Money aside, AJ must be thanking his lucky stars that the Fury fight fell through.
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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Fully expected AJ to knock Usyk out, fair play to Usyk he fought his game plan to perfection. This just proves that AJ would be dominated by Fury. Fury is a great technical boxer with the height and reach thrown in, even more difficult of a fight that Usyk.
I wonder if we'll ever see AJ vs Fury now.
I wonder if we'll ever see AJ vs Fury now.
I don't think he'd tell you any different and has stated he'll always be playing catch-up after getting into boxing late, a time when boxers from single digit age are already putting the finishing touches on fundamentals that are intrinsically enmeshed via that formative development.
He's always said he's game and learning and wanting to improve, so I never get why he gets grief in this regard. I think he's come a long way from the muscle bound, power and size reliant fighter he was, and his head movement is far away from what it was; the problem is, he'll never be able to bridge the technical gap and know-how of elite boxers who are head and shoulders above othes who have been boxing since childhood.
Usyk has exacerbated things and distorted perception too much: he's a p4p elite in his own right, who taking his speed and mobility up with him, is going to outdo any heavyweight who tries to outbox him in that division other than Fury and make them look worse than they do against each other.
I really don't know much about boxing and did not watch the fight live, but from some highlights I saw , this did not look like a typical heavyweight fight - with the incessant clinching every 10 seconds. It appeared much more technical from round 1 to 12. Hopefully the rematch is of the same quality.
Sorry haven't popped in in a while. Been super busy. Great fight on Saturday.
My takeaways:
1. Usyk was masterful with his foot placement (see how his lead foot was always on the outside of Joshua's lead?), his feints (body and head) and Joshua simply doesn't have the head movement to avoid his one-two and deadly accurate right down the middle. These are adjustments Joshua probably can't correct in 6 months or with an instant rematch.
2. Joshua fought well contrary to some of the shite I've seen about him being a "bum", or "exposed", fickle "fans" like that are simply shitting on the quality of Usyk and the magnitude of his achievements. I personally hate to see a great fighter have credit taken away from him because some so-called fans are more into hating a fighter (in this case Joshua) than being a fan of the sport or giving someone credit they earned. Joshua, you could see, was making adjustments. He looked like a big clumsy lump for the first four rounds and was badly outclassed but fought well in the middle rounds, connecting some decent shots and taking the play away from Usyk at times. You could see him thinking and certain things working and that's to be credited because after four rounds he looked like he'd lose every round. Still, Usyk's determination, skill, will etc; saw him dominate late. I had him winning the first four and the last four, and of the middle four rounds he won 1 or 2 of them. I think 117-111 felt like the right score.
3. Usyk is certainly the best fighter in the world, and to my estimation, he's the greatest of his era (Mayweather-Pacquaio being the end of the previous era). He's a special talent and a rare character. Think about this: While it took Canelo years and some subpar GGG performances to put his big boy pants on, take some PED's and fight him, he ran away after getting a gift draw and what most consider a gift "win." Look at how difficult it is to get American fighters to fight tough fights, with the exception of Shawn Porter. Spence-Crawford is already past due. Look at the state of the lightweights, just going to social media while doing nothing. Usyk beat a well-regarded unbeaten champion in Krzysztof Glowacki in his backyard in Poland to win a world title in his 10th fight, beats a good unbeaten American challenger, and now respected heavyweight, Michael Hunter, in America. Enters the WBSS, not knowing who he'd have to fight, and is it went, he beat one of the best cruisers ever in Marco Huck in Germany, his backyard, then beats undefeated Mairis Briedis, adding his second title, in his backyard of Latvia (and look at what Briedis has gone on to achieve since...), then went to Russia to beat undefeated Murat Gassiev, who was on fire and held the other two belts. Usyk shut him out. Then he came to England knocked out Bellew, now he's gone to England again in front of 70,000 fans and put on a clinic against a very big, heavy hitting heavyweight champion, who's younger than him and had three titles. There's no drama with Usyk. He's proof if a fighter wants the fights, the fights happen. No controversial wins, no failed PED tests, no suspicions of PED's, no trash talk, just fights, wins, and looks incredible almost every time. I hope he gets the rematch in Ukraine, as he deserves to fight at home for once.
