The obvious truth - Our goalscoring problem

[Grave Robber]

The signings of Zirkzee and Yoro for those prices highlight that Ineos are continuing the good tradition of Woodward and Murtough in identifying duds. Even if Yoro has talent, he is not a player we need.

Are the people who identified these 2 as priority signings still in their jobs? If so, I don't have much hope Ineos will correct this in the summer. Because if we don't have the tools to identify good players, it doesn't matter how much we spend.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

if you count Dorgu

Good one

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

This is the simple truth and has been for a long time - we can play as dominating or controlling football as we want, but we need 2 players who are proficient goal scorers, who could create their own chances at the slightest space available. We have currently got none. Such players aren't easy to get and given where United are, we need to take punt at potential players but also break bank for one player during the summer.

It’s not as simple as that. Hojlund did at least what you could reasonably expect from a young striker new to the league last season and still we struggled - if Garnacho and Bruno were better finishers Hojlund would’ve had some assists on top of his goals.
Now neither him nor Zirkzee are performing, but the team doesn’t create nearly enough chances either. We need a striker, yes, but we need much more than that as well

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I've posted this twice already, probably need to stop after this. We have a lot of issues overall, some of them very complex. The goalscoring problem is quite simple, though.

13/14: RvP, Rooney, Welbeck, Chicharito
14/15: Rooney, RvP, Falcao, Welbeck, Chicharito
15/16: Rooney, Martial, Memphis, Chicharito
16/17: Zlatan, Rooney, Memphis, Martial
17/18: Zlatan, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford
18/19: Lukaku, Sanchez, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood
19/20: Martial, Rashford, Ighalo, Greenwood
20/21: Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Ighalo, Greenwood
21/22: Ronaldo, Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood
22/23: Ronaldo, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Weghorst
23/24: Martial, Hojlund, Rashford
24/25: Hojlund, Zirkzee, Rashford

 

[CG1010]

It’s not as simple as that. Hojlund did at least what you could reasonably expect from a young striker new to the league last season and still we struggled - if Garnacho and Bruno were better finishers Hojlund would’ve had some assists on top of his goals.
Now neither him nor Zirkzee are performing, but the team doesn’t create nearly enough chances either. We need a striker, yes, but we need much more than that as well

Hojlund may have done as much as one could reasonably expect (although arguable) but it is nobody's case that he is a top goalscorer now. Neither are Garnacho, Bruno, Amad or others we have right now. Good players are able to score goals consistently when chances are laid out for them but great players get something from half opportunities. We don't have a single such player, and we desperately need one.

 

[Reds Under The Bed]

Part of the problem is spending an absolute premium on players who aren't close to premium performers.

This is probably the first time in my lifetime that United don't have a bona fide top class striker in the squad and I have been supporting them for more than 40 years.

I am not convinced Hojlund or Zirkzee would get a start at any other premier league club and we paid more than 100 million for the pair - it's madness.

We shouldn't be lining up at home to Crystal Palace with no strikers on the pitch - that's just defeatist.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

Hojlund may have done as much as one could reasonably expect (although arguable) but it is nobody's case that he is a top goalscorer now. Neither are Garnacho, Bruno, Amad or others we have right now. Good players are able to score goals consistently when chances are laid out for them but great players get something from half opportunities. We don't have a single such player, and we desperately need one.

I replied to a post claiming that the “simple truth” is we just need a striker - but it’s not that simple even though we do need one. Don’t know what you’re addressing really.

 

[CG1010]

I've posted this twice already, probably need to stop after this. We have a lot of issues overall, some of them very complex. The goalscoring problem is quite simple, though.

