The root of Manutd's problems

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
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The root of Manutd Problems

Two years ago Man utd won the league with a 11 points cushion. Despite this incredible success we all knew where our problems lied

One of these problems for example was in the attack. An attack that could enchant but was too lightweight to give us the options needed to win again the CL.

Another problem was Steve Mclaren’s departure that left SAF alone on the throne of the Manutd’s empire

Yet our main problem relied in the defense. With Johnsen and May suffering serious long-term injuries and with Irwin too old to reach Manutd’s standards, It was obvious we needed to strengthen the defense.

It was obvious that Manutd was ready to spend big that year. After all it was SAF last year and he had the entire financial backup needed to finish the season with style.

SAF wisely signed Ruud Van Nistelrooy but instead of investing heavily in the defense (which we really needed) he brought in Veron (a good player but not what we needed). His policy was to score one more than his rivals and with Jaap Stam guarding the backline, SAF was certain to have a decent defense

What SAF didn’t considered was Stam’s diary. SAF grew furious about this issue and despite needing Stam badly, he preferred to let Stam go rather than give up to his pride. Stam was sold and Manutd fell into a panicky status. Who could replace Stam especially now when the CL was at the doors? SAF did his best to sign Ayala, but Valencia like other many clubs weren’t reluctant in breaking their backline to strengthen their enemy.

Blanc was SAF ‘s desperate answer to the defense. The 36 year old defender had the experience needed to lead a defense and although his serious lack of pace which was the driving force why Inter weren’t utilizing him anymore, in that critical moment Blanc seemed the best option.

Meanwhile Manutd were passing from a crisis. Goals against us were flowing and the scoring rate wasn’t satisfying. It grew obvious that Scholes wasn’t cut anymore for the forward line and with a lone striker Manutd were suffering. Blanc’s and Veron’s impact wasn’t bad but far from what we expected and miles away from the red devils standards. The 4-4-1-1 formation wasn’t working and despite inserting first Scholes and later Giggs, it grew obvious that we desperately needed to return to our roots.

But how? Letting his 28-M rated Veron sitting on the bench while playing the 4-4-2 formation was too much for SAF. It meaned admitting defeat, something he never and will never do in his career. Cole knew his manager well and with a World cup approaching, Andy was forced to leave his beloved club to try to fulfill his ultimate ambition, playing with England.

SAF is proud but not stupid. With Manutd reaching ridiculous depths, he swiftly turned the team’s formation to the traditional 4-4-2, with Solskjear and RVN playing up front. The defense was in a terrible state but the goals returned and this was enough to trigger us back. Manutd returned to its former glory, perhaps too late but still battling for the EL.

With Cole at Blackburn. Manutd were now forced to splash cash for an attacker. Many where cup tied so a South American seemed to be the wisest option.. SAF relied on his brother and the name Forlan pipped out. Re- assured by Mclaren’s incredible interestment, SAF went in and signed the guy.

The 4-4-2 formation was bringing some pride to OT yet playing Veron part time (with Scholes) was
too much for SAF. Both Scholes and Veron seemed unhappy of the situation and knowing that all Manutd supporters (+ board) would have preferred losing Veron rather than Scholes (this would mean a 28M blunder in Fergie’s imaculate CV) SAF returned to his 4-4-1-1 formation.

The results were Disastrous with Manutd finishing trophysless and 3 in the EL. It was obvious that Cole and Stam weren’t decently replaced, that the 4-4-1-1 was a mess and that Veron was not needed at OT.

SAF was now perfectly concerned about his problems. Carlos Queroz and Fininho were brought in to give the backroom’s backup so long lacking in our first team and reserves while the defense was strengthened by the arrival of Rio Ferdinand and the introduction of J Oshea. Blanc was kept as backup but with SAF failing to bring Escude and Burdisso, the Scottish master was forced to rely once more on his French veteran.
What concerned many was SAF reluctance in bringing a new forward. Yorke was (rightly) sold but with only RVN, Solskjear and the unconfirmed Forlan it was evident that the 4-4-1-1 formation was there to stay. Things got more complicated when Manutd started losing first team players that publicly exposed our strength in depth problems.
My verdict is this. We have the team and the mentality to win. We have the youngsters (O Shea Webber, Djordic and Richardson) to hope for and the Staff to lead these youngsters to stardom but things must improve.
For example
1. The dead wood must be sold. For example May will never return to his best while Chadwick is NOT our level.
2. Youths must be introduced to the team. O Shea and Richardson have showed us ample talent so let us have the guts to give them more experience
3. THE 4-4-2 Formation should be re introduced.
4. The defense, the right wing ( cover for David Beckham) and the attack must be strengthened
4 simple points that if we work on it we will surely return to our best. No one has the talent that Man utd has so let us exploit the talent to its full.
 