4. Wilder would be cannon fodder for Usyk, Fury would be a style issue. Usyk is definitely the better boxer than Fury, but Fury has height and reach and knows how to use it, isn't afraid to stink it out. He also doesn't gas, so it's a tall order for Usyk, but he's definitely live in that fight.
My new p4p: 1. Usyk 2. Inoue 3. Crawford 4. Lomachenko* 5. Canelo 6. Taylor 7. Fury 8. Lopez 9. Estrada 10. Spence
* Lomachenko above Lopez? Yeah, he's a better fighter and I'm convinced he'd win a rematch rather easily. He carried an injury which was quite clear and it was a case of Lopez also coupling that injury with a massive size advantage but he didn't really do anything. It was a case of both guys doing nothing, but him doing a bit better at doing nothing for the first half, but then Lomachenko bossing the action when they did fight a little. Canelo, as many know, I'm not as blown away as others. The obvious cheating, plus a lot of gift decisions and now he's just moved up to a really, really weak division as middleweight was hot? That was a shitty move IMO. Beterbiev is on the cusp but I wasn't thrilled with his last performance. Estrada, I love, but think lost to Chocolatito, and has a lot of tread in his tires, especially for the lower weights, but his resume is top notch.
My takeaways:
1. Usyk was masterful with his foot placement (see how his lead foot was always on the outside of Joshua's lead?), his feints (body and head) and Joshua simply doesn't have the head movement to avoid his one-two and deadly accurate right down the middle. These are adjustments Joshua probably can't correct in 6 months or with an instant rematch.
2. Joshua fought well contrary to some of the shite I've seen about him being a "bum", or "exposed", fickle "fans" like that are simply shitting on the quality of Usyk and the magnitude of his achievements. I personally hate to see a great fighter have credit taken away from him because some so-called fans are more into hating a fighter (in this case Joshua) than being a fan of the sport or giving someone credit they earned. Joshua, you could see, was making adjustments. He looked like a big clumsy lump for the first four rounds and was badly outclassed but fought well in the middle rounds, connecting some decent shots and taking the play away from Usyk at times. You could see him thinking and certain things working and that's to be credited because after four rounds he looked like he'd lose every round. Still, Usyk's determination, skill, will etc; saw him dominate late. I had him winning the first four and the last four, and of the middle four rounds he won 1 or 2 of them. I think 117-111 felt like the right score.
3. Usyk is certainly the best fighter in the world, and to my estimation, he's the greatest of his era (Mayweather-Pacquaio being the end of the previous era). He's a special talent and a rare character. Think about this: While it took Canelo years and some subpar GGG performances to put his big boy pants on, take some PED's and fight him, he ran away after getting a gift draw and what most consider a gift "win." Look at how difficult it is to get American fighters to fight tough fights, with the exception of Shawn Porter. Spence-Crawford is already past due. Look at the state of the lightweights, just going to social media while doing nothing. Usyk beat a well-regarded unbeaten champion in Krzysztof Glowacki in his backyard in Poland to win a world title in his 10th fight, beats a good unbeaten American challenger, and now respected heavyweight, Michael Hunter, in America. Enters the WBSS, not knowing who he'd have to fight, and is it went, he beat one of the best cruisers ever in Marco Huck in Germany, his backyard, then beats undefeated Mairis Briedis, adding his second title, in his backyard of Latvia (and look at what Briedis has gone on to achieve since...), then went to Russia to beat undefeated Murat Gassiev, who was on fire and held the other two belts. Usyk shut him out. Then he came to England knocked out Bellew, now he's gone to England again in front of 70,000 fans and put on a clinic against a very big, heavy hitting heavyweight champion, who's younger than him and had three titles. There's no drama with Usyk. He's proof if a fighter wants the fights, the fights happen. No controversial wins, no failed PED tests, no suspicions of PED's, no trash talk, just fights, wins, and looks incredible almost every time. I hope he gets the rematch in Ukraine, as he deserves to fight at home for once.
4. Wilder would be cannon fodder for Usyk, Fury would be a style issue. Usyk is definitely the better boxer than Fury, but Fury has height and reach and knows how to use it, isn't afraid to stink it out. He also doesn't gas, so it's a tall order for Usyk, but he's definitely live in that fight.