13/14: RvP, Rooney, Welbeck, Chicharito
14/15: Rooney, RvP, Falcao, Welbeck, Chicharito
15/16: Rooney, Martial, Memphis, Chicharito
16/17: Zlatan, Rooney, Memphis, Martial
17/18: Zlatan, Martial, Sanchez, Lukaku, Rashford
18/19: Lukaku, Sanchez, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood
19/20: Martial, Rashford, Ighalo, Greenwood
20/21: Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Ighalo, Greenwood
21/22: Ronaldo, Cavani, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood
22/23: Ronaldo, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Weghorst
23/24: Martial, Hojlund, Rashford
24/25: Hojlund, Zirkzee, Rashford

This! It is clearer if you add to the season goals alongside this:

Season	Goals Scored	League Position	Top Goalscorer (League Goals)
2013–14	64	7th	Wayne Rooney (17)
2014–15	62	4th	Wayne Rooney (12)
2015–16	49	5th	Anthony Martial (11)
2016–17	54	6th	Zlatan Ibrahimović (17)
2017–18	68	2nd	Romelu Lukaku (16)
2018–19	65	6th	Paul Pogba (13)
2019–20	66	3rd	Anthony Martial (17)
2020–21	73	2nd	Bruno Fernandes (18)
2021–22	57	6th	Cristiano Ronaldo (18)
2022–23	58	3rd	Marcus Rashford (17)
2023–24	57	8th	Rasmus Højlund, Bruno Fernandes (10 each)

 

[Nas-JR]

According to whoscored, across the Pl season, we are - 10.66 in goals scored vs expected goals, the second worst in the league. Our chance creation is midtable, our conversion rate (of which dumb and dumber up top heavily contribute to) is a disgrace.

 

[CG1010]

I replied to a post claiming that the “simple truth” is we just need a striker - but it’s not that simple even though we do need one. Don’t know what you’re addressing really.

You replied to my post talking somehow that Hojlund has done enough as can be expected of it. I don't know how that is relevant to me saying that we need great goalscorers (don't have to be strikers only). It is self evident and I feel that is 75% of our problem.

 

[Xeque_279]

Bruno always going for the Hollywood pass even when there are simpler options

He's toned it down a lot recently been very matured with his performances when played at CM.

Maybe I'm naive but I think if we got two good attacking WBs and a decent striker the side would be transformed.

100%. Will definitely "Complete" the team. Good attacking wingbacks make such a huge difference and we've even seen it in action when Amad has played there with a capable right AM. It effects the team as a whole and leads to the front 3 having so many more opportunities.

Even in Amorim's sporting (Before Gyokeres) the goals were always spread out, with the Top 3 scoring the most while Nuno Santos (LWB) contributed too.

 

[redshaw]

It's a huge problem. Some are looking at Onana, maybe he could tip the header over the bar, that's about it, we lose 0-1 or maybe they out jump our defenders from the resulting corner. We offered nothing in attack despite all the stats favouring us, this is a theme in most games.

We've faced many ordinary teams that are happy to play on the counter and just pick us off while we have more possession, more touches in the box, more shots etc. Teams simply funnel all our play and attacks easily. Just look at every chance we have yesterday, multiple defenders blocking shots, stretching and narrowing the angles for easy saves for Henderson.

We need to work the ball better to create easy chances, draw teams out and think about how we position ourselves if the pass doesn't make it. We've made it so easy for Bournemouth, Palace, Forest etc.

Also teams are exposing possession sides more with pace and physicality, getting players isolated man for man. It's been happening to us a lot this season. We can't underestimate how fast and easy other teams around us will move the ball quickly once soaking up pressure or out jump our defenders. We left so much space for Palace, even on a freekick we tried to push up higher and they just popped a ball over to the edge of the box to run and meet resulting in a looping header off the bar, our defenders backpedaling the whole time, Yoro easily outjumped.

Hemming teams in to face block after block, easy save after easy save while leaving huge space behind is not the answer, we'll continue to not score and concede 2-3 goals per game at OT.

 

[Schmeichels pinky]

You replied to my post talking somehow that Hojlund has done enough as can be expected of it. I don't know how that is relevant to me saying that we need great goalscorers (don't have to be strikers only). It is self evident and I feel that is 75% of our problem.

