sided) box to box midfielder. The rest are difficult to fit in a team because they are too young/too old/too shit to be used on a regular basis.

So what do we need? Well it depends. If we want to make the most out of Pogba then we have to go with a 3 men midfield. Pogba will be the most attacking option with Pereira and Mata acting as cover/competition/option for him. Herrera is our uncontested no 1 B2B midfielder. Carrick (whose simply too old to do the running) can cover for him and I’d suggest a young midfielder to shadow them up. I am a big fan of Atalanta’s Melegoni as he can cover both the DM and the B2B role. He’s the Pirlo type of midfielder but unlike Verratti whose around 2 feet tall Melegoni got the inches to develop into a Carrick Mark II if given time and patience.

In DM I’d go for Ndidi. He’s young, he’s strong and he’s quite versatile. If can get rid of Fellaini then it would be nice if we can add a second DM but that’s not going to happen anytime soon.
 
Danilo from Porto maybe? Not sure if he's good enough though, but would certainly be a cheaper option than Dier.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
Danilo from Porto maybe? Not sure if he's good enough though, but would certainly be a cheaper option than Dier.
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If we're fishing on the same market, I would William Carvalho for his slick passing.
 
It is clearly Matic, after Bakayoko (sp) signs for Chelsea.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
Danilo from Porto maybe? Not sure if he's good enough though, but would certainly be a cheaper option than Dier.
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He fits the bill of a CDM and certainly has th heigth required by Mou (1.88m). Judging purely based on the youtube videos of him he seems like a very good tackler, but seems rash at times. He is not highlighted as a player with a good distribution or composure, but that might just be youtube. Anyone who has seen him play in the past season?
 
Marcus said:
It is clearly Matic, after Bakayoko (sp) signs for Chelsea.
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I just don't think we will get him if there is genuine interest from Juve, Inter or even Arsenal after the whole farce with the Lukaku signing. He is definitely on the move this summer, but I don't think Conte want's to strengthen a direct rival (even makes Arsenal transfer difficult).
 
I think this is a major problem if we don't get it sorted.

Herrera and Pogba literally have no one to provide competition or even backup. Herrera in particular does a job that not one other player in the squad can replicate.

Carrick is done (bizarre he's still around, never mind captain), Fellaini does a job but nothing spectacular and that's about it.

Hopefully Pereira can add something to the mix.
 
Minimalist said:
I think this is a major problem if we don't get it sorted.

Herrera and Pogba literally have no one to provide competition or even backup. Herrera in particular does a job that not one other player in the squad can replicate.

Carrick is done (bizarre he's still around, never mind captain), Fellaini does a job but nothing spectacular and that's about it.

Hopefully Pereira can add something to the mix.
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Is he? How do you compute it with the fact most people think we played our best football in December with him at the base of the midfield three?
 
Android1974 said:
Is he? How do you compute it with the fact most people think we played our best football in December with him at the base of the midfield three?
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Yes he's done.

And that's an oddly specific measurement to prove me wrong - pure opinion aside. :lol:
 
I prefer a Fabinho type that can do all of the above well enough. He's very young, pacey, albeit not as much of as a ball winning or defensive stopper as we'd like (but who is all that combined besides Kante?). While he leans into the attacking mode more than a Mourinho type CDM, sticks primarily with the defensive work. Seems to me this type would complement Pogba and Herrera the most, and add more needed energy and dynamism. Of course he can also pinch in at RB given the need.

I don't think Ander can emulate that role, nor should he be given that responsibility. Ander should be the bookend to what Pogba is doing on the left.

In a perfect world, I'd bring in a Fabinho type and ask him to watch every single minute of Kante's campaign.
 
Minimalist said:
Yes he's done.

And that's an oddly specific measurement to prove me wrong - pure opinion aside. :lol:
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Not to prove you wrong. Just to make you think if that fact you so well established in your head is compatible with our best football. Probably isn't.
 
