Well. Yes - but if we're doing the defensive liability thing it should probably be pointed out that Kaltz was a decidedly offensive fullback. In fairness, I mean.
The Reality Draft: Round 1 - harms vs Joga Bonito
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
Well. Yes - but if we're doing the defensive liability thing it should probably be pointed out that Kaltz was a decidedly offensive fullback. In fairness, I mean.
I dont't like to bad-mouth about a young and promising but I will go ahead and do it anyway route eh?
You have to take the fact that Valencia weren't exactly in a great shape last season into account here. Heck if Pep Guardiola and Bayern fecking Munich regard him to be good enough to buy him and start for them in a 3-4-3 then I am not going to question his talent and potential.
Fair enough, if I pointed at Keown, I shouldn't argue about Kaltz
By the way - I meant (above) why Bonhof when you already have both Kaltz and Carlos? That makes it look as though you clearly wanted to use him as a DM/CM regardless of opposition - which seems a bit odd. Not arguing against your use of him in this particular match - just curious in general.
I dont't like to bad-mouth about a young and promising but I will go ahead and do it anyway route eh?
You have to take the fact that Valencia weren't exactly in a great shape last season into account here. Heck if Pep Guardiola and Bayern fecking Munich regard him to be good enough to buy him and start for them in a 3-4-3 then I am not going to question his talent and potential.
That's the thing - I don't question his talent and potential, I question his peak at the moment. I have a very little doubt that he would become a great player, but Guardiola has a history of introducing to the world young and unproven players and to overlook relatively old ones who aren't capable of learning philosophy. It worked out nicely so far, but it's a strategy, not tactics.
Last edited:
I didn't want to use him as a DM firstly, but as a CM with a license to provide width if needed. I rate him higher as a CM than as a wingback, actually - not a popular opinion here, I see. And I feel that I can use a player of his versatility, who is brilliant at man-marking, actual defending, has a hell of a shot and is a nice and proven passer. And he can play as a CM, DM, RWB, CB, RW - very useful player to have with all those tevezobolas and riofls
Tbf Roberto Carlos was more of a defensive liability than Kaltz. Carlos has the tendency to get caught out of position with his extremely adventurous style. Cafu is also a marauding forward-thinking wing-back but the difference being that he had the sheer stamina and work-rate to get back into defensive positions, at least better than Roberto Carlos anyway. That is why I think Cafu would have the edge on Carlos in that flank.
I don't really see the problem. I always considered him as a wide box to box midfielder, never really as a wingback (even though he played it at times). I'd be very surprised if overall his best position isn't seen as a midfielder by most Germans.
Come on, Bayern could just ditch Bernat as the wing-back and play Alaba there or even revert to a 4 at the back with Alaba as lb. I can only recall a single game so far in which Bernat hasn't started. The fact that he is starting most of their games instead of that, shows what you know about his peak. Anyway I think he was better at Valencia than Bayern as of now but he is still a 21 year old settling into a foreign league and getting used to Guardiola's philosophy.
Well, I guess that's the thing with all the youngsters in this drafts - we all have our own opinion about them based on what matches we've seen and how high do we think their ceiling is, never mind their actually ability at the time.
I quite liked him at Valencia and I think that he will surpass Alba in a few years (being very similar in style I do think that Bernat is more talented), but I think that you gave him the role that he isn't capable to fulfill now, as he is the only man on the flank.
I think I should stop talking about him though, as I won't say nothing new and it would be just propaganda, not an actual discussion
Interesting. I've always thought of him as a) a (central) midfielder in '74 but b) mainly a wide man. But I'm a) not German and b) no expert on Bonhof.
He was mainly a right sided player, though - wasn't he? Both as a wingback and as a midfielder? If he can be considered as a "partner" of sorts for Overath in '74, then he certainly operated mainly on Overath's right side...right?
I think "liability" should be understood in relative terms here - which was my starting point, going back to Koeman. We're talking about excellent footballers who operated as defenders (both centrally and wide) for top class teams. So, generally, they weren't really liabilities. Not even Carlos was that - if anything he is bound to be completely underrated as a defender because of his conspicuous qualities as an attacking player.
But as a player who would significantly help in bailing out an inexperienced lad at the back, Kaltz is hardly the best example. Nor would Roberto Carlos be a plausible man to hail as a rock solid defender. All is relative, as the man said.
I think he played on both sides, didn't really care that much about it. If my memory doesn't play tricks on me, then he actually played left wingback in the European Cup final against Liverpool for example.
/edit:
I love spielverlagerung, they are so reliable whenever I need a formation graphic
I wouldn't really call that the usual line-up for Gladbach, but most of their players were really versatile, almost total football like.
