Atletico Madrid would walk this league.
The relative strength of the Premier League
- Thread starter Wumminator
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In terms of Uefa coefficients England are still above Italy/France, albeit only just ahead of Italy.
Italy and France struggle with 3 places, how many times have their teams lost in the play offs?
What's next weeks argument?
The chinese invented cuju which means england is better at football then anyone else.
Am I close?
BTW it's sweet that Wum and the rest of the brigade are now dismissing La Liga because Celta lost to a top 6 English team in the semifinal of Europa League when West Ham got knocked out by a struggling Romanian team with no players, Southampton were eliminated by Sparta Prague and Hapoel Be'er Sheva and Tottenham, England's second best team, were beaten by a third/fourth best Belgian side.
How could anyone possibly know that a top Spanish team could walk this league over the course of a season? The style of play is entirely different for one thing. Atletico 2/3 seasons ago were most similar to a English team and they always created problems for Real Madrid. The lack of winter break would be another issue Spanish teams would need to deal with; the climate another; the intensity another. Not one person can say with any certainty anyone of Barca, Real, etc would win the Premier League with ease. A poor Leicester side beat Sevilla this season, and then came up short (if not unfortunate in the first leg) vs Atletico. It doesn't mean anything tbh, just as much as Spanish sides beating English teams in one off games.
Oops EL. Apologies!
Silly you, they didn't care, because the league is so competitive.
West Ham and Southampton are clearly better than Celta Vigo. Clearly.
Yeah or take the best argument of all: "clearly".
Celta was one of our easiest games of the season but lets not temp fate. If they get an early goal at OT it is going to get nervy. We really should have scored more.
How so? The only stage you can compare the three, West Ham and Southampton were far worse than Celta.
Bollocks. Spanish football has been looking good in part because all the big English teams have been rebuilding for a number of years. It's been a dip in English football coming off the back of a period where England was extremely dominant in Europe. Now the big EPL teams are starting to take new shape and over the next few years we'll be challenging seriously for the CL again.
And thank feck, because I'm so tired of all this wanking off about La Liga. They have some great players over there, but the way people talk you'd think Spanish football was drizzled with fecking fairy dust or something. Pep thought the EPL was easy too, look how that's working out for him.
Since the end of the euro ban I think it's 26 seasons
England have won the CL 4 times in that time. When exactly was England extremely dominant?
Edit: also let's be honest and without trying to sound extremely bias. The Utd wins, we had very very good sides those two years and could be considered one of the very best teams in europe. Worthy champions
Then looks at the Liverpool side who won it, perhaps the weakest ever champion. And Chelsea who somehow won the most one sided final of all time.
As proven by Celta reaching the semifinal of the competition in which Southampton were eliminated in December while West Ham could not get past August
But clearly one bad game in a semifinal of EL cancels out all the previous achievements.
Sorry I should have been more specific there. I'm not talking dominance in terms of number of wins (although 4 isn't exactly bad) but rather in terms of number of teams getting to the late stages. Remember that for a long time Real were a laughing stock in the CL, getting knocked out in R16 and R32 regularly. Meanwhile English teams were competing year on year.
Between 2004 and 2011 there was an English team in the CL final 7 years out of 8, not to mention our all English final. In that same period, Spanish teams made it to 3. Spain has obviously been resugent in the time since, but given the financial strength of the EPL and clear signs that multiple teams are now recovering from the transition periods we've all been going through, I don't see any reason to think we won't be back challenging for Europe very soon. This season both Chelsea and Spurs had teams perfectly capable of challenging at the top level (if Spurs can get over their inexperience and play in Europe like they do domestically).
West Ham also finished in a Europa League spot last season, and they couldn't even make it past the qualifying rounds
Also, Celta lost their two best players compared to last season. Nolito and Augusto Fernandez, so obviously they weren't going to be as strong.
There is absolutely no evidence to prove that the midtable English teams are any better than midtable Spanish teams. OTOH, there is an abundance of evidence that shows that La Liga is by far the highest level of football, results in Europe prove it beyond doubt.
I don't remember saying that the English teams are any better then the Spanish ones. I said the relative strength of the top 1-5 and the bottom lot of the table is closer in the prem.
A midtable La Liga team came very close to knocking United out of the EL in the semi-final, while West Ham didn't even make it to the actual tournament and Southampton got knocked out in the group stage.
