The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Raoul said:
Wlad was 41, Povetkin is 39. The Parker fight was unimpressive, and he hasn't fought Pulev.

I guess that leaves White ?
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I even forgot on Parker. My point is that Vladimir and Povetkin are tricky fighters. With excellent technique and big reputation. Parker is not too shabby either. Wilder fought only with cannon meat.
It is all about image today. Wilder is the only good fighter from USA so they do everything to keep him on the top. We have fighter Filip Hrgovic who is now in top 15. He has flawless score. But his opponents were disgrace. 2 came from prison, one accepted fight 5 days before match, etc....
Promototers really deserve money in this sport
 
Fortitude said:
Hope this doesn't become a thing on here - it's not even close to being true. Joshua is slow, which is going to make decent hands look fast. Insane hand speed, Ruiz has nothing close to - that'd be a Clay, just converted Ali, young Tyson, a young Bowe and so on and so forth. He is a sloth by comparison.
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Geez man, I didn't say that he is as fast as fastest heavyweights ever.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Ruiz is a much more natural boxer. It’s something he’s done since he was a kid and had far more amateur fights than Joshua. Joshua started relatively late and has been made into a boxer.

Ruiz’ handspeed, counter puncher and heart were impressive but his chin really put him in position. Those were extremely hard shots Joshua landed in round 3 and that hook in round 7 just before Ruiz scored the stoppage would have dropped most. Ruiz didn’t flinch.
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The ability to absorb and retaliate with even stronger rebuttals utterly confused Joshua and really shut him down. I don't think he's experienced that in his career to date and it really messed with his head, well, that and being concussed for the majority of the bout.

Joshua's tank betrayed him and he couldn't keep throwing out the jab with the same intensity, which made him a sitting duck.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
As i said, one match against Fury which was robbery. At least AJ won against Vladimir who despite his age ruled for a decade in a pro boxing and after that AJ beat Povetkin who is also a good fighter. Wilder should be quiet regarding that topic. His pro career is weaker than AJ's. Nevertheless, if/when he beats Fury than he can talk.
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Inter Yer Nan said:
Makes Wilder look bad because he’s the one who rejected the fight and said he wants to marinate it now he’s claiming a victory via Ruiz. Ruiz had more courage than Wilder and has a result now has more belts and a better resume. He also got a major gift against Fury so not sure what his “gift” talk is.

Joshua and Wilder both took Ls last night.
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Wilder is better describing himself in that tweet than AJ. With all his 'I want a body on my record' talk as well he can safely be written off as a total cnut.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Good point. I don't rate Wilder much but he beat Fury who has far better technique than him. He has that killer instinct which again AJ doesn't have.
I don't know, after this fight i have a feeling that i don't know absolutely anything about boxing. Except that i overrated AJ

I only know that Lewis, Tyson or even Klitchko in best days would destroy all boxers today
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I agree I always Lewis especially is under appreciated a bit like Larry Holmes following Ali ,Lewis followed Tyson

He was in my opinion one of the best heavyweights ever and would destroy everyone today with ease in terms of ability
 
lsd said:
I agree I always Lewis especially is under appreciated a bit like Larry Holmes following Ali ,Lewis followed Tyson

He was in my opinion one of the best heavyweights ever and would destroy everyone today with ease in terms of ability
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Quite a bit after Tyson to be fair. They had Holyfield (and quite a few others like Bowe and Foreman) in between as undisputed champions. Lewis was the best of them though (not counting a peak early to mid-seventies Foreman), better than Holyfield, better than Tyson, better than Bowe. Shame that Tyson avoided him for a few years, and Bowe didn't want to fight him at all, it would have been fascinating fights.

Lewis defeats the current heavyweights with ease.
 
Revan said:
:lol::lol::lol:

How good can Ruiz be if he manages to every get in shape?!
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It's genuinely a very interesting question because he's so short. No idea what his ideal physique and fitness would be to compete at heavyweight, with little fat he might just be too light and get bounced around the ring against the proper tall and heavy guys. I also just watched the weigh in and to be fair in the face off he doesn't look that terrible (although he does seem to hold in his belly).

This is what he said about it pre-match, though I guess bluffing is pretty common in those situations and any fighter's going to say he's ready.

 
Still dont know what the commentator was on when he said Joshua was clear eyed after his first knock down as he was anything but and clearly never recovered .

Ruiz seemed clear eyed on his knockdown there was a huge difference between them .

Still would pick Wilder and Fury to beat Ruiz with ease I really dont see anything special in him bar above average hand speed and a decent chin .
 
Henrik Larsson said:
It's genuinely a very interesting question because he's so short. No idea what his ideal physique and fitness would be to compete at heavyweight, with little fat he might just be too light and get bounced around the ring against the proper tall and heavy guys. I also just watched the weigh in and to be fair in the face off he doesn't look that terrible (although he does seem to hold in his belly).

This is what he said about it pre-match, though I guess bluffing is pretty common in those situations and any fighter's going to say he's ready.