My new p4p: 1. Usyk 2. Inoue 3. Crawford 4. Lomachenko* 5. Canelo 6. Taylor 7. Fury 8. Lopez 9. Estrada 10. Spence
* Lomachenko above Lopez? Yeah, he's a better fighter and I'm convinced he'd win a rematch rather easily. He carried an injury which was quite clear and it was a case of Lopez also coupling that injury with a massive size advantage but he didn't really do anything. It was a case of both guys doing nothing, but him doing a bit better at doing nothing for the first half, but then Lomachenko bossing the action when they did fight a little. Canelo, as many know, I'm not as blown away as others. The obvious cheating, plus a lot of gift decisions and now he's just moved up to a really, really weak division as middleweight was hot? That was a shitty move IMO. Beterbiev is on the cusp but I wasn't thrilled with his last performance. Estrada, I love, but think lost to Chocolatito, and has a lot of tread in his tires, especially for the lower weights, but his resume is top notch.
Cracking post. Will digest that.
What do you think the strategy will be if they get the rematch? I don't buy the go at him with bigger mass and duke it out thing, because, even in this fight, if Usyk had enough power, he would have knocked Joshua out with how he was connecting, and if Joshua is then leaning into punches in the next bout, he'll double up the force and trauma and probably get himself knocked out.
Your point 1: there's just no way these big heavies are going to match Usyk for movement and the speed at which he transitions from movement to getting shots off before being on his bike again. I was really surprised he could maintain that for the whole fight as I totally expected him to be spent by the 6th if he even attempted that.
2. has been ridiculous, and it was patently obvious Joshua was making adjustments and having success with them; the problem is Usyk is of the calibre where he will make countering adjustments and again take the upper hand, which is what we saw. He's just too good a boxer for Joshua to keep up with in that regard.
It's weird to see Loma so low in any list, but I guess that's in appreciation of those who are above him for the time being. It's a classy top 5, for sure. Not sure I'd put Usyk 1st, but at the same time, can see the logic in doing so after what he's just done.
Nice to see you posting.
I honestly don’t know what strategy I’d advise to be honest. I’m just sure that his current team aren’t the right team to come up with a strategy. I think his best bet is just trying to utilize his size and hope he land’s something Usyk can’t recover from. But that leaves him open and 9/10 in that type of fight, I’m sure it gets him KO’d.
Usyk has about 100 different ways to fight. Nobody is going to confuse him. He’ll adapt. He’ll only lose because someone is far bigger or he gets old because he’s far too good for fighters of his generation.
Lomachenko looked incredible last time out. It’s been clear he’s undersized at lightweight and he was obviously holding an injury in all those fights. Hope he gets a string of big ones now.
Yeah, I've been thinking about that; I think Usyk will make more adaptations and adjustments than Joshua now that he knows how he moves and thinks and negate a counter strategy out the gate. Being bullish and going all out, will, I think get him K.O'd. I thought he could fight long and behind the jab, but Usyk is far too mobile for that.
Great post. Agree 100% with most. Joshua is a top Heavyweight, but Usyk is technically a brilliant boxer and way to fast, light footed and skillful for all current heavyweights except possibly Fury. Usyk will get KO-ed by a big heavyweight eventually because he’s not a natural heavyweight, but to even get this far after all he achieved at cruiser weight probably puts him at no.1 in the pound for pond stakes. Usyk actually reminds me slightly of a lighter and mentally fat more stable & mature version of a young Mike Tyson, his skill set & speeds was on the same level as Tyson in his prime just as he won his first World title.
The fury love in will end soon. I'm looking forward to that.
Good post.
Nice to see some common sense instead of the usual hyperbolic nonsense you see after a defeat like this.
I'm going to say it but I think Usyk is being massively overrated by some. P4P no.1 and yet not even the best fighter in his, albeit new, weight class. Tony Bellew, in the last fight of his career, was probably beating Usyk until he got caught. Ok that's obviously the nature of boxing, but he's not a knockout artist and is being hyped on his boxing skills, so how can that be? I think people are just getting a bit ahead of themselves because they had AJ down as something he wasn't and AJ served up another poor showing.
