The search for a holding midfielder (Summer 2017 version)

cheeky_backheel said:
A DLP is a type of DM. The DM is the position while DLP is the role.
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A classical dlp will always need a top quality dm with him. Someone with real workrate like gattuso or vidal who can rip failini or herrera in shreds. Carrick was a freak of nature who could cover the dm role while whipping the ball nearly as pirlo did. There are no new carricks around.

A top dm will win the ball and create the safety net a dlp needs to develop and shine . A young Scholes needed keane, a young pirlo needed gattuso, a young zidane needed deschamps. Rest assured Pereira is neither pirlo nor scholes nor zidane
 
apotheosis said:
Yes i understand that, but all im saying is that if we don't buy a DM, then that will allow opportunity for Pereira to come in -although not as a DM- but as probably more of a DLP option. We must be looking at an alternative option to playing with an actual DM, especially if we haven't got any and we are not going to buy one. Whether or not TFM or another youngster was to come in for that role, then i don't really know, but i would find it unlikely to be first looking at the experience of Matic, and then simply settling for a untested youngster as a regular DM.

Tbh hard to say, i would have thought his primary plans will have been affected by us not getting a DM, so maybe some re-evaluating and revising of them is currently underway?

Interesting to know how has he setup us up so far in the friendlies? (i haven't seen any of them myself as yet, too late for me!) Is there anything tactical we can determine from them so far, generally speaking?
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Since we dont have a dm we need to buy one. A dlp needs a dm. Pirlo needed gattuso, scholes needed keane, albertini needed rijkaard. Carrick is a one of a kind player who could cover both roles but there are no new carricks around

There is no beating sround the bush here. The only way andreas or pogba can shine is by bringing in a dm. Its like replacing bailly and ddg with mcnair and stones and expect lindelof to shine simply because the latter are better passers of the ball
 
devilish said:
Since we dont have a dm we need to buy one. A dlp needs a dm. Pirlo needed gattuso, scholes needed keane, albertini needed rijkaard. Carrick is a one of a kind player who could cover both roles but there are no new carricks around

There is no beating sround the bush here. The only way andreas or pogba can shine is by bringing in a dm. Its like replacing bailly and ddg with mcnair and stones and expect lindelof to shine simply because the latter are better passers of the ball
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Well, i don't disagree with that. But my point was regarding to what we are going to do if we don't get one? Jose has already suggested he will have to make do with only more signing, and I believe Mourinho will prioritize a left footed winger over a DM. We already have Carrick and McTominay, as well as Herrera, TFM and Fellaini. Some of those will have to fulfill more defensive roles -even if not as a DM- in certain games, but there will be plenty of games where this type of role isn't as important, but the creativity of a direct winger who can cross the ball certainly will be.
 
apotheosis said:
Well, i don't disagree with that. But my point was regarding to what we are going to do if we don't get one? Jose has already suggested he will have to make do with only more signing, and I believe Mourinho will prioritize a left footed winger over a DM. We already have Carrick and McTominay, as well as Herrera, TFM and Fellaini. Some of those will have to fulfi
ll more defensive roles -even if not as a DM- in certain games, but there will be plenty of games where this type of role isn't as important, but the creativity of a direct winger who can cross the ball certainly will be.
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If we dont buy a dm then we will resort to the ridiculous musical chairs we had last season with mou playing anyone who can tackle there. The big gap between midfield and defence will remain exploited, our attacking minded players will have to play deeper and we will struggle to score goals.

Im not too go bothered about our creative spark tbh. Mkhitaryan had always struggle in his first season + Both martial and rashford suffered from a second season syndrome. However we need a dm. Its nearly as important as us signing lukaku
 
devilish said:
A classical dlp will always need a top quality dm with him. Someone with real workrate like gattuso or vidal who can rip failini or herrera in shreds. Carrick was a freak of nature who could cover the dm role while whipping the ball nearly as pirlo did. There are no new carricks around.

A top dm will win the ball and create the safety net a dlp needs to develop and shine . A young Scholes needed keane, a young pirlo needed gattuso, a young zidane needed deschamps. Rest assured Pereira is neither pirlo nor scholes nor zidane
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You are mixing up position and roles by your lose use of the term DM.

