The Reality Draft: Main Thread (Finals)

At the moment looking at:

Zambrotta--Lucio--Popescu--Cole
---------------Cerezo--------------
------Robson---------Tigana------
Koke---------------------Del Piero
-----------Klinsmaann-------------

Think I've got a very good pair of full backs and a lot of midfield protection in front of a relatively average centre back pairing. Also has the option of going to an Aleti/Simeone style 4-4-2, although Tigana would be slightly out of position in a narrow left midfiield role.
 
Annahnomoss said:
It works great with players with long peaks like Giggs/Scholes/Seedorf, but players who had shorter peaks 12-24 months are more problematic. Some voters will judged them for the level they had then, others will completely disregard them as they only count 3 years as a peak etc.

There is no real benefit, whatsoever, to not define it. All it causes are childish arguments and discussions about what their individual opinion about how long a peak is. The discussion would be much better spent the way Pippa spent his Adriano discussion of actually providing proofs of a a peak in accordance to to the defined rules.

If we know that X amount is what a peak actually means, then we can pick the players that fits in those requirements.
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:boring:
 
Gio said:
We have this debate every draft. I'm pretty sure the only one it was defined was the Prem draft where it was over a minimum 100-game period, which again fits with the standard three-year timespan. Three years seems fine to me, few players ever have a genuine peak longer than that, while it gets rid of the purple-patchers.
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I know! :boring:

Gio said:
Aye. Be as well going back to the old reinforcement system of picking the fruits from your vanquished opponent.
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I miss that. It was prone to being very lop-sided in terms of fortunes, but there was that element of achievement in moving on to the next round carrying a rival scalp.

I never cared for missing out on the great players, you could argue those facing the harder games rightly deserved having a better pool of players to pick from, and every team always has at least 2-3 big names in a snake draft anyway. The problem was when you carried a gaping hole in a certain position throughout, but you could also blame bad drafting for that.

I can see how unsuitable it was for the more recent drafts with stringent requirements but in this one, when everyone joins knowing luck WILL play a part, we could have done with revisiting it for those who never had the joy of getting pummelled by Platini for 90 minutes only to bring him on board after the 90mins were over. :drool:

It was also quite fun to observe who each manager was planning on adding just by reading what they had to say about them :lol:
 
antohan said:
I know! :boring:



I miss that. It was prone to being very lop-sided in terms of fortunes, but there was that element of achievement in moving on to the next round carrying a rival scalp.

I never cared for missing out on the great players, you could argue those facing the harder games rightly deserved having a better pool of players to pick from, and every team always has at least 2-3 big names in a snake draft anyway. The problem was when you carried a gaping hole in a certain position throughout, but you could also blame bad drafting for that.

I can see how unsuitable it was for the more recent drafts with stringent requirements but in this one, when everyone joins knowing luck WILL play a part, we could have done with revisiting it for those who never had the joy of getting pummelled by Platini for 90 minutes only to bring him on board after the 90mins were over. :drool:

It was also quite fun to observe who each manager was planning on adding just by reading what they had to say about them :lol:
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There's a strong thematic case for it being in place here. The reinforcement approach we have now favours those at either end of the list for marquee selections, so I'm not sure that's much fairer.
 
Gio said:
Aye. Be as well going back to the old reinforcement system of picking the fruits from your vanquished opponent.
Click to expand...
antohan said:
I miss that. It was prone to being very lop-sided in terms of fortunes, but there was that element of achievement in moving on to the next round carrying a rival scalp.
Click to expand...

Why? Thought the fun part was the drafting process. Picking from vanquished opponents takes away the drafting part as there will not be any overlaps. Why would that be better?
 
Gio said:
There's a strong thematic case for it being in place here. The reinforcement approach we have now favours those at either end of the list for marquee selections, so I'm not sure that's much fairer.
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I think auctions are the best when it comes to reinforcement rounds.
 
Stobzilla said:
MJJ and Theon doing just a stand up job of proving why the dual manager/assistant thing works so well.
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:lol: Cm'on Stobz, it's only been three hours buddy and I seem to remember you taking the full 8 not long ago! :smirk:

Righteo, I'll pick in a minute - just thinking something through.
 