He played on the left here. He had no problem with that left/right nonsense, even he was, naturally, a right-sided player
Indeed - that's the thing. Watching matches - full matches - from that era, makes you aware of this aspect.
I like those graphics myself - much better than what is usually offered. Thanks, man.
Here's a good interview, Bonhof talks about his style of play a bit (especially against Muller). In German, sadly, though not surprising at all.
Hehe - can't blame the man for that! Thank you, I'm going to grab a beer and read it. I've read some German in my time, having studied philosophy and other pointless subjects in my time - so I'm not a complete novice. It's easier for me to read Schopenhauer than Bild, though, due to colloquialisms and whatnot.
I understood about 80% myself, sadly.
There is a fascinating part that maybe isn't fascinating at all and it's just my imagination plus my rusty German.
Maybe @Balu will help? Is there a slight dig at Muller here?
Wie lief das bei den Bayern?
Rainer Bonhof: Bei denen hat der Bulle, Bernd Dürnberger oder Rainer Zobel den Ball nach vorne getrieben, dann wurde im Doppelpass über die Flügel gespielt, und solange der Dicke vorne drin stand, gab es fast immer einen Abschluss.
Franz Roth: Da brauchten wir uns keine Sorgen zu machen. Der Dicke machte fast immer sein Ding, auch wenn er mit Berti (Vogts, d. Red.) einen gehörigen Wadenbeißer gegen sich hatte.
Von diesem Duell hing vermutlich viel ab?
Rainer Bonhof: Absolut. Wobei man sagen muss, dass der Gerd in Mönchengladbach des Öfteren als Abwehrspieler auflief.
Gerd Müller in der Abwehr?
Rainer Bonhof: Naja, ich habe jedenfalls mal mitbekommen, wie der Gerd einmal in der Abwehr auftauchte und der Franz ihm zurief: »Was willst du denn hier? Geh’ nach vorne.« Darauf antwortete der Dicke: »Ich mag nicht mehr. Geh’ du doch nach vorne und spiel’ gegen den Berti ...«
Was just about to translate a few of the comments, there are quite a few gems in there
.The one you quoted is no dig at Müller, quite the opposite. But it's a joke. Roth talks about Müller's importance and adds that Vogts was a terrier against him.
Bonhof then adds:" Yeah, but you have to add, that Gerd quite often played defender against Gladbach"
Interviewer: Gerd Müller in defense?
Bonhof: Well, at least I've watched Gerd staying in defense and Franz asking him:"What are you doing here, go forward." Gerd's answer:"I don't want anymore, you can go and play against Berti".
The interview is brilliant, but it doesn't really tell a lot about Bonhof's playing style. It's just a brilliant conversation between Franz Roth and Bonhof about the Bayern - Gladbach rivalry in the 70's with many great stories.
Balu can confirm it - but I reckon that's more of a joke and a tribute to Vogts than a dig at Müller.
I even read something about the Liverpool keeper ducking to avoid a Bonhof freekick. He had some shot on him didn't he. Was even contemplating picking between him and Lerby early on during the draft picks but ultimately decided to go with Lerby.
Was just about to translate a few of the comments, there are quite a few gems in there
The one you quoted is no dig at Müller, quite the opposite. But it's a joke. Roth talks about Müller's importance and adds that Vogts was a terrier against him.
Bonhof then adds:" Yeah, but you have to add, that Gerd quite often played defender against Gladbach"
Interviewer: Gerd Müller in defense?
Bonhof: Well, at least I've watched Gerd staying in defense and Franz asking him:"What are you doing here, go forward." Gerd's answer:"I don't want anymore, you can go and play against Berti".
The interview is brilliant, but it doesn't really tell a lot about Bonhof's playing style. It's just a brilliant conversation between Franz Roth and Bonhof about the Bayern - Gladbach rivalry in the 70's with many great stories.
Yep, I meant that - the dig isn't the right word here. So my German isn't that bad after all (English is
). I meant slight dig as a friendly joke, not as an actual criticism.There wasn't a lot about a playing style, but I referred to the point where he talked how he try to mark Muller out of the game - it's a lot like what I want from him in this game.
Yep, it was Ray Clemence. He scored against him in international friendly in February and then against Liverpool in April, apparently he was scared as hell for the second one
Last edited:
Yeah, Bonhof confirms that he usually played a central role, either as an additional defender or as a defensive midfielder to help mark Gerd Müller out of the game. That's true.
Good choice in my opinion. Lerby was a beast, great great player and his career definitely doesn't lack great stories.
Yup a brilliant and colorful character. I found this on the net which summed him up better than I ever could so I shamefully decided to plagiarize/edit it for my write-ups. Will just post it again since I'm sure some would have skipped through it.
