The Reality Draft: Round 1 - harms vs Joga Bonito

[Joga Bonito]

Which was a great pick, he was a beast. We are all familiar with Keano but Lerby was equally mental and more talented on the ball. You could argue Keano had a greater influence on the rest of the team, maybe down to him being a cnut.

In fact, you just reminded me of what I wanted to post about Simonsen before he jetted of to Argentina (). Didn't want the face parade to ring any bells.

The video the Danish team made wishing a quick recovery to Simonsen when he broke his leg during the Euros. I don't speak Danish so have no idea what they are saying, but you get the gist of it being probably the gayest thing in football history. It just had to come from that odd yet brilliant bunch of players

Tell me about it, I had Ossie feckin Ardiles Tevez'bolad...



And to think I had seen it all with the Neymar episode at the WC 2014....

It's just sad that such a brilliant team doesn't get the recognition it deserved.

 

[antohan]

I don't think Argentina 78, Italy 82 etc had a specialist playmaker, right?

Antognoni? But yeah, not a fixture. Both sides had a libero who concerned himself with linking up and facilitating transition. That's my point, Koeman is doing that here. It's still an asset to have a capable playmaker in midfield though, e.g. if the rival sits back you don't want to be playmaking from deep.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Antognoni? But yeah, not a fixture. Both sides had a libero who concerned himself with linking up and facilitating transition. That's my point, Koeman is doing that here. It's still an asset to have a capable playmaker in midfield though, e.g. if the rival sits back you don't want to be playmaking from deep.

The ting is, the onus of scoring is on Blokhin which means that it is upto Carlos to man that flank with support from Bonhof who is best placed to do that. That kind of leaves Falcao with support for Stielike and Bergkamp who I think is better as Second Striker rather than a AM as he is positioned here. Not exactly ideal. I agree with your views on Stielike and Falcao, but the support form Bonhof and Bergkamp does not gel well, imo.

On the other hand, you have Baggio who's favourite play is to run in from the left middle and roam all around the box against Varane. That means Stielike should be concentrating more on sweeping more than supporting Falcao.

Both these, I think add to a advantage to JG.

Or maybe I should go back to 'whatever I must be smoking'

 

[antohan]

The ting is, the onus of scoring is on Blokhin which means that it is upto Carlos to man that flank with support from Bonhof who is best placed to do that. That kind of leaves Falcao with support for Stielike and Bergkamp who I think is better as Second Striker rather than a AM as he is positioned here. Not exactly ideal. I agree with your views on Stielike and Falcao, but the support form Bonhof and Bergkamp does not gel well, imo.

On the other hand, you have Baggio who's favourite play is to run in from the left middle and roam all around the box against Varane. That means Stielike should be concentrating more on sweeping more than supporting Falcao.

If I understood that right, you are talking about the attacking (in possession) phase first and then defensive (not in possession). Stielike will move to midfield in the former and free up Falcao to stir things up, while he will drop into defence in the latter. I don't see any inconsistency or gelling issue there tbh.

Re: Bergkamp, I see him more as a false 9 that drops deep to build up, with Blokhin the referencia de área but not a static target man, Ortiz + the fullbacks as wide alternatives, then Falcao's surging runs. I think he'll enjoy pulling strings there, very much so and may pop up with a goal for himself as well.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Antognoni? But yeah, not a fixture. Both sides had a libero who concerned himself with linking up and facilitating transition. That's my point, Koeman is doing that here. It's still an asset to have a capable playmaker in midfield though, e.g. if the rival sits back you don't want to be playmaking from deep.

Like you've stated it is clearly an asset to have a playmaking midfielder and any team would love to have a Didi, Xavi or a Falcao in the middle but it isn't really a necessity or a pre-requisite for a team to function. @Edgar Allan Pillow aptly stated there have been great teams without a pure playmaker in the middle dictating things especially if you have a lot of great passers in your side. Off the top of my head I can think of the United side mid 90s which had Ince and Keane (underrated passer but by no means a playmaker) in the middle and the Chelsea side of mid nougthies which had Makelele, Essien and Lampard in the middle. And it is not like I am playing with 2 limited destroyers like Gattuso and Gallego in the middle. So I don't believe it is a key issue here.