Oh, forgot it was your post! Anyway, my point is that we need a lot more than that. If it was 75% it would be so easy to fix, I just don’t think it is.
I said he did as can be expected last season, not this of course.

 

[Wolfbot]

We are just so incohesive in attack. I think there are a number of reasons for this:

1. Bruno always going for the Hollywood pass even when there are simpler options
2. Wingbacks who don't get forward forces our AMs to take wider positions
3. We don't have a striker who can hold up the play

Maybe I'm naive but I think if we got two good attacking WBs and a decent striker the side would be transformed. I still feel long term Bruno is a problem we need to try and solve.

Bruno isn't a problem to be solved. You have said long term which is fair enough, we're a long long way from that point though. Most the goals we do score are because he's tried something that's not the safe option.

People moan about him giving the ball away or trying Holywood passes. Sure stuff doesn't come off all the time, that's true of most creative players which folk would see if they spent any decent amount of time watching other teams.

Sure, we could replace him with somebody who plays it safer, we'll not be better for it though, we'd score even less goals in my opinion. We literally moan about the wider players playing it safe nearly every week but seem to want this from our most creative outlet, it's quite strange.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I don’t really mind them identifying younger talents to develop, our front line has a huge amount of upside on paper but it’s extremely young. My issue is the system we play seems so poor at generally creating any kind of regular chances and fans just turn on players because they’re the easiest thing to think is to blame. Whatever the tactical plan is, it isn’t working in terms of bringing the ball forwards and having drilled ideas of how to put the ball into dangerous areas. People can criticise Hojlind, Zirkzee, Garnacho, Mainoo all they want, all can improve, but if our tactics are so basic that we need a world class CF, for example, they aren’t good tactics. Pool look like they will win the league without even playing a traditional CF. There has to more be scrutiny on what the actual plan of offensively because it seems so vague at the moment.

I am hopeful Dorgu can show how important the WBs are and whilst I doubt he will single handedly change anything, him LWB and Dalot on the right should be a bit of balance.

 

[CG1010]

Oh, forgot it was your post! Anyway, my point is that we need a lot more than that. If it was 75% it would be so easy to fix, I just don’t think it is.
I said he did as can be expected last season, not this of course.

Sounds simple but isn't because it costs a lot of money to get such established players and normally they wouldn't get convinced to join our club.

 

[flappyjay]

We can talk about Onana’s passing drills, the defence’s occasional comedy routines, or last season’s injuries, but let’s be honest—the biggest issue is staring us in the face.

We simply don’t score enough goals.

Last season, we managed 57 league goals, and this season, we’re on track for even fewer. In the past decade, only two teams have scraped into the top four with fewer than 60 goals. Our response? Sign four defensive players (five if you count Dorgu) and bring in Zirkzee as a backup striker. Then, for good measure, we start losing Rashford and Antony with no replacements. Because why not make an already weak attack even weaker?

I back Højlund, but let’s not act surprised that he’s struggling. Even if every player in the squad hit their best-ever goal tally, we still wouldn’t reach 60 goals. Did we really plan for Garnacho, Amad, and Mainoo to cover the shortfall? That’s not a strategy—that’s blind faith.

And what’s with every attack somehow finding its way back to Bruno? No matter where we start, we always hit the reset button. Players like Garnacho and Amad thrive on direct play, yet we’re forcing them into a never-ending game of “pass it back to Bruno” instead of letting them cause chaos.

When you bring it up during the window " great teams are built on a strong defence " i imagine thats what our recruitment team thought too. I think our defence is good enough for a top 6 finish but our attack is definitely bottom 10.

 

[Roane]

Crystal Palace set up the way Amorim wants to play. Their striker showed what is needed in this system.

Another obvious thing for me is physicality. This is key in the Premier league. This league is unforgiving if you don't have physicality with more technical (but physically weaker) players.

