The RedCafe Boxing Thread

Inter Yer Nan said:
1. I can see some of your point about Foreman though I don't share the talent view. He wasn't overly skilled IMO. I don't know that he was an Ali away from being the best. Jimmy Young boxed his ears off in what was basically his prime. I think Holmes was more talented but it makes sense you'd have Foreman top 5 since he blasted Frazier & Norton not to mention was successful in his comeback.

2. Holyfield never fought as a Light-Heavyweight. He was a Cruiserweight and IMO almost the perfect fighter there and undisputed #1. He'd probably be my #6 at Heavyweight too fwiw.

3. I can see a point for Robinson being #1 for sure. He's arguably (based on my p4p he is) the best fighter that's ever fought there. He did win and lose his title a lot though the competition was high and his middleweight days were past his welterweight best. Monzon was a career middleweight who in 100 fights only failed to beat one foe (a South American draw), reigned for a long and dominant period against mostly quality.

4. I think Leonard is better overall in a p4p sense but had a very limited amount of time at the championship level at that weight. Gavilan was in the golden era and had a ton of depth to his resume though and top hall of fame fighters. Leonard's wins over Benitez and Hearns are extremely great though. I can see your point.

5. Duran gets such a high p4p ranking due in large parts to his dominant lightweight reign but also his unbelievable achievements above lightweight. Beating a prime Leonard at 147, ravaging the 154 title from Moore, incredibly beating Barkley at Middleweight 17 years after the Buchanan win started the lightweight reign.

6. An oversight on my part. I'd have him in my 147 top 5 and I think he's anywhere from 4-6/7 at 126 & 135. His lofty p4p ranking is also based on the simultaneously holding all three titles whilst setting the record number of defenses at 147 in addition to probably having the best back-to-back years in boxing history from 1937-1938.

7. Langford is definitely a "pound for pound" fighter. A lightweight that was a victim of his time but whipped quality all the way from lightweight to heavyweight and often. Very often.

The last points. Ali I can see in the top 10 and don't really complain to see top 5. If we want to split hairs I do think he lost 3x to Norton and was less complete a fighter as the other fighters in my top 10 though he had some incredible attributes others can only dream of having. There's Langford and Leonard film. Leonard especially was ahead of his time. In that case it's a lot of going off what their resumes look like in addition to what was written about them in their day and a half century later when historians had a chance to put them into perspective. Unfortunately there's no fight footage of Greb but on paper his resume is arguably the best ever. I understand your point though which is why I didn't really account for head-to-head mythical matches. Lennox Lewis would be in my top 3 at Heavyweight if it was.
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Thanks for the explanations. For Holyfield, I thought that your light-HW was a merge between it and cruiseweight (when yes, he is the greatest ever). About Foreman, probably talented wasn't the right word from me (if you look at fundamentals, Ali is easily the most talented HW), but he had such a big punch that essentially destroyed everything and his fights against Fraizer and Norton alone should be enough to put him in top 5 IMO. I think that had he beaten Ali, he would have been mentioned as the best HW ever. Personally I have him at #3, below Ali and Louis, but above Liston, Fraizer and others.

Greb for me is the only fighter I've never seen whom I would put in these lists with confidence. His story and career is beyond ridiculous.

Pac and May, not worthy of top 5 in their classes (which essentially means that no fighter of the last 20 years, or 1/6 of the history of 'more modern' boxing is worthy of being considered an all time great)? Sorry, but I just not buy it. It is just an 'everything was better before' syndrome.
 
Revan said:
Thanks for the explanations. For Holyfield, I thought that your light-HW was a merge between it and cruiseweight (when yes, he is the greatest ever). About Foreman, probably talented wasn't the right word from me (if you look at fundamentals, Ali is easily the most talented HW), but he had such a big punch that essentially destroyed everything and his fights against Fraizer and Norton alone should be enough to put him in top 5 IMO. I think that had he beaten Ali, he would have been mentioned as the best HW ever. Personally I have him at #3, below Ali and Louis, but above Liston, Fraizer and others.

Greb for me is the only fighter I've never seen whom I would put in these lists with confidence. His story and career is beyond ridiculous.

Pac and May, not worthy of top 5 in their classes (which essentially means that no fighter of the last 20 years, or 1/6 of the history of 'more modern' boxing is worthy of being considered an all time great)? Sorry, but I just not buy it. It is just an 'everything was better before' syndrome.
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At what weight category am I ranking Pacquaio and Mayweather? The only ones of the classic 8 divisions Mayweather fought in was 135 & 147. He wasn't at 135 that long and frankly only really fought Castillo there and most believe he lost fight I. 147 is arguably the most talented division ever to get in the top 5 is just so difficult. Like I said these modern fighters aren't being punished for being modern for the most part they simply didn't stamp their mark on a single division long enough. Pacquaio is the ultimate case of that - won & very briefly lost his title at 112, didn't fight at 118, had 2 fights at 126, had one fight at 135, so all that's left is 147. Did he really merit a top 5 ranking based on his 147 body of work? Not a chance. Can you even put him above Felix Trinidad there? Surely not? He's a legendary fighter and pound for pound great but he doesn't get in many individual divisional top 10's IMO. Roy Jones has a similar fate IMO. I think he's even better than Pacquaio and Mayweather but was at 160 so little time and at his best at 168 and 175 is incredibly historical too. A hard five to crack.