Gio said:
There's a strong thematic case for it being in place here. The reinforcement approach we have now favours those at either end of the list for marquee selections, so I'm not sure that's much fairer.
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If that is solely the reason, we just need to have 3 draft orders, first round beginning with player 1, 2nd round beginning with player 8 and third round beginning with player 16. The luck of the draw order can never be totally eliminated without removing the drafting itself.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Why? Thought the fun part was the drafting process. Picking from vanquished opponents takes away the drafting part as there will not be any overlaps. Why would that be better?
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The long draft is the fun, the reinforcement "drafts" rarely are. I think I only remember one occasion when there was serious gamesmanship involved.
 
We've got a few options for the last pick, so I'm gonna flip things around and take first dibs on the keepers

Manchester%20United%20keeper%20Peter%20Schmeichel
 
Jayvin picks Buffon.

01. Annahnomoss - (3. Tardelli) 1. Cocu 2. Gentile 4. Amoros 5. Rossi 6. Gascoigne 7. Scirea 8. Bossis 9. Littbarski 10. Sterling 11. D. Alves
02. Chesterlestreet - (7. Lahm) 1. Mascherano 2. Nedved 3. Neeskens 4. Beckham 5. Henry 6. Júnior, 8. Buchwald 9. G. Neville 10. J. Rodriguez 11. Augenthaler
03. Joga Bonito - (4. O Ardiles) 1. Keown 2. Baggio 3. Figo 5. Weah 6. Søren Lerby 7. Cafú 8. Koeman 9. De Rossi 10. Juan Bernat 11. Sanchís
04. Raees - (2. Makelele) 1. Morena 3. Socrates 4. Conti 5. Stoichkov 6. Ballack 7. Zanetti, 8. Costacurta 9. Terry, 10. Pogba, 11. D. Villa
05. antohan - (3. Gerrard) 1. Ljungberg 2. Boniek 4. Effenberg 5. Raul 6. Luis Enrique 7. Hierro 8. T. Silva 9. Ferrara 10. Götze 11. Vieri
06. BorisDeLeFora - (7. Bergomi) 1. Zambrotta 2. Tigana 3. Robson 4. Cerezo 5. Del Piero 6. Klinsmann 8. Lucio 9. Popescu 10. Koke 11. A. Cole
07. ctp - (6. Ribéry) 1. Brolin 2. Lato 3. Xavi 4. Guardiola 5. Shevchenko 7. Kohler 8. Carvalho 9. Kakà 10. Carvajal 11. Evra
08. Skizzo - (7. Brehme) 1. Solskjaer 2. Cabrini 3. Schuster 4. K. Förster 5. Hugo Sanchez 6. Barnes 8. Deschamps 9. McGrain 10. Marquinhos 11. Michel
09. MJJ (Theon) - (4. Dalglish) 1. Di Livio 2. Souness 3. Bochini 5. Rivaldo 6. McGrath 7. Sammer 8. Campbell 9. Totti 10. Ricardo Rodriguez 11. Peter Schmeichel
10. Jayvin - (3. Iniesta) 1. Gallas 2. Vieira 4. Lizarazu 5. Romario 6. Overmars 7. Desailly 8. Blanc 9. Xabi Alonso 10. Hazard 11. Gianluigi Buffon
11. Stobzilla - (8. Jugovic) 1. Camoranesi 2. Hansen 3. Davids 4. Balakov 5. Batistuta 6. Irwin 7. Passarella 9. Pires 10. Strootman
12. Aldo - (7. Rio) 1. Senna 2. Hagi 3. Pirlo 4. Schweinsteiger 5. RvN 6. Tresor 8. Camacho 9. Gerets 10. Neymar
13. The Red Viper - (5. Simonsen) 1. Prosinečki 2. Robben 3. Scholes 4. Vidic 6. Eto'o 7. Stam 8. Rui Costa 9. Dunga 10. Rafael Da Silva
14. VivaJanuzaj - (7. Nesta) 1. Francescoli 2. Seedorf 3. Breitner 4. Vierchowod 5. Rummenigge 6. Savicevic 8. Verón 9. Adams 10. Alaba
15. harms - (1. Puyol) 2. Blokhin 3. Falcao 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Bergkamp 6.Bonhof 7. Ruggeri 8. Willy Ortiz 9. Stielike 10. Varane
16. crappycraperson - (7. Cannavaro) 1. Nadal 2. M. Kempes 3. Roy Keane 4. Jan Ceulemans 5. Shearer 6. Prohaska 8. Briegel 9. Ayala 10. Kroos