What you seem to be referring to as DM are what I would refer to has traditional or pure DMs and some would call them destroyers - essentially high level ball winners (holding or otherwise), but they are not the only type of roles that can be carried out from the position of DM.

At Madrid under Mourinho, Alonso was a DM in a dual pivot with khedira as the CM. Alonso was both a DLPM and a destroyer, while Khedira (a good ball winner in his own right) was a box2box CM who joined the attack and was often ahead of the ball.

At Milan, Pirlo was a DM at the base of a diamond with the role of DLPM, while both Gattuso and Seedorf were the CMs but had more ball winning responsibilities (Kaka was the AM at the top of the diamond).

Personally, I think the best compliment to Pogba is a true ball winner that can play the holding role and thus gives Pogba the freedom to go forward
 
devilish said:
A classical dlp will always need a top quality dm with him. Someone with real workrate like gattuso or vidal who can rip failini or herrera in shreds. Carrick was a freak of nature who could cover the dm role while whipping the ball nearly as pirlo did. There are no new carricks around.

A top dm will win the ball and create the safety net a dlp needs to develop and shine . A young Scholes needed keane, a young pirlo needed gattuso, a young zidane needed deschamps. Rest assured Pereira is neither pirlo nor scholes nor zidane
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This is so far from the truth. It's very narrow-minded to say all the midfielders who can actually pass the ball a bit need a gritty workhorse next to them to run about kicking folk doing all the defending for them to be able to go and express themselves. You would have had a point had you only been referring to the style or way in which a player plays - partnering a DLP with a player with complimentary attributes will bring out the best in them - however, you then bring up Carrick showing you mean positionally as well as stylistically.

Your examples are very confusing. Yes Gattuso and Vidal were/ are hardworking and aggressive, but a 'safety net' they most certainly do not provide. Gattuso ran about daft closing down opponents and Vidal doesn't play deep in midfield in or out of possession being an advanced midfield player. If anything, Pirlo and Xabi Alonso - who I would imagine you would also class as a DLP - were/ are the players providing the safety net for these workhorses to do their thing. Carrick is nothing like Gattuso or Vidal. Workhorse, ball winner, Fellaini-shredder are not words you would use to describe him.

Midfielders have varied abilities and tendencies. Some are predominantly silky, some gritty. Some are inclined to sit and hold, others drive forward. Some can do either. In a midfield two there tends to be a holding player and one who has more freedom to get forward. There is no right way to play a position. Having a playmaker as the holder is just as feasible as having a destroyer. Hence why Pirlo and Makelele played in the same position with drastically different styles.
 
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sherrinford said:
This is so far from the truth. It's very narrow-minded to say all the midfielders who can actually pass the ball a bit need a gritty workhorse next to them to run about kicking folk doing all the defending for them to be able to go and express themselves. You would have had a point had you only been referring to the style or way in which a player plays - partnering a DLP with a player with complimentary attributes will bring out the best in them - however, you then bring up Carrick showing you mean positionally as well as stylistically.

Your examples are very confusing. Yes Gattuso and Vidal were/ are hardworking and aggressive, but a 'safety net' they most certainly do not provide. Gattuso ran about daft closing down opponents and Vidal doesn't play deep in midfield in or out of possession being an advanced midfield player. If anything, Pirlo and Xabi Alonso - who I would imagine you would also class as a DLP - were/ are the players providing the safety net for these workhorses to do their thing. Carrick is nothing like Gattuso or Vidal. Workhorse, ball winner, Fellaini-shredder are not words you would use to describe him.

Midfielders have varied abilities and tendencies. Some are predominantly silky, some gritty. Some are inclined to sit and hold, others drive forward. Some can do either. In a midfield two there tends to be a holding player and one who has more freedom to get forward. There is no right way to play a position. Having a playmaker as the holder is just as feasible as having a destroyer. Hence why Pirlo and Makelele played in the same position with drastically different styles.
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Well name me playmakers who didnt need people to win the ball and close the gaps for them. Note that carrick is not a playmaker. He was a dm who was excellent with the ball (nowhere near to top playmakers like pirlo or alonso let alone scholes)

We tried to play with 11 snowflakes who were only good to pass the ball before and it failed badly ie the lvg administration.
 