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He is not that short, to be fair. While not as tall as the current trio of giants, he is still 1.88 which is as tall as Holyfield, Povetkin and 10cm taller than Mike Tyson. He also can get mass (muscle) without looking like a sumo wrestler.

It is working though, so what do I know?!
 
Raoul said:
The only thing worse are the kneejerkers who suddenly claim AJ is overrated.
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I’m not sure how anyone can deny he’s been overrated. It doesn’t mean he’s a shit boxer - just that the hype was absolutely ridiculous and was probably further exaggerated by his looks and him being one of the kings of the UK‘s Instagram feckboys.

Let’s be frank. Take everything away and just look at his boxing skills. Do you truly believe the hype matches the skills?
 
lsd said:
I agree I always Lewis especially is under appreciated a bit like Larry Holmes following Ali ,Lewis followed Tyson

He was in my opinion one of the best heavyweights ever and would destroy everyone today with ease in terms of ability
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I think both Lewis and Holmes are in the all-time top 5 heavyweights. Very much under appreciated.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
I think both Lewis and Holmes are in the all-time top 5 heavyweights. Very much under appreciated.
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I'd put Lewis, not sure about Holmes. My dead certs are Ali, Louis and Foreman. After that I guess the likes of Frazier, Lewis, Holmes and Liston (in no particular order). Not sure about pre-Louis era, watching the likes of Dempsey in limited footage, and they don't look that great.
 
ivaldo said:
Joshua has never had a great defense. Ruiz beat him because he outboxed him and then had the punching power to finish things off. Wilder can't box so it's still a contest of who lands the big shots first. My money would still be on Joshua. Fury is a much better boxer than Joshua but he has no stopping power, so it'll be a case of whether Fury can avoid Joshuas power punches for 12 rounds. Styles make fights after all, which is why Parker lost to Joshua but beat Luiz (though I still feel Luiz probably won that fight).
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I remember Roach was frustrated after the Wilder fight that Fury held back too much in the fight and he believed that Fury should have tried to use his size advantage to overpower Wilder and get a knockdown. Does anyone think Fury has that in his locker or is it wishful thinking from Roach?
 
BobbyManc said:
I remember Roach was frustrated after the Wilder fight that Fury held back too much in the fight and he believed that Fury should have tried to use his size advantage to overpower Wilder and get a knockdown. Does anyone think Fury has that in his locker or is it wishful thinking from Roach?
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I've wondered this myself but I think the way he fights and flicks out jabs at full reach doesn't lend itself to throwing the power punches. His whole style to me is set up to hit and not be hit, but not necessarily score knock downs. If he changed his style then it would be interesting to see what sort of power he could produce.
 
NYAS said:
I’m not sure how anyone can deny he’s been overrated. It doesn’t mean he’s a shit boxer - just that the hype was absolutely ridiculous and was probably further exaggerated by his looks and him being one of the kings of the UK‘s Instagram feckboys.

Let’s be frank. Take everything away and just look at his boxing skills. Do you truly believe the hype matches the skills?
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I've never really bought into the hype, in fact I've been arguing that AJ could get hurt based on having a suspect chin. His boxing skills are just fine imo. As was mentioned earlier, everyone loses including Ali, Lennox, Tyson etc. AJ will bounce back and go on to bigger and better things.
 
Revan said:
I'd put Lewis, not sure about Holmes. My dead certs are Ali, Louis and Foreman. After that I guess the likes of Frazier, Lewis, Holmes and Liston (in no particular order). Not sure about pre-Louis era, watching the likes of Dempsey in limited footage, and they don't look that great.
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Holmes is much better than Foreman. Even as old fighters I know George won the title but I still think Holmes was better like when he took Ray Mercer to school.

Opinions of course but I probably wouldn’t have Foreman top 5.
 
starman said:
Interested to hear your top 5 heavyweights?
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Ali is my no.1 then there's like 5 to 6 which I can't separate, but I also highly rate some of the older legends like Marciano and Dempsey . Lewis's style and lack of charisma keeps him out of the top tier for me, great HW but I would put him in the same tier as the Klits, Holyfield, Foreman etc. Obviously this is all subjective depending on what you value more, I just never took to Lennox as the fighter or personality.
 
Finally got around to watching the fight, I think the hype and fame has got to Joshua's head, completely disregarded his corners instructions and looked like he thought he would just go in and knock Ruiz out. Dropping his hands and going toe to toe was really dumb, all he needed to do was work the ring and hit body shots not get drawn into a slug fest, you need to wear fighters like Ruiz down and go for the knockout later in the fight or get the points win. This is the wake up call Joshua needs, if they rematch and he's more disciplined he should win.
 