@Stobzilla
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
If that is solely the reason, we just need to have 3 draft orders, first round beginning with player 1, 2nd round beginning with player 8 and third round beginning with player 16. The luck of the draw order can never be totally eliminated without removing the drafting itself.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes: I used to get excited with these discussions, but I've long concluded there's no need to overnegineer things "for fairness", 70% of what decides the outcome of a draft is half the managers making spastic decisions and the other half being affected by them. Another 20% is luck of the draw for first game/quarters/semi. And about 10% max is where the feck you happen to be in the drafting order, if that.
 
antohan said:
:rolleyes: I used to get excited with these discussions, but I've long concluded there's no need to overnegineer things "for fairness", 70% of what decides the outcome of a draft is half the managers making spastic decisions and the other half being affected by them. Another 20% is luck of the draw for first game/quarters/semi. And about 10% max is where the feck you happen to be in the drafting order, if that.
Click to expand...

The only 'fair' draw that no one could complain was in Aldo's sheep draft :lol:
 
01. Annahnomoss - (3. Tardelli) 1. Cocu 2. Gentile 4. Amoros 5. Rossi 6. Gascoigne 7. Scirea 8. Bossis 9. Littbarski 10. Sterling 11. D. Alves
02. Chesterlestreet - (7. Lahm) 1. Mascherano 2. Nedved 3. Neeskens 4. Beckham 5. Henry 6. Júnior, 8. Buchwald 9. G. Neville 10. J. Rodriguez 11. Augenthaler
03. Joga Bonito - (4. O Ardiles) 1. Keown 2. Baggio 3. Figo 5. Weah 6. Søren Lerby 7. Cafú 8. Koeman 9. De Rossi 10. Juan Bernat 11. Sanchís
04. Raees - (2. Makelele) 1. Morena 3. Socrates 4. Conti 5. Stoichkov 6. Ballack 7. Zanetti, 8. Costacurta 9. Terry, 10. Pogba, 11. D. Villa
05. antohan - (3. Gerrard) 1. Ljungberg 2. Boniek 4. Effenberg 5. Raul 6. Luis Enrique 7. Hierro 8. T. Silva 9. Ferrara 10. Götze 11. Vieri
06. BorisDeLeFora - (7. Bergomi) 1. Zambrotta 2. Tigana 3. Robson 4. Cerezo 5. Del Piero 6. Klinsmann 8. Lucio 9. Popescu 10. Koke 11. A. Cole
07. ctp - (6. Ribéry) 1. Brolin 2. Lato 3. Xavi 4. Guardiola 5. Shevchenko 7. Kohler 8. Carvalho 9. Kakà 10. Carvajal 11. Evra
08. Skizzo - (7. Brehme) 1. Solskjaer 2. Cabrini 3. Schuster 4. K. Förster 5. Hugo Sanchez 6. Barnes 8. Deschamps 9. McGrain 10. Marquinhos 11. Michel
09. MJJ (Theon) - (4. Dalglish) 1. Di Livio 2. Souness 3. Bochini 5. Rivaldo 6. McGrath 7. Sammer 8. Campbell 9. Totti 10. Ricardo Rodriguez 11. Peter Schmeichel
10. Jayvin - (3. Iniesta) 1. Gallas 2. Vieira 4. Lizarazu 5. Romario 6. Overmars 7. Desailly 8. Blanc 9. Xabi Alonso 10. Hazard 11. Gianluigi Buffon
11. Stobzilla - (8. Jugovic) 1. Camoranesi 2. Hansen 3. Davids 4. Balakov 5. Batistuta 6. Irwin 7. Passarella 9. Pires 10. Strootman 11. Mauro Silva
12. Aldo - (7. Rio) 1. Senna 2. Hagi 3. Pirlo 4. Schweinsteiger 5. RvN 6. Tresor 8. Camacho 9. Gerets 10. Neymar
13. The Red Viper - (5. Simonsen) 1. Prosinečki 2. Robben 3. Scholes 4. Vidic 6. Eto'o 7. Stam 8. Rui Costa 9. Dunga 10. Rafael Da Silva
14. VivaJanuzaj - (7. Nesta) 1. Francescoli 2. Seedorf 3. Breitner 4. Vierchowod 5. Rummenigge 6. Savicevic 8. Verón 9. Adams 10. Alaba
15. harms - (1. Puyol) 2. Blokhin 3. Falcao 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Bergkamp 6.Bonhof 7. Ruggeri 8. Willy Ortiz 9. Stielike 10. Varane
16. crappycraperson - (7. Cannavaro) 1. Nadal 2. M. Kempes 3. Roy Keane 4. Jan Ceulemans 5. Shearer 6. Prohaska 8. Briegel 9. Ayala 10. Kroos
 
