The obvious truth - Our goalscoring problem

It's completely apparent that this team is going absolutely nowhere fast, and it's due to the fact that they are so overwhelmingly average, it's almost not believable that they play for a team that's the size of Manchester United.

I've been saying this for a while now, but I would seriously have almost every single squad of players that is above us in the table right now, other than Crystal Palace, and even then I feel like I'm wearing red tinted glasses. The only player(s) that I'd keep (and this is being generous) is Bruno and Ugarte. The rest are completely sub standard, and there is nothing you can say to me that would prove me wrong. The stats have even been sent in this thread exposing them all.

Bruno stays purely because he clearly is a talented player, with a good football brain, work ethic, playstyle, skill etc. He is gifted, that much is clear. However much he likes to try Hollywood passes 24/7. Ugarte also stays because of the same traits I mentioned for Bruno. It's clear that he has ability, can read the game etc, and in my opinion, has taken to the Premier League VERY well since he joined, which is difficult to do. So for me, it's only those two that stay. Possibly an argument to be made for MdL & Mazra too.

We are in a situation where we have absolutely ZERO attacking threat, along with non existent attacking cohesion, sprinkled with incredibly low football IQ wingers with a dash of completely inept strikers. The club has never, ever been in this situation before, and it's been quite clear for some time that something needed to change but yet here we are, still waiting and hoping that something will miraculously click and all of a sudden we're a threat to come up against..

The truth is, the click is not all of a sudden going to happen with the squad that we have currently, and our results our evidence of this. Ruben has changed his matchday squad for EVERY game he's been with us, and still, there is no click. People would potentially want to argue that's why the click hasn't happened, because the team isn't getting a chance to play together for a long period of time, but that's just not true. He's changing the squad so frequently because he still doesn't know what players can actually do certain things. They're that bad and that unpredictable, they're different players from game to game. I've again, never experienced something like this with any other team in the Premier League, it's absolute madness.

While we are finally seeing some changes begin to happen at the club with certain individuals leaving and/or being removed, which has been long overdue, the is just the start of the process. We are realistically looking at a 1-2.5yr year period before we even get close to being the team we should be, and in that period I'd guess that 70% of the names on that team sheet yesterday, will not be on it. That is what we NEED do to progress as a football club, so you either stick with Ruben's (and INEOS) plan and ride out this horrendous rough patch or you continue to be in the perpetual cycle of Manchester United being Player FC and blindly backing players because of one good season or the fact they're from the academy.

Enough is enough. The culture needs to change, and that's directed at all of us fans as well.
 
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I've been saying this for a while now, but I would seriously have almost every single squad of players that is above us in the table right now, other than Crystal Palace, and even then I feel like I'm wearing red tinted glasses. The only player(s) that I'd keep (and this is being generous) is Bruno and Ugarte. The rest and completely sub standard, and there is nothing you can say to me that would prove me wrong. The stats have even been sent in this thread exposing them all.

Bruno stays purely because he clearly is a talented player, with a good football brain, work ethic, playstyle, skill etc. He is gifted, that much is clear. However much he likes to try Hollywood passes 24/7. Ugarte also stays because of the same traits I mentioned for Bruno. It's clear that he has ability, can read the game etc, and in my opinion, has taken to the Premier League VERY well since he joined, which is difficult to do. So for me, it's only those two that stay. Possibly an argument to be made for MdL & Mazra too.
Agree overall. If I was to pick the players to have in a squad that could finish comfortably top four and then build towards a league challenge from there, it would be Bruno, Ugarte, Amad, De Ligt and Mazraoui. Not necessarily all as starters, but they'd be decent players to have in the squad. I'd probably add Garnacho as well (there is something there), and the jury is out on Yoro and Dorgu.

All the rest definitely need to be replaced over the next 2-3 seasons. Some will have to stay for a period, simply because we can't realistically bring in 10 new players over the summer.
 
Ugarte, De Light and Maz has all been rated sub standard in other clubs. They aren’t cream de la cream either.

Since our team at the moment, offensive wise at least, is extremely young the results are very much up and down.

Just continue to promote the young, get rid of all around thirty and let it take time. Middle of the table for two years, balance the books a bit and let the kids get some experience. Maybe sign a leader or two with some experience, preferably free agents.

We can’t really do anything else at the moment. Just dig in.
 