La Liga is just better from top to bottom. Anyone who claims anything else is deluding themselves.
La Liga is just better from top to bottom. Anyone who claims anything else is deluding themselves.
Brave English underdogs barely scraping against the well oiled machine that's sitting in 12th place in La Liga
Barcelona and Real Madrid both lost this same team. Whats your point?Brave English underdogs barely scraping against the well oiled machine that's sitting in 12th place in La Liga
What's yours exactly? I'm saying that United should be beating this team easily, as Barça and RM should as well, given the massive difference in revenue. This result is no proof of PL being superior to La Liga, that's my point.
Teams aren't supposed to win 38 league matches each year btw. Sometimes you lose to worse sides. It happens. You should know.
By superior what do you mean? On a team level where the mid tables are stronger, which makes the league overall more competitive? Or on an individual based level where a player might struggle in one, but thrive in another?
In my point of view in quality of football, Chelsea at best this season would be third in Spain if not fourth.
Superior as having better teams, as demonstrated by sustained European performances throughout the years (and not only the big 3 like people believe... just check UEFA cup/Europa League results in the last decade. Many of these teams are what you would consider "mid tables" so no way the english mid sides are stronger). Superior as having better tactical plans and better technique. Better as having better players as the performances in Europe as well as annual awards would indicate. Perhaps better as in having a more pleasing game to the eye (I find most PL games to be unwatchable)
I'm giving examples, not saying that you should necessarily agree with those points. But imo they're more meaningful than the usual arguments the La Liga haters spout normally here. "United won against Celta! we best league nao!" (while ignoring that spanish sides have won the last 45 or so out of 50 somethings against english sides) "mid sides more competitive" (even though they don't do shit in europe!), the mythical "competitiveness" which means a different thing across cultures (for us it's the league title being decided in the last moment, for Englishmen it's a different side winning the league by march. Bet you hated the PL back then when United were in Bayern mode) and my favorite: "english lower sides are better than spanish counterparts because their players are more well known to me!" (you'll never live that up, wumminator) or because they don't lose as heavily to the big sides (haven't we agreed that RM/Barça/Atleti are years ahead of Chelsea, Tottenham or City? doesn't that fact make that point moot? in what world wouldn't Sunderland get trashed 6-0 by Barça?)
Many European basketball leagues are way more competitive than the NBA which it's always LeBron against Warriors/Spurs. Nobody in their damned mind would say that they're better than the NBA though. For me, it's about quality.
I don't dispute that. It would be illogical to claim that Chelsea are the better of Real and Barca.
They're competitive, but all those European teams would get their asses whooped by any team in the NBA.
I agree with everything else in terms of aesthetics, tactics(although a lot of them are just utter trash as last year I noticed a weird trend of mid table teams trying to implement a high press against teams like Barca and Real only to get their asses cooked 7-1), technique etc...but this is where I draw the line. Do you think that Barca Real Atleti offer more quality than Chelsea, City, Arsenal, United, Liverpool, and Tottenham?
With their style of play and lack of depth, they would be struggling for 5th
What's your point? Tottenham couldn't even got out of their group stage. Arsenal are consistently joke in Europe.
Ah yes, Manchester United drew 1-1 with Celta Vigo at home, so, PL> La liga. 260m well spent.
To give some perspective
- 2 spanish teams were in CL semis this year vs none english
- last 3 (possibly 4) CL were won by spanish vs none by EPL
- 6 of last 8 finalist were spanish vs none epl
Madrid, Barca, Atletico>>> all EPL
This season Man City<Monaco<Juventus; Arsenal<<<Bayern<Madrid; Spurs<(Gent, Leverkusen, Monaco) and United =(Celta, Rostov, Anderlecht)
UEFA coeeficient (which reflect performance in Europe)
#1 - Madrid (2nd la liga)
#3 - Barcelona (1st la liga)
#4 - Alletico (3rd la liga)
#8 - Sevilla (4th la liga)
#10 - Chelsea (1st EPL)
#11 - Arsenal (5th EPL)
#12 - Man City (4th EPL)
#15 - Man United (6th EPL)
#20 - Spurs (2nd EPL)
#21 - Valencia(13th la liga)
#24 - Villareal (5th la liga)
#30 - Bilbao (6th la liga)
#34 - Liverpool (3rd EPL)
This will sound like weird nitpicking but with a gun to my head, I'd bet that La Liga's top 3 is much better, the Prem and La Liga 4-7 spots or so are about the same (better squads in the Prem, mostly better coaching in La Liga though the Prem's recent raids on famous managers has tightened it here), La Liga's 8 or 9-12 or 13 or so are generally a bit better than the Stokes and Southamptons, and for the bottom 7 or so, the Prem teams are stronger just based on the money attracting better depth of talent across the board and probably playing less youngsters and preferring to use solid professionals, which ultimately hurts the league and national teams in Britain and countries in the Prem sphere of influence (Scandinavia, other places where Prem should be a major destination) but in the present makes them a bit stronger.