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cheeky_backheel said:
You are mixing up position and roles by your lose use of the term DM.

What you seem to be referring to as DM are what I would refer to has traditional or pure DMs and some would call them destroyers - essentially high level ball winners (holding or otherwise), but they are not the only type of roles that can be carried out from the position of DM.

At Madrid under Mourinho, Alonso was a DM in a dual pivot with khedira as the CM. Alonso was both a DLPM and a destroyer, while Khedira (a good ball winner in his own right) was a box2box CM who joined the attack and was often ahead of the ball.

At Milan, Pirlo was a DM at the base of a diamond with the role of DLPM, while both Gattuso and Seedorf were the CMs but had more ball winning responsibilities (Kaka was the AM at the top of the diamond).

Personally, I think the best compliment to Pogba is a true ball winner that can play the holding role and thus gives Pogba the freedom to go forward
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Khedira is an excellent ball winner. All i am saying is we need a dm ie someone who do the donkey work and is excellent in disrupting the opponents game plan and allow the more offensive players to focus on their magic. We currently dont have that.
 
Not sure about this insistence on a destroyer DM. Quick frankly if you have 2 high work rate players like Hererra who can knit things together at the back it frees up a player like Pogba. Guys who can defend and pass. It has a good balance to it. Alternatively you find a Makele (good luck with that) and pair him with Pogba acting as a DLP, and play a more dynamic MF in an advanced position.
 
There are a few who would fulfill the requirements but only Jose knows why we seem to be stuck
 
devilish said:
If we dont buy a dm then we will resort to the ridiculous musical chairs we had last season with mou playing anyone who can tackle there. The big gap between midfield and defence will remain exploited, our attacking minded players will have to play deeper and we will struggle to score goals.

Im not too go bothered about our creative spark tbh. Mkhitaryan had always struggle in his first season + Both martial and rashford suffered from a second season syndrome. However we need a dm. Its nearly as important as us signing lukaku
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Yeah, well i have been harping on about having an alternative to Carrick for years. I feel we lack aggression and presence in our midfield at times, and have done for a long time, since Keane really. Carrick is great at what he does and i'm not knocking him, but sometimes i feel having an aggressive energetic physical presence is also needed at times. Fletcher managed to provide this for a while, and more recently Fellaini has been the one who has added some much needed presence and physicality. But both lacked/lack the technical skills to ever be top drawer.

I was gutted to miss out on Kante, he looked like just what we needed. Yet missing out on Keita would gut me even more. He is the type of dynamic multi-attributed player who can fulfill a variety of midfield roles, and because he is so varied and effective in his overall contribution, you cannot really restrict his skill-set to only one position. He is not a specialist DM, but i have little doubt he could be extremely effective in such a role whenever needed. But again, in games where a DM skill-set is less required, he can easily transition to contribute positively in more advanced areas. So much variety and a wealth of differing options emerge from having a player like that.

That's what we should be looking for imo. When you have someone who can carry/drive/dribble the ball beyond the midfield and into advanced areas, the forwards are then obliged to group much closer together in and around the box, which then puts the defence under far more pressure and thus provides many more opportunities to score. A shield won't give us that, so while he will free up Pogba, the responsibility will then fall on Pogba to provide much of our general creativity. But buying Perisic -instead of a DM- would allow us to expect a regular source of reliable service to the strikers. Adding some much needed variety to our attacking options, and helping spread out the creative responsibilities.

So, in my view we would benefit much more from having Keita in our midfield than a winger, yet i feel we would benefit more from having a direct and reliable winger than giving Pogba an occasionally required safety net.
 
You crazy bastards... Ive been playing football for 50 years now, have played every season for the last 50 years in 11 a side leagues, have played 5 a side and 7 aside summer football as well as futsal. Ive been coached by countless coaches from all parts of the world and spent most of my time playing somewhere in midfield and its usually 11 months of the year where Im doing something football related. Ive also played in half a dozen different countries but for the life of me have never heard of this DLP or DLPM position. What the feck is that?
 