Foreman IMO lagged behind so many technically but at his best is a very hard match for any Heavyweight in history apart from a 60's Ali and probably a prime Liston. I think Louis was more fundamentally sound than Ali, but Ali more naturally and athletically gifted. Louis had beautiful technique.
 
Thisistheone said:
Interesting stuff again mate @Inter Yer Nan

Would like to see what is your top 10 p4p list for the era 1990-2018?
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Using 1990 as the start of when I can count accomplishments (so not taking into account Holyfield’s Cruiserweight/Pre-Douglas & Chavez before Taylor etc;)

1. Roy Jones
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Floyd Mayweather
5. Manny Pacquaio
6. Juan Manuel Marquez
7. Felix Trinidad
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Joe Calzaghe
10. Lennox Lewis

The bulk of Chavez’ accomplishments were in the 1980’s otherwise he’d be in for sure. Four of “the best pound for pound” based on their skill and ability during that spell were Ricardo Lopez, Mark Johnson, Vasyl Lomachenko and Terence Crawford but Lopez’ opposition is too low, Johnson lost the end of his prime and never got the right fights in his prime. Lomachenko and Crawford are still going and not as accomplished- yet.

James Toney I strongly considered but his inconsistency was baffling. Head to head Id take him over Hopkins at his best for example but his best was so infrequent. Barrera and Morales are very unlucky to miss out but it’s a very, very difficult top 10 to narrow down. Maybe I’d give a different bottom of the list a month from now? My top 6 is set in stone (from that period) but the order probably isn’t.
 
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Great signing. There doing some good stuff Hearn and Dazn. I expect the Bellew fight to be made now.

As for this weekends boxing, I expect Khan to win and dominate and gets his fight against Pac. Can't see Brook getting down to 147 again. He struggled for the Errol Spence fight and has said in the past how difficult it is and that Khan must come up to fight him, which Khan has refused to do.

There's other fights out there for him as well, Garcia rematch (if he wins this weekend), Porter (if he wins), Thurman, Spence Jr, Crawford etc so plenty of options
 
Usyk really is a true marquee signing that a lot of haters said that Hearn couldn't pull off. Will be interesting to see who else he can attract to the stable in the coming months. Really hope it is Mikey Garcia as he has been in discussion with him for a few months now.
 
Roopea said:
Usyk really is a true marquee signing that a lot of haters said that Hearn couldn't pull off. Will be interesting to see who else he can attract to the stable in the coming months. Really hope it is Mikey Garcia as he has been in discussion with him for a few months now.
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I think Garcia will stay a free agent. He does as Al Haymon tells him. Anything is possible though. If Garcia is getting pressure to fight Spence he may move. IMO Mikey isn’t really interested in facing top opponents. He just likes the idea and talking about them.

I’m happy Hearn got Andrade. Andrade-Saunders may turn out a little dull but it’s a very interesting match-up I can’t wait for.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
I think Garcia will stay a free agent. He does as Al Haymon tells him. Anything is possible though. If Garcia is getting pressure to fight Spence he may move. IMO Mikey isn’t really interested in facing top opponents. He just likes the idea and talking about them.

I’m happy Hearn got Andrade. Andrade-Saunders may turn out a little dull but it’s a very interesting match-up I can’t wait for.
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I fear that your right about Mikey that he will stay a free agent.

Yeah Andrade vs Saunders should be a cracker, can't wait for it either.
 
Inter Yer Nan said:
Using 1990 as the start of when I can count accomplishments (so not taking into account Holyfield’s Cruiserweight/Pre-Douglas & Chavez before Taylor etc;)

1. Roy Jones
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Bernard Hopkins
4. Floyd Mayweather
5. Manny Pacquaio
6. Juan Manuel Marquez
7. Felix Trinidad
8. Evander Holyfield
9. Joe Calzaghe
10. Lennox Lewis

The bulk of Chavez’ accomplishments were in the 1980’s otherwise he’d be in for sure. Four of “the best pound for pound” based on their skill and ability during that spell were Ricardo Lopez, Mark Johnson, Vasyl Lomachenko and Terence Crawford but Lopez’ opposition is too low, Johnson lost the end of his prime and never got the right fights in his prime. Lomachenko and Crawford are still going and not as accomplished- yet.

James Toney I strongly considered but his inconsistency was baffling. Head to head Id take him over Hopkins at his best for example but his best was so infrequent. Barrera and Morales are very unlucky to miss out but it’s a very, very difficult top 10 to narrow down. Maybe I’d give a different bottom of the list a month from now? My top 6 is set in stone (from that period) but the order probably isn’t.
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Good list and delighted to see Calzaghe in there, being from Wales he’s one of my favourites. And I know he gets a bad rep in the US for being a slapper but he was an elite fighter imo.