I think we've got to acknowledge that the team isn't set up to deliver easy chances to strikers. Our strikers aren't at United standards of course, but i maintain they could be effective and productive with the right conditions around them.

We haven't had those conditions for the best part of a decade now, so every striker is destined to fail.

We need to become more physically dominant, create patterns of play and regular opportunities for players to express their creativity. As it is, it feels like we are reliant on brilliance to even progress the ball past the CBs, and you cannot expect to routinely create chances if that's the case.
 
The squad obviously lacks both goals, and chance creators. We are really screwed. I still feel like we should have enough to beat the lesser teams at home though.

The line up with Amad as a RWB, with Bruno at CM, Mainoo and Garnacho at 10 and a striker up top still feels like it may be our best attacking line up. I mean even if it works, its not gonna be super exciting, but it feels like our best team in the games where we have possession.
 
Hojlund and Zirkzee will be buzzing we’ve signed no one. Means they still pick up a lot of game time this season.
 
The squad obviously lacks both goals, and chance creators. We are really screwed. I still feel like we should have enough to beat the lesser teams at home though.

The line up with Amad as a RWB, with Bruno at CM, Mainoo and Garnacho at 10 and a striker up top still feels like it may be our best attacking line up. I mean even if it works, its not gonna be super exciting, but it feels like our best team in the games where we have possession.
Except Amorim won’t start Amad at RWB. It’s most likely going to be Dalot now. With Dorgu on the left.
 
We can talk about Onana’s passing drills, the defence’s occasional comedy routines, or last season’s injuries, but let’s be honest—the biggest issue is staring us in the face.

We simply don’t score enough goals.

Last season, we managed 57 league goals, and this season, we’re on track for even fewer. In the past decade, only two teams have scraped into the top four with fewer than 60 goals. Our response? Sign four defensive players (five if you count Dorgu) and bring in Zirkzee as a backup striker. Then, for good measure, we start losing Rashford and Antony with no replacements. Because why not make an already weak attack even weaker?

I back Højlund, but let’s not act surprised that he’s struggling. Even if every player in the squad hit their best-ever goal tally, we still wouldn’t reach 60 goals. Did we really plan for Garnacho, Amad, and Mainoo to cover the shortfall? That’s not a strategy—that’s blind faith.

And what’s with every attack somehow finding its way back to Bruno? No matter where we start, we always hit the reset button. Players like Garnacho and Amad thrive on direct play, yet we’re forcing them into a never-ending game of “pass it back to Bruno” instead of letting them cause chaos.
Its simple really. This squad doesn't yet have any clue how to systematically attack in the tactical set up Amorim employs. We probably need likd a two week training camp to sort it out. But I'm unsure where we will get that chance.

Because for all the disdain our attackers get. Folks have forgotten under a care taker they plundered 11 goals in games. I'm a system they understood. Right now they are all at see because as yet they do not fully understand what they are doing. In attack especially our wide forward do not still operate close enough to the cf. And Rasmus in particular hasn't yet understood how to operate in a fashion that Amorim desires to do. With training time that will come....
 
I like Holjiund and Zirkzee. Both honest, hard working players who really want to make it work at United. However, I just don't see them ever being good enough.

If Holjund was playing for Palace and Zirkzee was playing for Fulham I wouldn't think either were anything special.
 
I remember when we had Cole AND Yorke AND Solskjaer AND Sheringham. Four very competent strikers all at the same time. Now we have Somebody and Nobody.
I'm sure some on here can find our passing statistics - I suspect that our pass completion rate must be among the worst in the league. If we keep giving the ball away our strikers will never see the ball and can never score. We need players who can make a pass, and can receive a pass. A striker who can hold up the ball would be a great step forward.
 
Dorgu and Ait Nouri as wingbacks, Amad and Bruno as #10s , and someone like Nico Gonzalez with Ugarte in MF. If we start with those players, I have no doubt Rasmus can be a 25-30 goal a season striker.
 
Our best attacking players are wingers, but we play a system with no wingers and then wonder why we can't score goals.

The system needs attacking wing backs. But Amorin keeps picking Maz and Dalot at wingback. Both who are competent but not particuly outstanding genuine full backs. It leaves us with no wide threat at all and makes us very very easy to defend against.

That coupled with a serious lack of ability in the CF department means out attack is almost pointless. Temporarily I would at least play Amad at RWB to give us some attacking wide threat but I am wondering weather this system can really work in the PL to the level we want it to. I'm not sure the quality you would need at wing back even exists.
 