Bring on RUnited for the longest thread in history.
 
Sorry mate - that's just way too long for me.
 
quality post.

i disagree:

you are too harsh on Veron and Blanc. i think they are doing their best and credits MUST be given when its due.

it's not easy bringing in a 36 year old guy to lead the whole defence.

it's not easy to bring a European based player into the team that suddenly decide to go 4-4-1-1. not only is it difficult for Veron, but also for the whole team.

i agree:

SAF has made many errors in this past 2 seasons.
he MAY have big plans. although i doubt this very much because if he did he wouldn't have said he wanted to quit last season.

BUT:
we're united fans.. i doubt it's the time to criticise anyone anymore.. i know i've said things about SAF.. but it doesn't mean i don't want to give him anymore chances.. i'd like to see him go out in style.. so i'll keep my faith.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Bring on RUnited for the longest thread in history.</strong><hr></blockquote>

hahaha. i write long threads to avoid people like you reading it. you're full of shit mate.
 
So basically its all Demento's fault..

You needed new defenders, instead he wasted 28m on the hapless Veron..

You needed a new attacker, you had no cash because you overpaid for the fashionable Rio..

Nice
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

hahaha. i write long threads to avoid people like you reading it. you're full of shit mate.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bearing in mind I write so little (since you've arrived and there's no room) how do you come to this conclusion?
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Bearing in mind I write so little (since you've arrived and there's no room) how do you come to this conclusion?</strong><hr></blockquote>

you always manage to abuse every single poster without making any valid comments. always. every thread we'll see one stupid idiotic post calling the poster with abusive terms.. that's how i came to my conclusion..

go on dans, once in a while, show some of your wits and write something that actually make sense. i haven't seen it in the 15 days i've been here.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

hahaha. i write long threads to avoid people like you reading it. you're full of shit mate.</strong><hr></blockquote>

And I think you write long posts cos you can.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

And I think you write long posts cos you can.</strong><hr></blockquote>

is that supposed to be a compliment? i'm not getting the sarcasm in it.. am i lost?
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

you always manage to abuse every single poster without making any valid comments. always. every thread we'll see one stupid idiotic post calling the poster with abusive terms.. that's how i came to my conclusion..

go on dans, once in a while, show some of your wits and write something that actually make sense. i haven't seen it in the 15 days i've been here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You're a drama queen mate. Every single poster my arse.

If you want to dig something up, go looking for it - there's plenty there.
 
RUnited, don't mind Dans, he has much longer periods of miery and depression than just 15 days, it can last for months sometimes. ;)

Devilish, spot on mate. All of it. But then it is all very obvious, and has been commented on repeatedly both in the press and on here. The real question is what does the future hold, and whether Alex will be part of it, my hunch is he won't be - I think McClaren or Erikkson will be our manager within a year.
 
I'd go for McClaren out of those two myself as well, but I do believe that Sven was hours away from being our new manager, and with the turbulence in the England setup it wouldn't surprise me to see him leave early - but I dislike his style of play but maybe its fitted around Owen.
 
In my post i have tried to enveil Manutd's problems Without pointing the finger to any one.

For example I have critised SAF but i have also pointed out the good things he brought in the team during this year and a half ( RVN for example)

My verdict on

Blanc was a great defender but at 36 years he wasnt the man to suceed Stam. You may critisy Stam for ages, but Blanc at the current age was never going to succeed in this over demanding role.

Veron. JSV is a wonderful world class player. But what we really needed (and need) was a forward and a defender and not a midfielder.

Forlan has the heart set at OT and the technique that will enable him one day to make it at OT. But he is a fringe player and you dont buy an uncomplete product for 7.5 m. Forlan came to replace Manutd's most consistant striker ( Andy Cole) and he is miles away from achieving this.