Stephen N'Zonzi, he's a very good player and I daresay might even be a more shrewd and astute signing than paying 60mn pounds for Dier and/or Matic.
 
In the latest " the (impossible) hope that kills you" news, I see the third hand whisper press is linking us to Verratti and Vidal as alternatives to the Matic transfer. If you'll believe that you'll believe anything, but it did make me a bit nostalgic for the tabloid rumour-mongering/Woodward hubris of previous years.
 
Stack said:
You crazy bastards... Ive been playing football for 50 years now, have played every season for the last 50 years in 11 a side leagues, have played 5 a side and 7 aside summer football as well as futsal. Ive been coached by countless coaches from all parts of the world and spent most of my time playing somewhere in midfield and its usually 11 months of the year where Im doing something football related. Ive also played in half a dozen different countries but for the life of me have never heard of this DLP or DLPM position. What the feck is that?
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Yeah, but have you played football manager? :P
 
Stack said:
You crazy bastards... Ive been playing football for 50 years now, have played every season for the last 50 years in 11 a side leagues, have played 5 a side and 7 aside summer football as well as futsal. Ive been coached by countless coaches from all parts of the world and spent most of my time playing somewhere in midfield and its usually 11 months of the year where Im doing something football related. Ive also played in half a dozen different countries but for the life of me have never heard of this DLP or DLPM position. What the feck is that?
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:lol: dunno. Didn't one of them team up with the conservatives after the last election though?
 
Rabiot at United would be great now and even better in years to come. Probably not going to happen, though I can hope.

I know he's not a holding midfielder quite yet – even though he has experience from playing in that position – but I believe that's where he'll master his crafts in the future.
 
Sergi Roberto for me. Good all round ability. Played at right back last season but now they've signed Semedo in the position.
 
We badly need another midfielder. Carrick is past it and will be used very rarely. Fellaini is still piss poor and should have left the club a long time ago. We rely on Herrera in that role and if he's out, we'll struggle. Pogba should play further upfront while Pereira is still a bit unknown (not sure if Jose fully trusts him yet). So we need one more defensive midfielder badly
 
Red_toad said:
Edit he also played as a midfielder with TFM at right back against Palace. So he only started there due to TFM's injury?
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That hardly proves anything doesn't it? Lots of youngsters got to play that game. Tuanzebe had just played a few games in DM while TFM was injured and he performed decently. TFM returned for that last match and looking at the options, what would be more logical? Benching Tuanzebe and playing Dearnley as RB and TFM as DM, or just keep Tuanzebe in DM like the last games and play TFM as right back, where TFM has played more often at United as well. Fact remains that Tuanzebe never played DM and TFM would have played those games if he were not injured.
 
TheForgottenOne said:
That hardly proves anything doesn't it? Lots of youngsters got to play that game. Tuanzebe had just played a few games in DM while TFM was injured and he performed decently. TFM returned for that last match and looking at the options, what would be more logical? Benching Tuanzebe and playing Dearnley as RB and TFM as DM, or just keep Tuanzebe in DM like the last games and play TFM as right back, where TFM has played more often at United as well. Fact remains that Tuanzebe never played DM and TFM would have played those games if he were not injured.
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So even though both of them played and Tuanzebe played DM and TFM right back, it would never have happened as its a fact? Sounds like you're putting up a good point of view. Something that did happen, wouldn't happen fact :lol:
 
I think the DM (or destroyer role as well put) is crucial. We have many options on the wing, some inconsistency there perhaps, but someone securing the back four who can either also carry the ball forward (like Kante) or who can pass to a good standard while solidifying that gap between defence and midfield like an Alonso/Carrick type is vital. We can't get Busquets, Schweinsteiger should have given us that for at least a few years but was a shadow of what I remember when at Bayern, khedira could have been an option but was destined for Juve. I still think Matic may be the best option. Mourinho knows him and what he can do, and TFM could end up moving into the role. At some point TFM is either going to force his way into the RB position or play CDM surely? I see a lot of interest in Keita from the fans (especially of a certain other team)- only seen on YouTube to be honest, and we know that can make anyone look great on a highlights reel- I guess some of you watched him play last year in full matches- is he THAT good? (genuine question- not rhetorical).
 