This is why you have to let Stob get Verón Viva, he now refuses to play football and will just choke the shit out of any rival.

Balakov--Davids--Strootman--Camoranesi

---------Mauro Silva if you make it
 
Aha! Keepers, eh?

Well, then - let me think out loud here: Say I come up against MJJ/Theon. They have the great Dane in goal, arguably the best keeper available here. Now, if I pick the 16th best keeper born between 010150 and 010185, will the gap in quality between my man and Schmeichel be wide enough for it to make any difference?

Probably not. And that goes pretty much regardless of what kind of defense I sport. If the latter is considered flawed, it won't matter if I have Yashin himself in goal, etc.

So, it's back to my old favourite moan: These keepers...something should be done about 'em and we all seem to agree on this, yet no progress is made in the reform department.

Why moan? Well, because it's something absurd about it. A round is spent picking players who literally play no part in the game - they're just pretty faces, as it were (look at Pete's sweet mug!). In this draft we have a potential situation in which the keepers could have an impact: They could get injured, forcing the manager to replace one extra with another extra, thus missing out on a proper actor...and that sort of indirect impact is all a historically great footballer like Peter Schmeichel is capable of. Again - it's absurd, surely.

Let me put it like this: If the keeper has zero impact on either the match debates or the votes (and I submit that he does not), then a new policy should be introduced: At the beginning (or the end) of the draft, you're given a keeper (so that your team doesn't look crazy on paper)...and that's it.

I've probably said exactly the same ten times before - so broken record, apologies and all that. But the keeper business is absurd, no?
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Aha! Keepers, eh?

Well, then - let me think out loud here: Say I come up against MJJ/Theon. They have the great Dane in goal, arguably the best keeper available here. Now, if I pick the 16th best keeper born between 010150 and 010185, will the gap in quality between my man and Schmeichel be wide enough for it to make any difference?

Probably not. And that goes pretty much regardless of what kind of defense I sport. If the latter is considered flawed, it won't matter if I have Yashin himself in goal, etc.

So, it's back to my old favourite moan: These keepers...something should be done about 'em and we all seem to agree on this, yet no progress is made in the reform department.

Why moan? Well, because it's something absurd about it. A round is spent picking players who literally play no part in the game - they're just pretty faces, as it were (look at Pete's sweet mug!). In this draft we have a potential situation in which the keepers could have an impact: They could get injured, forcing the manager to replace one extra with another extra, thus missing out on a proper actor...and that sort of indirect impact is all a historically great footballer like Peter Schmeichel is capable of. Again - it's absurd, surely.

Let me put it like this: If the keeper has zero impact on either the match debates or the votes (and I submit that he does not), then a new policy should be introduced: At the beginning (or the end) of the draft, you're given a keeper (so that your team doesn't look crazy on paper)...and that's it.