Android1974 said:
Not to prove you wrong. Just to make you think if that fact you so well established in your head is compatible with our best football. Probably isn't.
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Well in my head, our football was fecking dire last season overall. So I'm not quite sure any particular formation was breathtaking stuff.

And to be honest, any of the enjoyable matches I can remember did not include Carrick.
 
apotheosis said:
Are Goretzka and Renato actually holding players? I don't recall seeing either of them do much defensive work, so I would've stretched it to b2b types at best, but both appear to do their best work in more advanced areas, so are they not more attack minded cm's?

Either Keita or Weigl would have my votes. Keita more though, beast of a player, and should now be our no 1 target. He is our missing piece in my view. Plus we will have the added bonus of gazumping both Liverpool and Chelsea in the same window! :devil:
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Agree with you that certainly Goretzka (based on the games I have seen him) plays in a much more advanced role

I also like Weigl and whilst he is certainly different to that makalele type player i could see him a bit like carrick - sitting deep and dictating play

Im just not sure that Jose sees the DM role in that way - certainly not been his typical type DM player and carrick didnt play that much last season so perhaps a matic or similar style player is more realistic?

Anyway with less than a month to the season starting I hope we tie something up soon rather than having a deadline day drama
 
Jkkruse said:
He fits the bill of a CDM and certainly has th heigth required by Mou (1.88m). Judging purely based on the youtube videos of him he seems like a very good tackler, but seems rash at times. He is not highlighted as a player with a good distribution or composure, but that might just be youtube. Anyone who has seen him play in the past season?
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Maybe @broccoli can help us out? :)
 
Minimalist said:
Well in my head, our football was fecking dire last season overall. So I'm not quite sure any particular formation was breathtaking stuff.

And to be honest, any of the enjoyable matches I can remember did not include Carrick.
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Then no wonder you feel that way about Carrick. You see things too much overall.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
Danilo from Porto maybe? Not sure if he's good enough though, but would certainly be a cheaper option than Dier.
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Not sure Dier's good enough tbh, and i know nothing of Danilo, can't say i have ever seen him play.

There do seem to be some pretty good options still out there though:

Keita
Weigl
Fabinho,
Diawara
N'Zonzi

I would take any of those. Though my absolute (not a chance but i can dream) muppet choice would be Arturo Vidal. By far and away my favorite midfielder. What a player! :drool::drool:
 
sun_tzu said:
Agree with you that certainly Goretzka (based on the games I have seen him) plays in a much more advanced role

I also like Weigl and whilst he is certainly different to that makalele type player i could see him a bit like carrick - sitting deep and dictating play

Im just not sure that Jose sees the DM role in that way - certainly not been his typical type DM player and carrick didnt play that much last season so perhaps a matic or similar style player is more realistic?

Anyway with less than a month to the season starting I hope we tie something up soon rather than having a deadline day drama
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This is why im surprised we are not looking at Keita, he can fulfill every role we could possibly need in midfield and would just provide us with an abundance of beneficial attributes. He would also give us a huge variety of options across midfield. I'd take the deadline day drama as long as it's for someone worthwhile like Keita. :drool:
 
Android1974 said:
Is he? How do you compute it with the fact most people think we played our best football in December with him at the base of the midfield three?
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I would compute that with the fact alot of people on here are seriously very biased when it comes down to Carrick along with the fact that our so called best football in december really is seriously overrated and in fact not so good at all.

There is a good reason why Mourinho stopped playing him.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
Maybe @broccoli can help us out? :)
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Danilo is a classic holding mid and he became a fan favorite since the beginning. He doesn't position himself as good as Casimiro, especially in the marking of players but he offers a strong presence and sometimes likes to drive the team forward. His ball playing abilities are average. Not great but not bad either. Also has a very good mindset in giving all on the pitch. Hope it helps.
 
The red panther said:
I would compute that with the fact alot of people on here are seriously very biased when it comes down to Carrick along with the fact that our so called best football in december really is seriously overrated and in fact not so good at all.