If the rival sits back I can see Baggio and Figo dropping slightly deeper to get the ball and create openings with their crisp passing and dribbling. Don't think it would be the best idea to cede the initiative to these two buggers.

 

[harms]

The ting is, the onus of scoring is on Blokhin which means that it is upto Carlos to man that flank with support from Bonhof who is best placed to do that. That kind of leaves Falcao with support for Stielike and Bergkamp who I think is better as Second Striker rather than a AM as he is positioned here. Not exactly ideal. I agree with your views on Stielike and Falcao, but the support form Bonhof and Bergkamp does not gel well, imo.

On the other hand, you have Baggio who's favourite play is to run in from the left middle and roam all around the box against Varane. That means Stielike should be concentrating more on sweeping more than supporting Falcao.

Both these, I think add to a advantage to JG.

Or maybe I should go back to 'whatever I must be smoking'

I'm quite drunk myself, but you're talking about me defending and, suddenly, all of my guys that are involved in defending aren't capable of supporting the attack? Is this how the football works? I'm not sure. Though, again, I will rethink that tomorrow.

 

[harms]

I don't think Argentina 78, Italy 82 etc had a specialist playmaker, right?

Italy 82 had a very special system, which @Annahnomoss explained us in previous game, if I'm not mistaken. Joga's best defender is on the level of Annah's (and Italy's) worst, probably - and so, to be fair, is mine. They won it because they were flawless in defense.

Would made an excuse for Argentina 78 tomorrow.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Italy 82 had a very special system, which @Annahnomoss explained us in previous game, if I'm not mistaken. Joga's best defender is on the level of Annah's (and Italy's) worst, probably - and so, to be fair, is mine. They won it because they were flawless in defense.

Would made an excuse for Argentina 78 tomorrow.

Well tbf, Annahnomoss's team has a terrific defense and probably the best defense in the draft. Most defenses would pale in comparison to that great Italian defense. Also think you are underrating Ruggeri and Sanchis a tad bit here.

 

[antohan]

And it is not like I am playing with 2 limited destroyers like Gattuso and Gallego in the middle. So I don't believe it is a key issue here.

If the rival sits back I can see Baggio and Figo dropping slightly deeper to get the ball and create openings with their crisp passing and dribbling. Don't think it would be the best idea to cede the initiative to these two buggers.

Agree, absolutely. Both are probably underrated as far as their ability to pick a pass is concerned, De Rossi for being seen too much as pure DM and Lerby out of ignorance. As you say, you definitely have an outball and Baggio/Figo can drop if needed. I see what the intention was there, particularly with Ardiles before you were forced into De Rossi.

 

[antohan]

Currently tied 11-11. Woo-hoo!

 

[sajeev]

Currently tied 11-11. Woo-hoo!

make it 12-11 to harms

 

[antohan]

I wouldn't mind getting Kaltz...

 

[harms]

Well tbf, Annahnomoss's team has a terrific defense and probably the best defense in the draft. Most defenses would pale in comparison to that great Italian defense. Also think you are underrating Ruggeri and Sanchis a tad bit here.

I was exaggerating, of course, but there is a reason that only a very few teams without playmakers in the middle were really successful. And of course you have a very neat passers in the middle, I just think that Falcao factor gets a little overlooked.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Two good teams, with their own interpretation of a five man defense. Joga has Koeman as a sweeper, which means he has three central defenders up against 0 actual strikers. Harms is really portraying the reasons to why a libero was so popular in these 5 man formations, end up facing the wrong opposition and you are tactically wounded - like Joga is now.

When Baggio drops deep, Stielike will do the same to avoid having three centre backs up against just one forward. Bernat is a big liability in this match up, he really needed Figo on his side to help him defensively, now it looks like a weakness to me.

Baggio/Weah will surely create a goal but the route down the flank will be very vulnerable and with Bergkamp and Blohkin centrally it is bound to lead to several goals.