I've probably said exactly the same ten times before - so broken record, apologies and all that. But the keeper business is absurd, no?
Click to expand...
I actually think that keepers shouldn't be a part of the Hargriefs or whatever randoms, because if you lose your keeper you have to replace him, which won't matter if you replace Shmeichel for Jaaskalainen and get a downgrade in your team or changing Cech for Shmeichel. It really won't matter, which basically means that you can get by bad luck in the randoms that you will get only one player reinforcement rather then two. I think we should have one random round for 16 DoF keepers because it doesn't matter anyway and than not let them get lost in the random rounds later on.


@antohan I wanted to have a round of trades, I think it worked charms in the auction draft and adds another element, I'd sure be pleased to make some changes and I know there will be a couple of managers here who will be delighted to get Veron or Savicevic on sale
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Aha! Keepers, eh?

Well, then - let me think out loud here: Say I come up against MJJ/Theon. They have the great Dane in goal, arguably the best keeper available here. Now, if I pick the 16th best keeper born between 010150 and 010185, will the gap in quality between my man and Schmeichel be wide enough for it to make any difference?

Probably not. And that goes pretty much regardless of what kind of defense I sport. If the latter is considered flawed, it won't matter if I have Yashin himself in goal, etc.

So, it's back to my old favourite moan: These keepers...something should be done about 'em and we all seem to agree on this, yet no progress is made in the reform department.

Why moan? Well, because it's something absurd about it. A round is spent picking players who literally play no part in the game - they're just pretty faces, as it were (look at Pete's sweet mug!). In this draft we have a potential situation in which the keepers could have an impact: They could get injured, forcing the manager to replace one extra with another extra, thus missing out on a proper actor...and that sort of indirect impact is all a historically great footballer like Peter Schmeichel is capable of. Again - it's absurd, surely.

Let me put it like this: If the keeper has zero impact on either the match debates or the votes (and I submit that he does not), then a new policy should be introduced: At the beginning (or the end) of the draft, you're given a keeper (so that your team doesn't look crazy on paper)...and that's it.

I've probably said exactly the same ten times before - so broken record, apologies and all that. But the keeper business is absurd, no?
Click to expand...

I agree. Scrap keepers all together or devise a penalty system where they get some kind of advantage
 
Here we are again, not having finished the draft and already suggesting changes/improvements :boring: Draft junkies :p

BTW, I DO really care what keeper I get. Whether it matters or not is secondary, I have my boys and always play my boys. Simple.
 
antohan said:
Here we are again, not having finished the draft and already suggesting changes/improvements :boring: Draft junkies :p

BTW, I DO really care what keeper I get. Whether it matters or not is secondary, I have my boys and always play my boys. Simple.
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Last draft I took Valdes for his distribution. I agree it can matter, but it usually doesn't for most people
 
The keeper business is absurd indeed. Not much to add to it, it is completely irrelevant when it should be as important as any other pick.
 
antohan said:
Here we are again, not having finished the draft and already suggesting changes/improvements :boring: Draft junkies :p

BTW, I DO really care what keeper I get. Whether it matters or not is secondary, I have my boys and always play my boys. Simple.
Click to expand...

Well, the problem ain't that the managers don't care what keepers they pick - I'm sure many do care. The problem is that it has no bearing on the match what keeper you sport. You'll do just as well with a competent, run-of-the-mill player as you would with a legend - and that is absurd in itself.

But this isn't even about realism and footballing qualities: In a match between two GOAT studded teams it may not make much of a difference whether you sport Yashin or [insert generic good keeper of the Brad Friedel ilk]. But that doesn't diminish the fact that drafting your keeper is de facto meaningless, since he has zero impact on how people vote and/or discuss the teams involved. The latter is where the absurdity lies. Either you make the keeper count for something - or you exclude him from the drafting by simply awarding each manager a generic, competent keeper for cosmetic purposes.
 
You are never going to fix it. I personally play emphasis on picking the right sort of keeper for the tactics and defensive unit, don't really care what people make of it or the impact on voting, it's about the fuzzy feeling of having a side you are proud of, so this generic keeper nonsense is definitely not one I'd play along with. See a few drafts ago, I picked XXXXXXX because as a sweeper-keeper, then another time XXXXXX because my CBs weren't the tallest so I needed someone who stood out for imposing himself on aerial balls. I sure did argue their value, if people ignore it I'm not really fussed.
 