It's not rocket science. Watched Bowen and Kudus play for West Ham last night (and Paqueta as a CF the week before) - those three would currently be our best attackers...and West Ham are 15th.
 
It's not rocket science. Watched Bowen and Kudus play for West Ham last night (and Paqueta as a CF the week before) - those three would currently be our best attackers...and West Ham are 15th.
Boggles the mind that West Ham signed Kudus from Ajax, 1 year after we signed Antony from Ajax, for less than half of what we paid. How bad was ETH at gauging the potential of players.
 
According to whoscored, across the Pl season, we are - 10.66 in goals scored vs expected goals, the second worst in the league. Our chance creation is midtable, our conversion rate (of which dumb and dumber up top heavily contribute to) is a disgrace.
Our strikers doesn't really get the chances though, more Garnacho who is missing a sure goal a game
 
Boggles the mind that West Ham signed Kudus from Ajax, 1 year after we signed Antony from Ajax, for less than half of what we paid. How bad was ETH at gauging the potential of players.
Dutch managers think that they have some superior insight into the game that only they possess and therefore they don't need to listen to the opinions of scouts or analysts (unless of course they're also Dutch).

They generally want doddery technical players who are the "jack of all trades and master of none" types...i.e. better to be an average CB, an average RB and an average CM than just be really good in one position.

Most of EtHs signings, certainly pre-INEOS, badly, badly lacked in physical attributes. Martinez, too small and slow, Mount, always injured and also not especially quick / dynamic, Onana, cumbersome, Malacia, fragile and small, Eriksen, no engine, slow, Casemiro, no engine, slow. Antony, slow (for a winger).
 
Well, we now have an attacking force of:

Zirkzee - slow, goal-shy, not a striker.
Hojlund - has seemingly lost any talent he had after not being passed to for his whole United career.
Garnacho - easily nullified by just having a defender near him sometimes.
Amad - good player, but can be doubled up on, knowing that they don't need to cover the others.

And that's it? This window seems like one of those perfect storm, relegation fight stories.
 
Well, we now have an attacking force of:

Zirkzee - slow, goal-shy, not a striker.
Hojlund - has seemingly lost any talent he had after not being passed to for his whole United career.
Garnacho - easily nullified by just having a defender near him sometimes.
Amad - good player, but can be doubled up on, knowing that they don't need to cover the others.

And that's it? This window seems like one of those perfect storm, relegation fight stories.

That's without any injuries. Plus we have zero options off the bench, if we need a goal when we're losing, all we can do is replace Hojlund with Zirkzee and vice versa.

Amad will be run into the ground within 2 months.
 
Dutch managers think that they have some superior insight into the game that only they possess and therefore they don't need to listen to the opinions of scouts or analysts (unless of course they're also Dutch).

They generally want doddery technical players who are the "jack of all trades and master of none" types...i.e. better to be an average CB, an average RB and an average CM than just be really good in one position.

Most of EtHs signings, certainly pre-INEOS, badly, badly lacked in physical attributes. Martinez, too small and slow, Mount, always injured and also not especially quick / dynamic, Onana, cumbersome, Malacia, fragile and small, Eriksen, no engine, slow, Casemiro, no engine, slow. Antony, slow (for a winger).

Interesting insights and explains few things about ETH's time here.
 
Dorgu and Ait Nouri as wingbacks, Amad and Bruno as #10s , and someone like Nico Gonzalez with Ugarte in MF. If we start with those players, I have no doubt Rasmus can be a 25-30 goal a season striker.
He's literally in the 1st percentile in shot volume over the past two years among strikers. Like 1.6 shots per 90. This is beyond atrocious.

Of course some of the blame goes onto the rest of the team but the simple fact of the matter is that he is extremely extremely bad at getting into dangerous positions. He's a very good finisher insofar as he consistently seems to outperform his xG but the total chances he gets on the end of are pitiful and have been dating to his time at Atalanta for the most part.
 
The system doesn't help we just don't create enough chances. Too often our attacks are just far too slow
This is true. And it often starts with Onana. The build up is so ponderous and gives more than enough time for the opponents to get into defensive shape.
 
He's literally in the 1st percentile in shot volume over the past two years among strikers. Like 1.6 shots per 90. This is beyond atrocious.