There is a good reason why Mourinho stopped playing him.
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Seems there was someone completely out of touch there, then.
 
devilish said:
I think that the biggest issue in our CM is that we’ve got a lot of square pegs whom we’re trying to fit in round holes. The obvious target is of course Fellaini, whom we can’t play as no 10 (we are not Stoke) and he’s extremely average in all remaining roles. However the buck doesn’t stop with him. Pogba is a hugely talented player but he can’t be played as no 10 (he doesn’t score enough goals) and he certainly can’t play as a DM. Another player of that kind that comes into mind is Mata. He’s not good enough as no 10 and he lacks the pace needed to be a winger.
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He's a good 10, he was Player of the year at Chelsea as a 10, got a load of goals for them. He's never going to be Messi or Zidane or Del Piero, but he's a decent 10.
 
Craig Ward said:
Agree with the logic here, I think we should sign two midfield options for squad depth/rotation.

A solid established, and a young emerging talent. If we sign one midfield option, we'll be signing another next year when Carrick does finally retire.

Nzonzi seems a good option, far cheaper and more mobile than the heavily linked Dier or Matic. Matic to me at 28 and in decline seems like a 40mil stop gap "can do a decent job" signing that will need us to go back in for another CM/DM next summer. Dier would be solid, but would need to put in some excellent performances to silence the doubters.

Best young midfield talents seem to be Keita, Weigl, Reneto Sanches, Diawara or Goretzka.

Isnt Jack Wiltshire available for 9 million? Bit of a wild out there suggestion, but if fit, couldn't he do a job? Admittedly a risk and not expecting all to be in favour, jus throwing it out there..........
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Wilshire has talent, but I think Arter is generally agreed to have outplayed him last year in the same position (they play a 4-3-3 so fairly similar jobs between the 2 CMs), so I don't think he'll get a big club move in England this summer.

I'm worried that the club hasn't figured out that even with Pogba, we still need the next Modric/Kroos/Vidal level CM.

If we're hoping the squad is competitive with the best teams in Europe for the next 3-4 years, I'd say we're badly missing a a CM and an RB. I could see Lukaku, Martial, Mkhitaryan, Pogba, Herrera, Shaw, Lindelof, Bailly and De Gea with Rashford, Mata, Valencia and Blind as versatile enough though not outstanding cover. Not a pure CM in that grouping, so another one is needed. Hopefully Pereira, Tuanzebe, Fosu-Mensah, Gomes or another joins them.
 
There's still plenty of options out there, it's just a question of whether or not Jose sees any of them as being suited to his style of play and possessing the right characteristics. The signings he's made so far seem to be based all around that.

We could still go for any one of:

Fabinho
Dier
N'zonzi
Weigl
William Carvalho
Danilo Pereira
Naby Keita
Nainggolan
Seri
Jorginho
Dendoncker
Matuidi
Krychowiak

Not all of them are exactly holding midfielders, but as we know, Herrera could take up that goal if we get someone who is a little more box-to-box minded instead.
 
The most important position to fill going into next season, in my opinion. Could be the difference between us challenging for the title, and not. May sound a little hyperbolic, but i believe it to be the case. While Herrera can play there, i don't think it's his best position. He does a fine job, but it just takes away from the rest of his game. I would like to see him further forward with Pogba.

Carrck is fine, but he's coming off a poor season for me. Last year he started off ok but really struggled for the vast majority of it. Also the issue of his age and he's definitely not going to be playing the majority of games. We're then left with Fellaini. I'm really not a fan. He has his moments, but i don't want to see him anchoring our midfield for the season ahead.

Ergo, a new CDM is of utmost importance. I'm actually a fan of Matic, so wouldn't mind seeing him here. Didn't think he was that bad last year, he was just overshadowed by Kante. Must admit, i don't know a huge amount about Fabinho. Watched him in the champions league and he seems to be really highly rated so i guess he would be a vast improvement. I just really hope Jose can push this one through before our first game.
 
TehRed said:
There's still plenty of options out there, it's just a question of whether or not Jose sees any of them as being suited to his style of play and possessing the right characteristics. The signings he's made so far seem to be based all around that.