 

[crappycraperson]

harms (15) - antohan, crappycraperson, Pat_Mustard, sajeev, BorisDeLeFora, manikandan nair, Hojoon, Isotope, Annahnomoss, MTR, fontaine,

Joga Bonito (11)- Sky1981, Cutch, Mighty Boosh, Paolo Di Canio, Thisistheone, Edgar Allan Pillow, VivaJanuzaj, the hea, Kazi ,2mufc0,

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

harms (15) - antohan, crappycraperson, Pat_Mustard, sajeev, BorisDeLeFora, manikandan nair, Hojoon, Isotope, Annahnomoss, MTR, fontaine,

Joga Bonito (11)- Sky1981, Cutch, Mighty Boosh, Paolo Di Canio, Thisistheone, Edgar Allan Pillow, VivaJanuzaj, the hea, Kazi ,2mufc0,

Seems like theres still plenty of managers' votes to decide this one with 3 hours to go..

 

[Joga Bonito]

Yeah looks like this one is going right down the wire. Won't mind if either side wins to be fair. Both are excellent teams and I don't think there is much in it.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two good teams, with their own interpretation of a five man defense. Joga has Koeman as a sweeper, which means he has three central defenders up against 0 actual strikers. Harms is really portraying the reasons to why a libero was so popular in these 5 man formations, end up facing the wrong opposition and you are tactically wounded - like Joga is now.

When Baggio drops deep, Stielike will do the same to avoid having three centre backs up against just one forward. Bernat is a big liability in this match up, he really needed Figo on his side to help him defensively, now it looks like a weakness to me.

Baggio/Weah will surely create a goal but the route down the flank will be very vulnerable and with Bergkamp and Blohkin centrally it is bound to lead to several goals.

Wouldn't mind that as it would give all the room needed for Koeman and Sanchis to leave their mark on the game with their incisive passing and don't forget they were more than capable of going forward with the ball.


Not with Manolo Sanchis and Lerby helping him out in his flank, no he isn't. And a lot of you seem to be seriously underrating his defensive ability. He might seem extremely attacking but isn't exactly that easy or non-existent. There was a reason why they converted him into a wing-back when he quite clearly was excellent as a winger. He is defensively alright and can look after himself. I am pretty sure if I went for an alternative like Shaw many would be claiming Oh he isn't attacking enough, not fit enough and he wouldn't be suitable as a left-wing back etc.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Wouldn't mind that as it would give all the room needed for Koeman and Sanchis to leave their mark on the game with their incisive passing and don't forget they were more than capable of going forward with the ball.


Not with Manolo Sanchis and Lerby helping him out in his flank, no he isn't. And a lot of you seem to be seriously underrating his defensive ability. He might seem extremely attacking but isn't exactly that easy or non-existent. There was a reason why they converted him into a wing-back when he quite clearly was excellent as a winger. He is defensively alright and can look after himself. I am pretty sure if I went for an alternative like Shaw many would be claiming Oh he isn't attacking enough, not fit enough and he wouldn't be suitable as a left-wing back etc.

I didn't mean liability as in not good enough, just in a very exposed situation against a wing-back and a winger. He has the hardest role on the pitch for your side, he's your worst player. Cafu wouldn't have been able to do the role Bernat is expected to do flawlessly, he'd be reliant on the CB trio to help him out nwo and again too.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Very good match, this - very good thread.

To me this is pretty much even-steven, but I'm going to factor in everything here and vote for Joga. Both managers have argued very well, though - grand job by the pair of 'em.

 

[Balu]

I didn't mean liability as in not good enough, just in a very exposed situation against a wing-back and a winger. He has the hardest role on the pitch for your side, he's your worst player. Cafu wouldn't have been able to do the role Bernat is expected to do flawlessly, he'd be reliant on the CB trio to help him out nwo and again too.

To be fair, Carlos faces the same problem against Figo and Cafu. And Kaltz should at least have an eye on Baggio exploiting the space behind him with only Varane covering there, who has all the potential in the world, but his actual performance level over the last 2 seasons is really overrated on the Caf and he's mainly judged on his best games and not on his consistent performances. I doubt anyone gives Bernat the same benefit of the doubt.