I am against no one, what i wanted was to point out my sincere views. I Believe that Manutd are England's greatest team and will achieve this aim once we do these final touches
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>

Blanc was a great defender but at 36 years he wasnt the man to suceed Stam. You may critisy Stam for ages, but Blanc at the current age was never going to succeed in this over demanding role.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

What's Blanc done wrong since he came here? In the vast majority of games, he's been superb!
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

What's Blanc done wrong since he came here? In the vast majority of games, he's been superb!</strong><hr></blockquote>
He's been ok, not a patch on Stam imo, but more importantly he's caused us to defend deeper, and be more exposed to the counter attack, also requiring other players to cover him - obviously most noticeable in the first 6 months, but the deep defending has continued ever since.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>I'd go for McClaren out of those two myself as well, but I do believe that Sven was hours away from being our new manager, and with the turbulence in the England setup it wouldn't surprise me to see him leave early - but I dislike his style of play but maybe its fitted around Owen.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Eriksson worked the magic with JSV.. i think JSV had great years under Sven.. i'd love to see them partner up again.. although i also support england and if they are in a good place with Sven then i really don't want United to pull him over and destroy the English dreams of ever winning another trophy..

i personally see Hitzfeld as the next great one at United. he'll be perfect for our transition period.. he has the ability to pull things together and make something happen. by the time he quits we'll be a great team and we could bring in McClaren then.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
He's been ok, not a patch on Stam imo, but more importantly he's caused us to defend deeper, and be more exposed to the counter attack, also requiring other players to cover him - obviously most noticeable in the first 6 months, but the deep defending has continued ever since.</strong><hr></blockquote>

how can defending deeper expose us to the counter acttack
 
Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

how can defending deeper expose us to the counter acttack</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
Originally posted by RUDDY:
<strong>

how can defending deeper expose us to the counter acttack</strong><hr></blockquote>
You misunderstand me, we defend deeper to prevent that, but if they ever creep up a bit, we get hit on the break. To be fair they seem to also be breaking down our flanks as Gary often gets caught in an advanced right wing position and is slow at getting back into position.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
He's been ok, not a patch on Stam imo, but more importantly he's caused us to defend deeper, and be more exposed to the counter attack, also requiring other players to cover him - obviously most noticeable in the first 6 months, but the deep defending has continued ever since.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yeah,I agree we're defending deeper now than earlier, but I can't see how this exposes us to counter attack, rather the opposite!

However, Blanc can't be blamed for us defending deeper alone, because we got plenty of pace at the back to cover for Blanc.

On the positive note, with Blanc we are more composed on the ball at the back, which should allow us to bring the ball out constructively and start attacking quicker.

As Keano said, Blanc is NOT one of United's problems.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

What's Blanc done wrong since he came here? In the vast majority of games, he's been superb!</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree with that.

thought he was very good last year.
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

Eriksson worked the magic with JSV.. i think JSV had great years under Sven.. i'd love to see them partner up again.. although i also support england and if they are in a good place with Sven then i really don't want United to pull him over and destroy the English dreams of ever winning another trophy..

i personally see Hitzfeld as the next great one at United. he'll be perfect for our transition period.. he has the ability to pull things together and make something happen. by the time he quits we'll be a great team and we could bring in McClaren then.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How old is Hitzfeld? Why would he want to, he's already managing Bayern where he's been more successful than us.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
You misunderstand me, we defend deeper to prevent that, but if they ever creep up a bit, we get hit on the break. To be fair they seem to also be breaking down our flanks as Gary often gets caught in an advanced right wing position and is slow at getting back into position.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Which has nothing to do with Blanc!

In the Nevilles, Rio, Silvestre and O'Shea, we have plenty of players that should be able to cover for Blanc's lack of pace.

Brucie wasn't exactly the quickest, and I don't see Liverpool suffering because of Hyypia's lack of pace.
 
Why any of you believe that JSV was so wonderful before he came to OT is beyond me. He is and always was a one in six games player.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Why any of you believe that JSV was so wonderful before he came to OT is beyond me. He is and always was a one in six games player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Play him in Europe mainly, and in certain home games in the PL. Leave the nitty-gritty games against team like Liverpool, Leeds etc who's main priority is to stiffle our game, to Butt.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

Which has nothing to do with Blanc!

In the Nevilles, Rio, Silvestre and O'Shea, we have plenty of players that should be able to cover for Blanc's lack of pace.

Brucie wasn't exactly the quickest, and I don't see Liverpool suffering because of Hyypia's lack of pace.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There shouldn't be a need to have someone covering him, thats always an imperfect solution. Look at Radebe. Defending so deep is a problem, it should be them that are forced to defend deep. If ever we do press up around their box in the old United style, we then have to rely on just one centre back to cover the break, and 2 forwards can easily get past that one.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>
There shouldn't be a need to have someone covering him, thats always an imperfect solution. Look at Radebe. Defending so deep is a problem, it should be them that are forced to defend deep. If ever we do press up around their box in the old United style, we then have to rely on just one centre back to cover the break, and 2 forwards can easily get past that one.</strong><hr></blockquote>


But we don't have to defend that deep. And by letting Blanc be the first defender, you leave Rio or O'Shea to cover him. And we should never leave two defenders with two attackers anyway.
If we had a drawing board here I would explain it to you...