01. Annahnomoss - (3. Tardelli) 1. Cocu 2. Gentile 4. Amoros 5. Rossi 6. Gascoigne 7. Scirea 8. Bossis 9. Littbarski 10. Sterling 11. D. Alves
02. Chesterlestreet - (7. Lahm) 1. Mascherano 2. Nedved 3. Neeskens 4. Beckham 5. Henry 6. Júnior, 8. Buchwald 9. G. Neville 10. J. Rodriguez 11. Augenthaler
03. Joga Bonito - (4. O Ardiles) 1. Keown 2. Baggio 3. Figo 5. Weah 6. Søren Lerby 7. Cafú 8. Koeman 9. De Rossi 10. Juan Bernat 11. Sanchís
04. Raees - (2. Makelele) 1. Morena 3. Socrates 4. Conti 5. Stoichkov 6. Ballack 7. Zanetti, 8. Costacurta 9. Terry, 10. Pogba, 11. D. Villa
05. antohan - (3. Gerrard) 1. Ljungberg 2. Boniek 4. Effenberg 5. Raul 6. Luis Enrique 7. Hierro 8. T. Silva 9. Ferrara 10. Götze 11. Vieri
06. BorisDeLeFora - (7. Bergomi) 1. Zambrotta 2. Tigana 3. Robson 4. Cerezo 5. Del Piero 6. Klinsmann 8. Lucio 9. Popescu 10. Koke 11. A. Cole
07. ctp - (6. Ribéry) 1. Brolin 2. Lato 3. Xavi 4. Guardiola 5. Shevchenko 7. Kohler 8. Carvalho 9. Kakà 10. Carvajal 11. Evra
08. Skizzo - (7. Brehme) 1. Solskjaer 2. Cabrini 3. Schuster 4. K. Förster 5. Hugo Sanchez 6. Barnes 8. Deschamps 9. McGrain 10. Marquinhos 11. Michel
09. MJJ (Theon) - (4. Dalglish) 1. Di Livio 2. Souness 3. Bochini 5. Rivaldo 6. McGrath 7. Sammer 8. Campbell 9. Totti 10. Ricardo Rodriguez 11. Peter Schmeichel
10. Jayvin - (3. Iniesta) 1. Gallas 2. Vieira 4. Lizarazu 5. Romario 6. Overmars 7. Desailly 8. Blanc 9. Xabi Alonso 10. Hazard 11. Gianluigi Buffon
11. Stobzilla - (8. Jugovic) 1. Camoranesi 2. Hansen 3. Davids 4. Balakov 5. Batistuta 6. Irwin 7. Passarella 9. Pires 10. Strootman 11. Mauro Silva
12. Aldo - (7. Rio) 1. Senna 2. Hagi 3. Pirlo 4. Schweinsteiger 5. RvN 6. Tresor 8. Camacho 9. Gerets 10. Neymar 11. Montero
13. The Red Viper - (5. Simonsen) 1. Prosinečki 2. Robben 3. Scholes 4. Vidic 6. Eto'o 7. Stam 8. Rui Costa 9. Dunga 10. Rafael Da Silva
14. VivaJanuzaj - (7. Nesta) 1. Francescoli 2. Seedorf 3. Breitner 4. Vierchowod 5. Rummenigge 6. Savicevic 8. Verón 9. Adams 10. Alaba
15. harms - (1. Puyol) 2. Blokhin 3. Falcao 4. Roberto Carlos 5. Bergkamp 6.Bonhof 7. Ruggeri 8. Willy Ortiz 9. Stielike 10. Varane
16. crappycraperson - (7. Cannavaro) 1. Nadal 2. M. Kempes 3. Roy Keane 4. Jan Ceulemans 5. Shearer 6. Prohaska 8. Briegel 9. Ayala 10. Kroos

@The Red Viper
 
Aldo's latter half is crazy. Tresor, Camacho, Gerets, Montero. 4 great picks in a row and somehow he built a really great defense with pick 6-11.
 
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