We could still go for any one of:

Fabinho
Dier
N'zonzi
Weigl
William Carvalho
Danilo Pereira
Naby Keita
Nainggolan
Seri
Jorginho
Dendoncker
Matuidi
Krychowiak

Not all of them are exactly holding midfielders, but as we know, Herrera could take up that goal if we get someone who is a little more box-to-box minded instead.
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The trouble we have is who have we been scouting? If it is the two or three we have been linked with, then would Jose be happy with someone he has no reports on. We have been linked to a number of the above, the usual speculation from the press, but some he might not have an interest in.
 
Still not solved and I wonder why there is a hold up. One more quality midfielder is crucial imo while Fellaini should be sold (but wont I assume)
 
Escobar said:
Still not solved and I wonder why there is a hold up. One more quality midfielder is crucial imo while Fellaini should be sold (but wont I assume)
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I really don't get this "Fellaini should be sold" thing. He clearly has a lot of uses against some teams, either if we are finding it hard to lock up defenses or if it is because we are holding out for a 1-goal lead with many balls in our own penalty area.
As long as he stays as a back-up I will have no problem with him what so ever. I agree that he should not be a starter here.
 
Jkkruse said:
I really don't get this "Fellaini should be sold" thing. He clearly has a lot of uses against some teams, either if we are finding it hard to lock up defenses or if it is because we are holding out for a 1-goal lead with many balls in our own penalty area.
As long as he stays as a back-up I will have no problem with him what so ever. I agree that he should not be a starter here.
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Do you remember last season? The seasons before? He's just not good enough and just because he has a good game once every 10 games doesn't mean he has a place in the team
 
I'd like Dendoncker - has a huge future. Can't see them letting him go this summer after already losing Tielmans.
 
If Chelsea can sell Matic to Juve, they will because they're not strengthening a direct rival that way. Dier won't be sold unless we pay crazy money, Weigl won't go anywhere this summer and we don't seem at all interested in Fabinho.

I've said for a while that I won't be surprised if we end up sticking with our current midfield. Fellaini, Blind, Carrick and a youth chap or two might have to suffice.

I think that Perisic (if we can get him) will be our only other player in this summer.
 
No journo had a clue about lukaku really. There could well be a surprise here with the profile of perisic or something. Matic interest looks real and im not sure if juve would pay 40m they seem like bargain hunters..
 
The red panther said:
I would compute that with the fact alot of people on here are seriously very biased when it comes down to Carrick along with the fact that our so called best football in december really is seriously overrated and in fact not so good at all.

There is a good reason why Mourinho stopped playing him.
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You are both right and wrong in this discussion. We did play our most consistently good football in that period when we first bought Carrick into the team and used him to anchor the midfield with Herrera and Pogba alongside him. However, we then relied on him too heavily and Mourinho played him in every single game. He then seemed to burn out quite quickly (after a month or two) and couldn't maintain that form, at which point he stopped being picked again.

Going by what we saw last season, Carrick still has the ability. However he can't play every game. He needs to be managed carefully, similarly to how Giggs was towards the end. As such, we can't be going into the season relying on him as part of our first choice midfield.
 
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Von Mistelroum said:
I've said for a while that I won't be surprised if we end up sticking with our current midfield. Fellaini, Blind, Carrick and a youth chap or two might have to suffice.
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Will be interesting to see how & where the youngsters play in the next few exhibitions, especially Pereira & TFM. If TFM isn't playing CDM, then we're still shopping for another CM. Doubt Axel can serve in that spot either, but maybe Jose will give one of them a try? I believe Pereira played centrally or on the right for Granada, but wonder if he can serve on the left.
 
I am not sure any of the ones that we have been linked with will come off. Dier? Not likely. Matic? Getting linked with Juve now and Chelsea less likely to sell to us after swiping Lukaku. Fabinho probably won't be sold if Bakayoko goes to Chelsea. I doubt Monaco are willing to get rid of all of their players in one summer.
 
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