 

[crappycraperson]

harms (15) - antohan, crappycraperson, Pat_Mustard, sajeev, BorisDeLeFora, manikandan nair, Hojoon, Isotope, Annahnomoss, MTR, fontaine,

Joga Bonito (15)- Sky1981, Cutch, Mighty Boosh, Paolo Di Canio, Thisistheone, Edgar Allan Pillow, VivaJanuzaj, the hea, Kazi ,2mufc0,Raes, Chester

 

[Joga Bonito]

I didn't mean liability as in not good enough, just in a very exposed situation against a wing-back and a winger. He has the hardest role on the pitch for your side, he's your worst player. Cafu wouldn't have been able to do the role Bernat is expected to do flawlessly, he'd be reliant on the CB trio to help him out nwo and again too.

Fair enough then.

Very good match, this - very good thread.

To me this is pretty much even-steven, but I'm going to factor in everything here and vote for Joga. Both managers have argued very well, though - grand job by the pair of 'em.

Cheers mate. Been an excellent match so far.

 

[Joga Bonito]

To be fair, Carlos faces the same problem against Figo and Cafu. And Kaltz should at least have an eye on Baggio exploiting the space behind him with only Varane covering there, who has all the potential in the world, but his actual performance level over the last 2 seasons is really overrated on the Caf and he's mainly judged on his best games and not on his consistent performances. I doubt anyone gives Bernat the same benefit of the doubt.

I've given up trying to defend Bernat mate. Some think he is this gung-ho all out attack winger who is not going to contribute to the defensive phase of the game at all. I don't understand how many view Jordi Alba as one of the best full-backs in the world and then consider Bernat, who has a very similar style to Alba's defending, as weak and he is not even playing as a full-back in a back 4 here. And then completely go on to ignore Roberto Carlos who was a good defender but had a tendency to get caught out of position further up the pitch, more often than not.

 

[Balu]

To be fair, comparing Bernat with Jordi Alba doesn't do him any favour when it comes to defending . I've never understood the hype around Alba, he had a great Euro in 2012, but was never really forced to defend and has been average at best for Barca since the move. I really hope Bernat turns out to be a better player or I don't want him to start at Bayern at all. He has big shoes to fill, if Alaba stays in midfield.

 

[Joga Bonito]

To be fair, comparing Bernat with Jordi Alba doesn't do him any favour when it comes to defending . I've never understood the hype around Alba, he had a great Euro in 2012, but was never really forced to defend and has been average at best for Barca since the move. I really hope Bernat turns out to be a better player or I don't want him to start at Bayern at all. He has big shoes to fill, if Alaba stays in midfield.

Yeah Alba is not the greatest of defenders but I'm just saying how many perceive Alba to be an excellent full-back and then just regard Bernat as a weakness. Tbf Alba has been pretty good for Barcelona. Don't worry Bernat would become good enough for Bayern, he certainly has the ability and potential despite his okayish start and many believe he will overtake Alba soon enough.

 

[Annahnomoss]

To be fair, Carlos faces the same problem against Figo and Cafu. And Kaltz should at least have an eye on Baggio exploiting the space behind him with only Varane covering there, who has all the potential in the world, but his actual performance level over the last 2 seasons is really overrated on the Caf and he's mainly judged on his best games and not on his consistent performances. I doubt anyone gives Bernat the same benefit of the doubt.

Blohkin was a winger who worked hard though. He will help his wing out similar to Figo on the other side. So Carlos and Blohkin are a much better defensive unit than Bernat is alone.

 

[Balu]

Blohkin was a winger who worked hard though. He will help his wing out similar to Figo on the other side. So Carlos and Blohkin are a much better defensive unit than Bernat is alone.

Don't think he can really track back all the way and play this inside forward role, he's the player closest to goal in harms' set-up, not a winger.

 

[harms]

Don't think he can really track back all the way and play this inside forward role, he's the player closest to goal in harms' set-up, not a winger.

He won't track all the way back, of course, but he wasn't freed of defensive duties under Lobanovsky, and was comfortable, while being the main goal threat anyway.

Figo isn't playing on the wing though, which, I think, is wrong decision, but it's not my team

 

[Annahnomoss]

Don't think he can really track back all the way and play this inside forward role, he's the player closest to goal in harms' set-up, not a winger.