Of course some of the blame goes onto the rest of the team but the simple fact of the matter is that he is extremely extremely bad at getting into dangerous positions. He's a very good finisher insofar as he consistently seems to outperform his xG but the total chances he gets on the end of are pitiful and have been dating to his time at Atalanta for the most part.

Is he in the 1 percentile in terms of goals scored in the last 3 seasons ? I would be very surprised if he was not in the top 50% at least.
 
Is he in the 1 percentile in terms of goals scored in the last 3 seasons ? I would be very surprised if he was not in the top 50% at least.
Well, it depends a bit if you include the Europa League. If you do, then he's ~65th percentile in non-penalty goals over the last two years (and again he's an excellent finisher). But he's never shot at a high volume because he's poor at getting into threatening positions. This is exacerbated in the PL only, where his numbers are awful.

Shot volume is generally a better predictor of future success in young players versus finishing above xG - this is why I've always been a Hojlund skeptic, frankly.
 
Our strikers doesn't really get the chances though, more Garnacho who is missing a sure goal a game
This is a good point. Ten Hags downfall was designing an attack that funneled all our play to rashford and garnacho, and both had been incredibly wasteful this year. Garnacho this year has made me want to cry with his missed chances.

Saying that, hojlund almost always makes the wrong run and zirkzee is never in the damn box!
 
Chido needs to start getting minutes. I mean - would it really hurt? One can of course argue that he isn't ready, but what would you mean by that? He is hammering in goals for the reserves, and he already seems to have a physique that should make him able to compete.

It would also give Zirkzee and Højlund something to think about.

And I won't lie - it would be lovely to see some Arsenal supporters being bitter over United YET AGAIN stealing their attacking players from them - and those players doing well...

ERHM... ROBINVANPERSIE...ERHM...
 
Well, it depends a bit if you include the Europa League. If you do, then he's ~65th percentile in non-penalty goals over the last two years (and again he's an excellent finisher). But he's never shot at a high volume because he's poor at getting into threatening positions. This is exacerbated in the PL only, where his numbers are awful.

Shot volume is generally a better predictor of future success in young players versus finishing above xG - this is why I've always been a Hojlund skeptic, frankly.

I hear you but I am trying to be glass half full this year.

My maths is 65% currently. Add 10% improvement as he gains experience. Then 20% when we have a functional attack with wingbacks (instead of Antony or Garnacho blasting it over the bar everytime). That gets you to 95% which is good enough for now.
 
I hear you but I am trying to be glass half full this year.

My maths is 65% currently. Add 10% improvement as he gains experience. Then 20% when we have a functional attack with wingbacks (instead of Antony or Garnacho blasting it over the bar everytime). That gets you to 95% which is good enough for now.
Oh I don't disagree he has the capacity to get significantly better; much of this is down to the team around him being dysfunctional.

I just disagree with the notion that as soon as adequate wingbacks are dropped in he'll suddenly become elite - he also has to improve dramatically on his own in terms of movement in the box and getting shots away.
 
He's literally in the 1st percentile in shot volume over the past two years among strikers. Like 1.6 shots per 90. This is beyond atrocious.

Of course some of the blame goes onto the rest of the team but the simple fact of the matter is that he is extremely extremely bad at getting into dangerous positions. He's a very good finisher insofar as he consistently seems to outperform his xG but the total chances he gets on the end of are pitiful and have been dating to his time at Atalanta for the most part.
Some people seem to forget to consider that actually being in a position to take a chance is a skill in itself - it doesn't just happen!

The other thing about Hojlund is that he's a big part of the reason we struggle to build attacks, and therefore create chances.

Think back to the game last night...Nicholas Jackson is not exactly known for brilliant hold-up play, but there was a moment in the first half when he picked up the ball, beat a defender on the halfway line and clipped a perfect pass into Madueke with the outside of his boot - this led to a good chance. It was good play by Jackson, but we're not talking Messi levels.

The problem is, Hojlund NEVER pulls off a move like that. He wouldn't be able to get it under control, never mind beat someone, nevermind play a good pass with the outside of his boot.

Every ball that goes into Hojlund is either lost entirely, or stuck with him for 5 seconds, whilst he attempts to get it under control (or wrestle with the CB). No wonder Garnacho, Amad, Bruno etc...are never released into space early, and then ultimately in crossing / passing positions, because Hojlund generally kills every attack.