Søren Lerby was at the height of his powers in 1986, representing a terrifying cocktail of an impressive psyche, footballing ability and a will to win bordering on the brink of insanity. With this man you could count on every last inch of blood being sacrificed for the sake of the victory. Nothing was more important. And if the team mates wouldn't follow him to the end and obey his every order as the leader he was born to be, they might as well just feck off for all he cared. A strutting ego of pride and determination encapsulated this midfield Viking who never backed down for anyone. Playing without shin pads as it was still possible in the 80's, he would come charging into anyone who would stand in his way to the final victory. I mean how many players play two competitive matches in one day? During a qualifying match against Ireland on 13 November 1985, Lerby left in the 58th minute as he had to catch a private jet to fly back to Germany to play, as a substitute, for Bayern in a cup match on the same day. Need someone who was willing to tear out your spinal cord, eat your liver and feast on your soul in order to win a game? Look no further. Soren Lerby was quite simply the embodiment of winning attitude.
It says it all really that when Bayern Munich in 1983 were looking for a replacement for their captain and leader trotting off to Real Madrid, the fearsome Paul Breitner, the choice to be the new engine and Kampfschwein in the German club's central midfield fell on Lerby. Truly a sign upon which to mark how fearsome qualities the Danish midfielder possessed to be chosen as Bayern Munich's leading man, even more so at a time when foreigners in domestic leagues still were a rarity and especially the Germans still held their homegrown players in higher regard when it came to selecting players for a team's most vital leading positions. But for three years, Lerby dominated the Bundesliga from his role as midfield instigator with the South German giants. Never ever giving up an inch of the field. It was his to command, and only his. Confront this Great Dane at your peril.
It says it all really that when Bayern Munich in 1983 were looking for a replacement for their captain and leader trotting off to Real Madrid, the fearsome Paul Breitner, the choice to be the new engine and Kampfschwein in the German club's central midfield fell on Lerby. Truly a sign upon which to mark how fearsome qualities the Danish midfielder possessed to be chosen as Bayern Munich's leading man, even more so at a time when foreigners in domestic leagues still were a rarity and especially the Germans still held their homegrown players in higher regard when it came to selecting players for a team's most vital leading positions. But for three years, Lerby dominated the Bundesliga from his role as midfield instigator with the South German giants. Never ever giving up an inch of the field. It was his to command, and only his. Confront this Great Dane at your peril.
And I will just post a dug up quote from you to better illustrate the 2 games story
I remember that. Denmark still needed a point to qualify for the worldcup in '86. Hoeneß came up with the idea that he should play both games. The Danish coach agreed to sub him off as soon as the game is decided and Hoeneß waited on the sidelines to bring him home as soon as possible. In the 2nd half Denmark took the lead, Lerby ran off the pitch and they had a police escort to the airport, private jet to Düsseldorf and then by car to Bochum. A few km away from the Stadium they drove into a traffic jam and Lerby jumped out of the car and ran the last 2 km. He arrived 5 minutes before the game started and Udo Lattek told him he's too late, he can't start in the game
Mental stuff.
Think he was underrated since he didn't achieve success on the international stage though that Denmark team was absolutely brilliant.
An article on that great 80s Danish side featuring the likes of Laudrup, Lerby and Elkjaer
http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2009/oct/13/forgotten-story-denmark-1980s
''Positivity was ingrained in the side – in the Mexico 86 match against West Germany, Lerby ran 30 yards to deliver a ferocious bollocking to Sivebæk just for passing the ball back to the keeper – but not to the point of naivety.''
I'd like to see Figo and Cafu pair up properly on the right flank and give it hell for leather. Get Figo in his Barca wingmanship role rather than his ageing Real inside-right posting. I'd also be tempted to stick Koeman in front of the defence and let him both run the match and get a handle on Bergkamp. @Fortitude is forever banging on about how old legendary libero types would find a natural niche in the modern game at the base of midfield. Here is a perfect opportunity for him to do so.
Regarding scared keepers, I remember some of the stories told when I was a kid - keep in mind, this was a long time before the Internet and all that: One that refused to die (pardon the pun) was that a player (the first one I recall was Billy Bremner, then it moved on to Eder) had actually killed a keeper with a particularly wicked shot.
I remember us looking forward to seeing Eder in the World Cup - much as you'd want to see Hannibal Lecter - for that very reason: He had an insanely powerful shot, one that could actually kill you!
Now, again, keep in mind that this was at a time when a kid didn't know much about foreign leagues - and players like Zico were just whispers, legends who appeared before your eyes only at the World Cup.
I remember us looking forward to seeing Eder in the World Cup - much as you'd want to see Hannibal Lecter - for that very reason: He had an insanely powerful shot, one that could actually kill you!