I do like Usyk and was impressed with him coming up through Cruiser, but when I watched the Bellew fight I didn't think he would be able to live at HW, even though he got the win. As crazy as that sounds. But kudos on beating AJ. Can't be sniffed at with the danger he poses. But there's no way, for me, he beats Fury. Technically as good as Usyk but a true heavyweight and a very intelligent fighter too.
I do like Usyk and was impressed with him coming up through Cruiser, but when I watched the Bellew fight I didn't think he would be able to live at HW, even though he got the win. As crazy as that sounds. But kudos on beating AJ. Can't be sniffed at with the danger he poses. But there's no way, for me, he beats Fury. Technically as good as Usyk but a true heavyweight and a very intelligent fighter too.
He took his time with Bellew, didn’t take chances, but you could sense he knew he had his man. Great fighters like Salvador Sanchez, Alexis Arguello, Eder Jofre to make just a few we’re notorious for this. They’d take their time and explode when the timing was right.
As I said earlier in the thread, I was surprised at his performance because I thought he was poor vs Chisora.
Who was the bigger hitter, Julian Jackson or McClellan?
I suppose we'll never know exactly what he was thinking, but he didn't look impressive in that fight, in my opinion. He was getting timed and countered by an over the hill Bellew. I don't like Bellew as a person and I've always been reluctant to give him too much credit for that reason, but after the fight I remember saying to my mates that Bellew in his prime would have beat Usyk. And I don't consider Bellew to ever have been a P4P level fighter. Perhaps Usyk finds himself there now on your list because the levels in boxing have dropped a bit the last year or two.
It was to be expected and hinted at after the last fight by him, but Pacquiao has officially retired. One of my favourite boxers, he was absolutely relentless and so quick in his prime.
Manny Pacquiao retires from boxing to focus on political career - BBC Sport
Manny Pacquiao retires from boxing to focus on political career - BBC Sport
Legend.
Fury beat the unbeatable Vlad a man who dominated the division for 10 years. He also STOPPED the unbeatable dangerous Wilder. So effectively beat the guys who were beating everyone else. Their first losses ever or in a decade came through Fury. Wilder and Vlad at the time were bigger than any of AJ opponents
The unbeatable Wilder? When you say everyone else, you mean bums and journeyman. Have you even looked at Wilder's record? It's laughable. How many top 10 boxers had Wilder fought in his 40 fights? Sorry bud but it's not even a contest. The one top name on Fury's record Joshua also fought and beat. And when Joshua fought him he was in better shape and was better prepared. It wasn't just another young pretender, which is how he saw Fury.
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Fury is probably the best fighter in the heavyweight division.
Wilder or AJ wont lay a glove on him.
AJ is a big boy but his boxing skillset is very limited. Had he just worked behind a jab against Usyk he may have had a chance to beat him, but I dont know if youve ever noticed, AJ doesnt like being hit and as soon as he felt Usyk getting through his limited defence he had that look of not knowing how to handle him.
Fury beats Usyk for me.
Wilder was smoke and mirrors. I think he had defeated two top 10 guys, one was a hopeless lump in Stiverne, the other a 40+ year old, Ortiz. Wilder is garbage.
Pacquaio is one of the greatest fighters that ever lived and one of the most entertaining of his era. Fought them all. I’d say he’ll be missed, but he’s not really been Pac-Man to me for a while. I really haven’t been interested in his career since the Marquez fights. Those felt like the end. He never had the same intensity again.
No I watched both fights.
Wow. Ortiz (who was all over him in the second before he gassed) AND Stiverne? You're right, that's basically everybody. What a record!
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I think he's getting sparked next fight v Wilder. Can only play Russian roulette so often.
It would be absolutely hilarious
This Usyk guy looks as cold and calculated as I've ever seen. Just watch his interviews and his general demeanour, he shows zero nerves.
Agree with John Fury. AJ's team let him down... I was wondering at the time when Rob was asking him to stick to the jab, why were they trying to box a superior boxer, that's something I really didn't understand. AJ should have been grabbing him and using his size difference to bully him, make it uncomfortable and break up his rhythm.
Joshua only starting throwing punches with any degree of volume in the fifth round, where he threw 63. By that time, Usyk had already grown into the fight. He was ready for the onslaught and he had four rounds in the bag.