I see it more as a 4-1-2-3 with a false-9 type of formation. I think Figo/Blohkin/Ortiz will do a defensive job out wide. For me the arrow just means that in the offense he will be looking to make runs in to the box.

 

[Annahnomoss]

He won't track all the way back, of course, but he wasn't freed of defensive duties under Lobanovsky, and was comfortable, while being the main goal threat anyway.

Figo isn't playing on the wing though, which, I think, is wrong decision, but it's not my team

Comfortable? He was a boody beast in his work. Like I said Figo level in terms of helping out in the defense.

 

[Balu]

He won't track all the way back, of course, but he wasn't freed of defensive duties under Lobanovsky, and was comfortable, while being the main goal threat anyway.

Figo isn't playing on the wing though, which, I think, is wrong decision, but it's not my team

Lobanovsky pretty much introduced pressing to modern football. Blokhin did a lot of work in putting pressure on defenders, of course. I'd see his role similar to Villa's with Messi as a false 9, and there's no way you can play that inside forward role while also tracking your fullback, who in this case is Cafu. You can't seriously tell me that Carlos won't face problems here and doesn't need signicant help from Varane or one of the midfielders.

 

[Balu]

I see it more as a 4-1-2-3 with a false-9 type of formation. I think Figo/Blohkin/Ortiz will do a defensive job out wide. For me the arrow just means that in the offense he will be looking to make runs in to the box.

Blokhin is his biggest goalthreat in this set-up. You simply don't want him to track Cafu's runs, that just won't work unless you take a lot away from his impact in attack. Sorry, I don't buy this at all. I agree that Bernat is in trouble here and needs help from the centerback next to him or midfield, but so does Carlos, maybe even more.

 

[Balu]

I voted for harms, by the way. Sorry Joga Bonito. It's really, really close, but in the end, I think the Stielike, Bonhof, Falcao combination gives him the edge, slightly more control in midfield.

 

[Joga Bonito]

So let me get this right, Blokhin and Oritz track back a bit to help with defensive duties and Bergkamp as a false 9 dropping deep and roaming more often than not??? That sounds really to execute and your attack will surely suffer as a result imo. You could do with a reference point in your attack like Weah for me.

 

[harms]

@Balu quoting doesn't work from my phone somehow. Of course he would need some help - that's why he has Ruggeri (why Varane?) and Bonhof near.

Blokhin won't track back to the left back position, but he would offer some help (a lot) to Carlos, a help that Bernat is supposed to get from who? Baggio? Lerby, who is a beast, but has his hands full with Falcao and Bergkamp in the middle?

 

[Joga Bonito]

I voted for harms, by the way. Sorry Joga Bonito. It's really, really close, but in the end, I think the Stielike, Bonhof, Falcao combination gives him the edge, slightly more control in midfield.

No problem mate. I know it could go either way.

 

[Balu]

@Balu quoting doesn't work from my phone somehow. Of course he would need some help - that's why he has Ruggeri (why Varane?) and Bonhof near.

Blokhin won't track back to the left back position, but he would offer some help (a lot) to Carlos, a help that Bernat is supposed to get from who? Baggio? Lerby, who is a beast, but has his hands full with Falcao and Bergkamp in the middle?

Oops, that was an honest mistake, of course it's Ruggeri.

He has a pretty good centerback next to him and without a central striker occupying his defenders, there's a lot of room to help out, something that you can't allow your defenders against his attack. You need your midfielders out wide a lot more than he does.

 

[harms]

So let me get this right, Blokhin and Oritz track back a bit to help with defensive duties and Bergkamp as a false 9 dropping deep and roaming more often than not??? That sounds really to execute and your attack will surely suffer as a result imo. You could do with a reference point in your attack like Weah for me.

Oh, quoting worked.
Ortiz isn't tracking back much, he doesn't need to anyway. Blokhin is playing his best role - he always provided help to left back, while continuing to be the main goal threat, that's why he is the best Soviet player ever - something Cruyffesque but on the flank

 

[harms]

It's going to penalties so far? Can't count properly as I'm on my phone