You play to the strengths of the team/players, and Blanc's strengths far than outweigh his negatives.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

You play to the strengths of the team/players, and Blanc's strengths far than outweigh his negatives.</strong><hr></blockquote>


he's still a good defender...


i love watching him play, deffo the most technically gifted player i've seen play for United... to appreciate you have to see him play live.
 
He's one of the most talented defenders of recent times. He's now 37. You can't argue for a top team to have a 37 year old defender as first choice.
 
Originally posted by Neil Thomson:
<strong>He's one of the most talented defenders of recent times. He's now 37. You can't argue for a top team to have a 37 year old defender as first choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Why not? As long as he's good enough, and warrant a place in the team, it doesn't matter if he's 17, 25 or 37.
 
Its a nice little article, though easy enough to draw those conclusions with hindsight.

Despite winning the European Cup once, it quickly became apparent that we had to improve if we were to win it again. Being in the top 8 in Europe is fine, but we needed to step up.

SAF's answer: 4-4-1-1

His basic thinking made perfect sense. Having that extra option in midfield, also gave us an extra option to help protect the back four. This was designed to help us not get caught on the counter. In order to learn this system, SAF sacrificed some league form for his experiment. Unfortunately this coincided with more teams putting in a challenge in the Prem.

4-4-1-1 still has no admirers but it IS working in Europe this season. The real (or maybe Real) test is still to come of course.

We have a fast, fit, talented squad. When we play at full tilt our players need to know, instinctively where their team mates are. We have this playing 4-4-2 (certainly with our strongest team out) no question. We're now able to play this way, in Europe, with 4-4-1-1.

Its been painful, and probably cos us the Prem last season, but if we lift the European Cup in May all will be forgiven. SAF has given us 15 glorious seasons. He knows what winning the EC again would mean to him, his players, and the fans.

He's not let us down yet, let's the keep the faith a little longer eh

(speech over)
 
His basic thinking made perfect sense. Having that extra option in midfield, also gave us an extra option to help protect the back four. This was designed to help us not get caught on the counter. In order to learn this system, SAF sacrificed some league form for his experiment. Unfortunately this coincided with more teams putting in a challenge in the Prem.

[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

100% in agreement with you we do seem to have hit a good vein of form in Europe playing the 4-4-1-1 but is it worth sacrificing the prem for ? Especially given the form Real are in
 
Originally posted by Burt:
<strong>

100% in agreement with you we do seem to have hit a good vein of form in Europe playing the 4-4-1-1 but is it worth sacrificing the prem for ? Especially given the form Real are in</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tough call. I dont think the Prem should ever be sacrificed, but if we a) win in Europe and b) regain our Prem crown.... then it was worth it.
 
We have been better in the CL just because we have faced inferior teams

Let me explain

B Levekusen. A depleted team which have just lost their two main players Ballack and Ze Roberto.

Olympiakos. An average team. Thier keeper wouldnt catch a cold while remember that the greek league havent yet started.

Haifa a promising team but far from the EPL standard.

I dont want to sound pessimistic, but these are the facts. WE NEED TO IMPROVE
 
Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>

you always manage to abuse every single poster without making any valid comments. always. every thread we'll see one stupid idiotic post calling the poster with abusive terms.. that's how i came to my conclusion..

go on dans, once in a while, show some of your wits and write something that actually make sense. i haven't seen it in the 15 days i've been here.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's true Dans - you are a twat, you're unfunny, unoriginal, and you strike me as the type of person who just posts replys to get on people's nerves - so perhaps you're a very bored person also ?

You're one of those extremely annoying people who always manages to get on people's nerves. You've written a heck of a lot of crap and have been generally unproductive and disinteresting. Come on, I mean it didn't take a new poster like RUnited long to see this.

To sum it up I'd say you're a dick

:) There ! That's my piece done

Oh and I'm expecting Dans' come back in the next hour or so. Should be an exciting variety of intelligence and whit :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by devilish:
<strong> Who could replace Stam especially now when the CL was at the doors? SAF did his best to sign Ayala, but Valencia like other many clubs weren’t reluctant in breaking their backline to strengthen their enemy.</strong><hr></blockquote>

At least stick to facts, not wild rumours.