I haven't given up on him, but he was never a £70m forward. For that, you want a proven goalscorer. Not a raw talent.

As you mention, there's some good stuff...he is absolutely rapid, he doesn't stop making runs and his finishing is actually really good WHEN he gets a chance...but he's clumsy and naive at the minute.
 
Some people seem to forget to consider that actually being in a position to take a chance is a skill in itself - it doesn't just happen!

The other thing about Hojlund is that he's a big part of the reason we struggle to build attacks, and therefore create chances.

Think back to the game last night...Nicholas Jackson is not exactly known for brilliant hold-up play, but there was a moment in the first half when he picked up the ball, beat a defender on the halfway line and clipped a perfect pass into Madueke with the outside of his boot - this led to a good chance. It was good play by Jackson, but we're not talking Messi levels.

The problem is, Hojlund NEVER pulls off a move like that. He wouldn't be able to get it under control, never mind beat someone, nevermind play a good pass with the outside of his boot.

Every ball that goes into Hojlund is either lost entirely, or stuck with him for 5 seconds, whilst he attempts to get it under control (or wrestle with the CB). No wonder Garnacho, Amad, Bruno etc...are never released into space early, and then ultimately in crossing / passing positions, because Hojlund generally kills every attack.

I haven't given up on him, but he was never a £70m forward. For that, you want a proven goalscorer. Not a raw talent.

As you mention, there's some good stuff...he is absolutely rapid, he doesn't stop making runs and his finishing is actually really good WHEN he gets a chance...but he's clumsy and naive at the minute.
Yep 100%. And unless I'm completely misremembering some of the studies, by far the best predictor of a young attacking player's ceiling is their shot volume.

Didn't want to dig the boot in on Hojlund overmuch but his passing is also dreadful (PL only):


The numbers look better in all comps but this is pretty clearly unsustainable finishing in the Europa League:


Where you'd have to say the team has let him down is in terms of progressive passes received - which is very low. But at the same time, his passing numbers are appalling and he also doesn't really carry the ball very much at all - and to top it all off his shot totals are literally among the very worst in the world at his position.

Again not trying to be overly harsh but this notion that there's a 25-30 goal per year scorer waiting to be unlocked doesn't hold water for me.
 
It was obvious when Ronaldo left that we needed a 100M+ striker to replace his goalscoring. Say what you will about him and his impact, but he scored goals. We replaced that by overpaying for a winger in Antony, overpaying for a project in Hojlund and then throwing a hail Mary in there with 40M for Zirkzee.

200M for those three instead of 190-220M for Kane as the main man and Hojlund/Ferguson as his understudy (and then we overpay for the understudy btw) is an utterly ridiculous decision.

I argued the case for Kane at the time he was on the market. We could have broken Levy with a 125m bid. But no, we had to shovel into the furnace 80m on Antony and 70m on Hojlund, topped off with another 40m on Zirkzee.
 
I like Holjiund and Zirkzee. Both honest, hard working players who really want to make it work at United. However, I just don't see them ever being good enough.

If Holjund was playing for Palace and Zirkzee was playing for Fulham I wouldn't think either were anything special.

Good for them, personally feel done with this season if Obi-Martin isn't promoted quickly. We need some kind of freshness and excitement in that forward line and these two aren't that.
 
I argued the case for Kane at the time he was on the market. We could have broken Levy with a 125m bid. But no, we had to shovel into the furnace 80m on Antony and 70m on Hojlund, topped off with another 40m on Zirkzee.
Would Kane really want to come to United? I don't think he would. At the time Tottenham were a similar standard to us. He wants to win league titles, maybe the Champions League and that ain't happening here (or Spurs) for a long time. Bayern a good option as almost guaranteed silverware every year...
 
I argued the case for Kane at the time he was on the market. We could have broken Levy with a 125m bid. But no, we had to shovel into the furnace 80m on Antony and 70m on Hojlund, topped off with another 40m on Zirkzee.

Yeah don't forget another £45m on Onana and £55m on Mount so there's another £100m to kitty. I don't buy into Levy wouldn't have sold him to us we just put ourselves in a position where the money wasn't there to offer.
 
Boggles the mind that West Ham signed Kudus from Ajax, 1 year after we signed Antony from Ajax, for less than half of what we paid. How bad was ETH at gauging the potential of players.
Not sure why we didn't go for Kudus. Seemed like Ten Hag was trying to rebuild his Ajax team at United.