2mufc0 said:
Finally got around to watching the fight, I think the hype and fame has got to Joshua's head, completely disregarded his corners instructions and looked like he thought he would just go in and knock Ruiz out. Dropping his hands and going toe to toe was really dumb, all he needed to do was work the ring and hit body shots not get drawn into a slug fest, you need to wear fighters like Ruiz down and go for the knockout later in the fight or get the points win. This is the wake up call Joshua needs, if they rematch and he's more disciplined he should win.
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Basically do what Klitschko did for years against these smaller fighters
 
Opens up the heavyweight division now but also reinforces just how poor of a division it is. There was always question marks surrounding AJ and now his weaknesses have been exposed by someone who is not elite in my opinion.

I think Fury should fight Ruiz Jr or Dillian Whyte after his Schwarz fight and the winner of that fight should fight the winner of Wilder and Ortiz.

I have seen alot of people claiming now that AJ would have no chance against Wilder and this fight and the Breazeale has led to Wilder becoming overrated IMO. Ortiz had him staggered in the last fight and only a lack of fitness allowed Wilder to recover but fair play, he won. The Fury fight he got outboxed and definitely didn't deserve a draw but again fair play, he scored good knockdowns. Fury needs some big fights and to maintain his fitness to be considered the best heavyweight of this new era.
 
What a fight from Ruiz and fully deserved outcome ! So chuffed for the guy.

I think we should take a moment to appreciate his chin, the lad can sure take a punch. The big left that floored him didn't turn him to jelly like on would have imagined. In the exchange that followed i think he ate another right from AJ just before he dropped him the first time. As for power, Joseph Parker once said Ruiz hit him so hard he couldn't eat for days so yeah there's definitely some juice in those hands. He's such a nice guy i'm so happy he's living the dream, he's created a slice of history that will always be his.

Lord knows what happened to Joshua. Why won't a guy that big with his power and reach not have a jab? If you remember it was the left jab from Parker that revived his chances in the middle rounds. He hit Ruiz with several jabs that knocked his head back. AJ can surely do better with his size. Joshua isn't the kind of fighter who can stand and trade. If he gets hit, he'll go down thats clear from this fight. Imagine what Wilder would have done to him ! I think Joshua needs to go back to the fundamentals, jab, stay out of hitting distance, start throwing more combinations like he used to when he was younger. It's going to be a hard climb all the way back to the top for certain.
 
christy87 said:
Basically do what Klitschko did for years against these smaller fighters
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Klitschko had the stamina to do that steadily for 12 rounds until he got old. Joshua doesn't and his volume either remains reserved and measured throughout a fight, or he will slow down considerably if he is made to work outside of his comfort zone.

Joshua's muscle mass is detrimental to flicking out a tireless deterrent of a jab, doubly so when he absorbs shots and is actually in a fire fight. If an opponent can withstand his power, or simply avoid it completely, Joshua is on a clock to get that guy out of there before he's spent.

I don't see how that changes as he's not going to lose enough mass to make this less of an issue, especially so at his age and with the wealth he now has behind him.
 
People using Ruiz as an example of what Wilder could do to Joshua aren't making any sense. Ruiz, with his short arms and hooking style was using a different shot selection to what Wilder has available to him and also fights in the pocket the whole time (because he has no choice, but to) whereas Wilder is teeing his shots up and setting up the stupid overhand shots from miles out with very little volume.

The issue for Joshua with Wilder always was, and still remains to be, that the speed and torque at the end of a Wilder looping shot in combination with Joshua's lack of head movement and reflexive countering was a recipe for a tremendous, clubbing knockout unless Joshua could shoot out snapping jabs and straights down the middle before Wilder could get his clumsy, but devastating shots off.

It wouldn't be some spectacle of boxing, but a KO could happen at any time, which would make it a 'thrilling' watch. The only thing the Ruiz fight changed was the amount of money any so-called super-fight would generate and I think it serves all 3 them right that a blot in the ointment has messed up the money for all 3 of them. All that posturing and pussyfooting has cost them 100's of millions of dollars and made rematches and trilogies a lot less lucrative than they could or would have been.

We'll get to see what Joshua's made of in the rematch - all that wealth may have changed him. One would hope the humiliation of such a defeat lights a fire under him and gets him to the best version of himself he can be. I think all 3 of them, assuming Joshua gets the belts back, will want to expedite the process of getting fights made, if not to find out who is the best, then to generate as much money as they can before calling it a day. They all need each other; I bet Wilder's tweet was more him thinking 'nooooo! my moneyyyyy!' than bad blood toward Joshua as a human being.

Hopefully Ruiz is the catalyst for the HW division now as his interjection has taken a lot of the power and posturing away from Hearn and I think any of the 3 camps will be more willing to get the fights made - Hearn has to gamble on his cash cow, too, as another loss (especially to Ruiz) will be absolutely financially devastating, but even if he gets the belts back, the only real option now is to go after the blockbuster fights as AJ verses bums is just not going to cut it anymore as his aura has taken a massive knock with that "0" being wiped out in such an emphatic, drawn out manner.
 
Best thing to come out of Ruiz beating Joshua is that it's a big feck you to greedy boxing promoters, waiting year on year for the maximum profit. Maybe now, fight should get made when they're 'supposed' to happen. Somehow I doubt it.
 
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