In the earlier rounds, Usyk matched Joshua for volume but was predictably more accurate, so he comfortably took each round while gaining in confidence and punch resistance.
Joshua's only way of winning is simply by swarming Usyk and throwing 60 punches from round one, like Chisora did. I think his problem is either a) he's scared of getting hit, or b) he thinks he's a better boxer than he is (and he is pretty good, just not close to Usyk's level).
Obviously now Usyk is going to know exactly which version of AJ is coming, so it's going to be doubly difficult for AJ to win second time around.
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It would be funny, but unless Wilder has changed his style and game plan that wont happen. Fury is just too good a boxer (technically) and his movement is much better than Wilder’s. Wilder has (literally) a punchers chance in beating Fury. Would be interesting if it happened though.
Joshua hates being hit.
You could see the discomfort in his face once Usyk had landed a few punches.
I dont know why Joshuas corner didnt get him to work behind the jab and then focus on body shots to test Usyk.
I doubt Joshua could learn enough to make a marked difference in the next fight, time will tell. Joshua should be bullying the likes of Usyk and all these other fighters. Is he maybe too scared of being hit?
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My take on it is Joshua was to nice going into the fight, taking selfie’s, fist pumping, hugging, this was exactly what Usyk would have wanted, if you’re going into a boxing match you gotta be nasty especially against a unique boxer like Usyk. He should have jumped on him from round one with a barrage of punches and used his weight to push him down like Klitschko done to Povetkin, roughing him up on the inside and on cliches but the problem with Joshua is he’s always going to gas in championship fights and we seen this in round seven (just as I predicted) then it’s an easy night for Usyk. The long and short of it Joshua has about three good rounds in him to get Usyk out of there like we seen Fury do to Wilder or else he starts to gas. I think he still has a chance in a rematch but a slim one and needs to maybe get rid of McCracken as he’s doing the same robotic shit since the Ruiz defeat, he needs to be raw and hungry like the Klitschko fight.
Shane McGuigan maybe get a tune out of him.
Shane McGuigan maybe get a tune out of him.
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It sounds weird to say but there is an argument to say that from a pure boxing perspective this was one of Joshua's better performances. The problem of course was that Usyk is a superior boxer, his movement is too good for AJ to be able to close the space and apply pressure.
AJ also felt the power of Usyk early in the fight which made him hesitate to exchange, honestly we have seen that from Joshua since the first Ruiz fight, he knows that his punch resistance isn't there.
The only chance I can see for Joshua is to add extra weight and try and take out Usyk in the first 4 or 5 rounds by applying constant pressure, the problem is that Usyk has great feet and has enough ability and power to catch him on the way in, it is a tall ask for Joshua but he can hurt Usyk I feel.
I also feel that Usyk's previous outings at heavyweight were purposely understated, that was no accident. Had he showed what he can do against Chisora there would be no chance Joshua would have faced him so soon as Hearn would have protected him.
I hope Joshua can turn it around but I am not confident that he will.
AJ also felt the power of Usyk early in the fight which made him hesitate to exchange, honestly we have seen that from Joshua since the first Ruiz fight, he knows that his punch resistance isn't there.
The only chance I can see for Joshua is to add extra weight and try and take out Usyk in the first 4 or 5 rounds by applying constant pressure, the problem is that Usyk has great feet and has enough ability and power to catch him on the way in, it is a tall ask for Joshua but he can hurt Usyk I feel.
I also feel that Usyk's previous outings at heavyweight were purposely understated, that was no accident. Had he showed what he can do against Chisora there would be no chance Joshua would have faced him so soon as Hearn would have protected him.
I hope Joshua can turn it around but I am not confident that he will.
He knows his onions and is absolutely spot on. AJ didn't fight to his strengths... madness.
Anyone watching the boxing on Sky?
Didn't know who the ginger pundit was so quick google search.
Turns out George Groves has doubled his weight and got a hair transplant since his retirement.
Didn't know who the ginger pundit was so quick google search.
Turns out George Groves has doubled his weight and got a hair transplant since his retirement.
Yeah I’m watching, first thing I realised too was the hair transplant.
Don’t know what to make of it yet looks professional enough, but only really want to watch Avanesyan not really bothered with the rest.