Now, again, keep in mind that this was at a time when a kid didn't know much about foreign leagues - and players like Zico were just whispers, legends who appeared before your eyes only at the World Cup.
I had been considering the possibility of pairing Figo and Cafu down the right. There were certain reason why I didn't want to do this. Firstly I wanted to play Baggio in a free roaming second striker/playmaker central role where he would thrive instead of shunting out left and I didn't/couldn't play a 4-5-1. Wasn't too enamoured about the prospects of playing Koeman and Keown (a player thrust upon me) as a partnership either. Also thought about the freedom Cafu and Bernat would have when attacking and I think they are better wing-backs than full-backs. Thus I had to go with 3 at the back to fully utilize Baggio, Koeman's and other players' strengths. It's not like Figo is stuck to a rigid inside right role though. He and Baggio have the tactical freedom to roam, drop deep, exploit the flanks etc as they have an excellent defensive midfield duo behind them. Figo and Baggio thrive when they are the key components of the team and have lots of responsibility placed upon them.
Sticking Koeman in front of the defense is an interesting idea but I think the freedom and space he receives in the sweeper role would be optimal for him to maximise his creative talents and vision. His passing was truly phenomenal. Moreover, his organisational skills, tactical intelligence and reading of the game were top notch and best suited to the sweeper role as well. Just don't think he is the kind of defender whom I would want to place in the base of the midfield to deal with Bergkamp. I think Bergkamp would have his hands full with the likes of Sanchis, De Rossi and Lerby in close proximity anyway.
harms, - 8
.
antohan,
crappycraperson,
BorisDeLeFora,
.
manikandan nair,
MTR,
Joga Bonito - 7
.
Cutch,
Mighty Boosh,
Thisistheone,
Edgar Allan Pillow,
the hea,
Kazi,
2mufc0,
Still quite even I should say!
.
antohan,
crappycraperson,
BorisDeLeFora,
.
manikandan nair,
MTR,
Joga Bonito - 7
.
Cutch,
Mighty Boosh,
Thisistheone,
Edgar Allan Pillow,
the hea,
Kazi,
2mufc0,
Still quite even I should say!
Always had him down as some form of right wingback/halfback/midfielder. Haven't seen more than a few games with him, mind, and largely for Germany so his role -or my perception of it- may have been directly linked/affected by having Vogts there as a more defensive fullback than Breitner.
Yeah, very much what I said re: your midfield lacking a playmaker. For some strange reason I can't quite explain, I rate your front three higher individually but his as a unit. I can see his three flowing and ticking and, in particular, Kaltz-Blokhin being a clear route to goal if Oleg shakes off Keown's attention, which I'm sure he will a few times.
I lost the moment though, it looks like our last game right before the Cambiasso's goal
I see why you were asking earlier now. A bit of a potato-potatoe one, isn't it? It may be down to the term I translate to wingback: carrilero. Carril being a traintrack, and carrilero basically the guy that goes back and forth all game on that track (the flank).I don't think Argentina 78, Italy 82 etc had a specialist playmaker, right?
Germany of 90's had Hassler and not anyone else, right?
Which was a great pick, he was a beast. We are all familiar with Keano but Lerby was equally mental and more talented on the ball. You could argue Keano had a greater influence on the rest of the team, maybe down to him being a cnut.
In fact, you just reminded me of what I wanted to post about Simonsen before he jetted of to Argentina (
). Didn't want the face parade to ring any bells.The video the Danish team made wishing a quick recovery to Simonsen when he broke his leg during the Euros. I don't speak Danish so have no idea what they are saying, but you get the gist of it being probably the gayest thing in football history. It just had to come from that odd yet brilliant bunch of players
Fair enough then. I understand your point about the lack of a genuine playmaker in the middle like Falcao. Don't want to keep repeating myself but Lerby was a fantastic passer who had a great cultured foot on him. I know he looks brash and thunderous but he could hit some sweet long passes with that monstrous left peg of his. De Rossi too was a good passer. They weren't exactly playmakers but could pick out a pass.
I was clearly looking at ways to limit the effectiveness of Blokhin's and Oritz's pace the best I could with my trio of deep defenders and two combative all-round midfielders. Oh and don't forget I have Weah, Baggio and Figo who are unbelievable dribblers, troubling his defense as well.
I miss that
Even when by all accounts we were quite privileged with football on TV here (thankfully a tin pot little South American country has no scale to produce mass-media junk). Still, for some bizarre reason local football managers didn't seem to be interested, we reacted to the Danes in a similar way to how we reacted to the Dutch in the group opener in 1974. People remember the impotence to this day: football had changed, it was now a different sport and, having just been semifinalists four years earlier, our NT now looked like dinosaurs.