Frank Warren said he is the best post war British boxer and Manny Stewart seeing him live against Kessler was blown away by how good he was.

Amazing stamina, solid chin and great ability to adapt during fights.
 
I don’t really see Usyk as a marquee signing tbh. Guy has 12k Twitter followers. Yes, it’s please boxing fans, but Eddie knows that he needs a proper draw in the US to be taken seriously.
 
Thisistheone said:
Good list and delighted to see Calzaghe in there, being from Wales he’s one of my favourites. And I know he gets a bad rep in the US for being a slapper but he was an elite fighter imo.

Frank Warren said he is the best post war British boxer and Manny Stewart seeing him live against Kessler was blown away by how good he was.

Amazing stamina, solid chin and great ability to adapt during fights.
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Yeah he was a great fighter indeed. That adaptability and stamina you mentioned were out of this world. He never had the prettiest punching technique but his fights were often fun for the most part.

I loved the Kessler fight and the Lacy fight. Lacy was being built up into something I knew he wasn’t and I bet a lot on Calzaghe in that. Reminds me of the hype surrounding Wilder who’s just not that good.

I think he is the greatest British fighter post-war though a lot tend to say Lewis because his fights were of a higher profile. Ken Buchanan would probably be in that discussion if not for the misfortune of meeting Duran. He was a great fighter too.
 
I know people love RJJ and he made it look so easy for a decade or so. But also post BHop and Toney it's just a list of nothingness....even if both those wins were phenomenal and both would also be pretty high on a modern P4P list. I certainly would of liked the BHop rematch between 00-03 though, BHop gained so much after the RJJ loss and his experience was one of his finer assets, would of been an intriguing fight.

Maybe I can put him above Manny - who did manage to kind of adapt once that speed went and picked up some respectable wins, though I'm pretty certain he's close to a similar Enzo style embarrassment if he continues to roll - wouldn't be surprised if it'd be Amir too. That'd be annoying but whatever.

I'd probably go against you and have Lewis above Calzaghe on the British side too...tough one for me to do too, but forget beating Holyfield and Tyson past prime maybe and clawing his way to a win of Vitali - avenged his losses in style, beat Razor, didn't even give Golota the chance to DQ himself via lowblows, lot of good names on his resume in the 90's. Naseem would round up a top 3 for me in my British lifetime - yes above Ricky Hatton.
 
Zen said:
I know people love RJJ and he made it look so easy for a decade or so. But also post BHop and Toney it's just a list of nothingness....even if both those wins were phenomenal and both would also be pretty high on a modern P4P list. I certainly would of liked the BHop rematch between 00-03 though, BHop gained so much after the RJJ loss and his experience was one of his finer assets, would of been an intriguing fight.

Maybe I can put him above Manny - who did manage to kind of adapt once that speed went and picked up some respectable wins, though I'm pretty certain he's close to a similar Enzo style embarrassment if he continues to roll - wouldn't be surprised if it'd be Amir too. That'd be annoying but whatever.

I'd probably go against you and have Lewis above Calzaghe on the British side too...tough one for me to do too, but forget beating Holyfield and Tyson past prime maybe and clawing his way to a win of Vitali - avenged his losses in style, beat Razor, didn't even give Golota the chance to DQ himself via lowblows, lot of good names on his resume in the 90's. Naseem would round up a top 3 for me in my British lifetime - yes above Ricky Hatton.
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Yeah I’d have Hamed over Hatton and possibly even Froch too. The latter is tough because Hatton was THE true champion at 140 and Froch never was in his division but his list of quality competition is deep. Froch had good longevity.

Regarding Jones. I was never a fan of him but he was the only fighter I ever considered unbeatable (obviously nobody is but still..) and don’t forget he also wiped the floor with Virgil Hill and Reggie Johnson. Those were excellent fighters he made look like bums. He made fighters look a lot worse than they were and then in his twilight he made some fighters look much better than they were much like Tyson.
 
:lol:Sending a message...
 
If you listen carefully, you can hear Kahn's chin at the beginning of this video.

 
Khan looks pudgy and flat-footed. No mo' Virgil quickness
 
Who would win this on points?
 
Wobbled there right at the end.

Vargas is impressing me more than khan.
 
Khan is gonna lose this
 
Khan is a lucky Mother F#£$%r. Khan vs anyone in the top bracket is way way way off.
 
Good workout for Khan but future opponents will have no fear.
 
Khan can never be let in a ring with Spence, that would be certified murder.

Edit: wouldn't even fancy him against current Manny on this performance.
 
DWelbz19 said:
Can’t say anything less in a Khan fight to be fair!
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He's top of the pile when it comes to entertainment value. He's easy on the eyes and you know a knockout is always just around the corner.
 
Enjoyed watching that. Credit to Vargas for withstanding the early blows.

Khan would lose fighting like this against Brook.
 
Fair play to Vargas, obviously not on Khan's level but a tough bastard who can take a shot or two.
 
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