Red_toad said:
So even though both of them played and Tuanzebe played DM and TFM right back, it would never have happened as its a fact? Sounds like you're putting up a good point of view. Something that did happen, wouldn't happen fact :lol:
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Poor choice of words from my side. Let's rephrase is to: Simple logic dictates that TFM would have played DM in those matches were he not injured.
Anyways, this discussion is going nowhere as you clearly have your opinion and I have mine.
 
William Carvalho links have dried up this summer.
 
Zoo said:
William Carvalho links have dried up this summer.
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Apparently hasn't progressed as many Sporting fans wished. The thing is with Carvalho, I'd suspect Mourinho would have seen a fair bit of him given that he's a regular watcher of the Portuguese league, so he probably doesn't rate him that highly.
 
I probably just misunderstood what Mourinho was saying, but did he say that a midfielder was the priority (or 3rd signing) today?

So sign a midfielder and then a winger if it's possible?
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I probably just misunderstood what Mourinho was saying, but did he say that a midfielder was the priority (or 3rd signing) today?

So sign a midfielder and then a winger if it's possible?
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I would assume Matic is the priority over Perisic, yes, simply because after Carrick have have no proper holding midfielder in the squad.
 
LawCharltonBest said:
I probably just misunderstood what Mourinho was saying, but did he say that a midfielder was the priority (or 3rd signing) today?

So sign a midfielder and then a winger if it's possible?
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I heard him say he wants 2 more players but would understand if we only managed to get one given the current market. He wants it done quickly.

Missed the rest as I was pissing around on my phone, my bad.
 
We waited so long and still have not bought a midfielder. I believe many options are even more difficult to get now, like Monaco who said that they want to keep Fabinho. Still for me a big worry, we just don't have enough quality in midfield
 
devilish said:
Since we dont have a dm we need to buy one. A dlp needs a dm. Pirlo needed gattuso, scholes needed keane, albertini needed rijkaard. Carrick is a one of a kind player who could cover both roles but there are no new carricks around

There is no beating sround the bush here. The only way andreas or pogba can shine is by bringing in a dm. Its like replacing bailly and ddg with mcnair and stones and expect lindelof to shine simply because the latter are better passers of the ball
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Good points but who is the Gattuso/Keane/Rijkaard/Carrick/Seedorf to allow them to shine because it certainly isnt Matic or Dier for me
 
rollingstoned1 said:
Stephen N'Zonzi, he's a very good player and I daresay might even be a more shrewd and astute signing than paying 60mn pounds for Dier and/or Matic.
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Although personally wouldnt sign any of them, I agree with you on Nzonzi being a better bet than the other two. Better player and better price too. I was quite shocked a lot of premiership sides didnt try and sign him from Stoke, very under rated during his time in the premiership.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if these Matic rumours are bs and we will bring in some younger 22-24y defensive midfielder. I got feeling, that this time Mourinho is building team for a future. I don't mean we don't try to win next season but we have brought in many young (or "young") players like Pogba, Lukaku, Lindelöf and Bailly. All of them are 23 or 24 years old. I guess it's not accidence. And we already have players like Rashford, Martial, Lingard and Shaw. Right now i would put my money to Fabinho but new DM could some surprise name too.
 
Stack said:
You crazy bastards... Ive been playing football for 50 years now, have played every season for the last 50 years in 11 a side leagues, have played 5 a side and 7 aside summer football as well as futsal. Ive been coached by countless coaches from all parts of the world and spent most of my time playing somewhere in midfield and its usually 11 months of the year where Im doing something football related. Ive also played in half a dozen different countries but for the life of me have never heard of this DLP or DLPM position. What the feck is that?
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Deep-Lying Playmaker.
 
rollingstoned1 said:
Stephen N'Zonzi, he's a very good player and I daresay might even be a more shrewd and astute signing than paying 60mn pounds for Dier and/or Matic.
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Good shout,but he really in the list of Jose possess ?I doubt that.All this window only Juventus has been linked with him.He had a good final season at PL before being transferred.
 
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