Its about the style of play that is winning these days.
Name by name some EPL teams need to do better than Monaco in CL..
In the case of Man United the problem is obvious to me: where are the TOP south american players???
Name by name some EPL teams need to do better than Monaco in CL..
In the case of Man United the problem is obvious to me: where are the TOP south american players???
Atletico would walk the English league and have been vastly superior to any English side since 2013. Barca and Real ditto 2009- those three are mikes better than any team in England and will be again next season most likely. It's a cycle and English teams will come again but for now it's Spain and it ain't close.
I'd say the 4-6 in England is perhaps shaping up to look a little better but it's close. Sevilla track record in Europa League can't be ignored nor can Spurs looking miserable in Europe (probably 2nd best English side currently). Bilbao, Sociedad, much better than anything outside top 6 in England and Celta are just as good normally. Middle of the league is pretty evenly matched and the relegation fodder/lowly clubs in England I'd say are definitely better.
So all in all a more competitive and perhaps interesting league is England (not same 2-3 teams every season and not a huge gap after the elite teams) but obviously quality is clearly with Spain.
Edit: the notion that Spain is a two team league is old and worn out. People are quick to forget Atletico deservedly won it in 2014 and were very close last season. They will be in with a shout next season too I'm sure.
I'd say the 4-6 in England is perhaps shaping up to look a little better but it's close. Sevilla track record in Europa League can't be ignored nor can Spurs looking miserable in Europe (probably 2nd best English side currently). Bilbao, Sociedad, much better than anything outside top 6 in England and Celta are just as good normally. Middle of the league is pretty evenly matched and the relegation fodder/lowly clubs in England I'd say are definitely better.
So all in all a more competitive and perhaps interesting league is England (not same 2-3 teams every season and not a huge gap after the elite teams) but obviously quality is clearly with Spain.
Edit: the notion that Spain is a two team league is old and worn out. People are quick to forget Atletico deservedly won it in 2014 and were very close last season. They will be in with a shout next season too I'm sure.
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You could have just said in the last 4 finals, conveniently before our last appearance in the finals with Chelsea v. Bayern. and the year before that with us vs. Barcelona and the subsequent year before that.
I think this shows a dip in quality of EPL teams in past years since 2014, but nowadays I feel like EPL teams are resurging. In a poor season Man City exchanged dubs and losses with Barcelona with neither side looking out of place with each other and an injury ridden United are on their way to the EL finals. We'll see next year.
Including right now? I'd take Chelsea over Atletico any day of the week.
This shouldn't even be for debate, 10 or so years ago English League was the strongest league with difference having 3 teams in semifinals; and sometimes it was before two english teams would have to eliminate between them in a previous round. Currently Spain is dominating and if we also take into account Spain, as a nation, winning 2 Euros and a World Cup it should be clear Spanish League is the better than the Premier league.
An interesting point is the recent glut of promising youth from Belgium after over a decade in the doldrums. despite the belgian league still struggling financially. The English FA should consult them for some ideas.
Um...yeah.
Absolutely. Atletico are clearly better still.
Atlético are better than Chelsea imo. It seems the Simeone era appears to be ending but what they have done in the last years has been remarkable. Winning La Liga against Messi/Ronaldo lead Barça and Real, beating top clubs such as Bayern, Chelsea, Barcelona in late stages of the CL, being in CL final and losing in unlucky fashion are great achievements. I can't see most English clubs doing that. You just have to remember the usual embarassment of Arsenal's runs in the last years.
Brave English underdogs barely scraping against the well oiled machine that's sitting in 12th place in La Liga
What's most depressing about that graph is a team in La Liga makes almost half as much revenue as Ajax, and almost a quarter of what Lyon make.
A truly odious league, no wonder teams like Celta Vigo prioritise European competition.