Shearer and Rooney types did so well because they were big and physical. Hojlund and Zirkzee are big and Bambi on ice.

 

[11101]

We know we need a striker. We break into space quite often, even the wingbacks, but we have to check our runs and go backwards because there's never anybody in the middle looking to break the lines or get on crosses.

The other issue was when we did play strikers the likes of Garnacho, Amad and Rashford only ever want to dribble and shoot, but I think they have learned better now.

Where do you find a guaranteed 20+ goal striker? One in a club who doesn't have the luxury of always sitting back and countering.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Crystal Palace set up the way Amorim wants to play. Their striker showed what is needed in this system.

Another obvious thing for me is physicality. This is key in the Premier league. This league is unforgiving if you don't have physicality with more technical (but physically weaker) players.

Shearer and Rooney types did so well because they were big and physical. Hojlund and Zirkzee are big and Bambi on ice.

Only in that they have the same formation. Their way of playing is completely different, it’s basically allow teams into certain areas and then be super aggressive to try and force a mistake/turnover and feed a narrow/fast front three.

 

[Wolfbot]

Outside of the obviously lack of quality in Hojlund and Zirkzee in getting into goal scoring positions, the biggest issue for me is taking too long on the ball.

We won't create chances and score goals if we have so many touches after every pass, play slow passes, constantly check back from advanced wide positions and don't take players on.

From the games I've seen this season, goals have largely come from Fernandes or Martinez trying a progressive pass or Amad running at people with the ball or using his pace to press hard and force mistakes.

In recent games we seem to have become even more slow and ponderous in possession. It gives the illusion of control but we're not making it challenging for the opposition at all in most games. We don't move the ball with any speed or intent and as a result are not creating enough quality chances, not scoring many goals and to compound the misery, being punished when we make mistakes.

There has to be a balance, it can't be gung-ho fire the ball forward as fast as you can (which is essentially what we did under Ten Hag and often got destroyed), but equally we can't continue to coast through the majority of games. There needs to be a serious upping of the tempo and intensity if we're going to be serious about winning league games.

 

[jderbyshire]

I was just looking at the "which forward will we sign on deadline day" thread and I'm thinking, no matter who we bring in, it's not going to result in a drastic increase in goals scored.

We are 11th in the league for 'big chances created'

It doesn't matter if it's Hojlund, Zirkzee or Harry Kane - we aren't creating enough chances.

 

[Escobar]

The signings of Zirkzee and Yoro for those prices highlight that Ineos are continuing the good tradition of Woodward and Murtough in identifying duds. Even if Yoro has talent, he is not a player we need.

Are the people who identified these 2 as priority signings still in their jobs? If so, I don't have much hope Ineos will correct this in the summer. Because if we don't have the tools to identify good players, it doesn't matter how much we spend.

If we would not have signed him he would have moved to another club. Fans have zero patience anymore

 

[Escobar]

I was just looking at the "which forward will we sign on deadline day" thread and I'm thinking, no matter who we bring in, it's not going to result in a drastic increase in goals scored.

We are 11th in the league for 'big chances created'

It doesn't matter if it's Hojlund, Zirkzee or Harry Kane - we aren't creating enough chances.

I agree that the problem roots deeper but how can you create chances for the main player if their movement, positioning, overall play is crap

 

[Mike Smalling]

The obvious truth goes beyond just our goalscoring ability. It encompasses the entire squad - all areas of the pitch. We genuinely have a bottom half of the league squad, and I don't think that's an overstatement. Disregarding whatever formation we put them in, try and individually assess every area of the pitch.

Goalkeeper - Onana is poor. Gives away too many soft goals and can't be trusted. Bottom half of the table material.
Centrebacks - One area where we have decent players. De Ligt is a good defender, Martinez has his qualities (although now injured), Maguire can defend most of the time, etc. Maybe top 8 material here.
Fullbacks - Another really bad area for us. Mazraoui is a tidy footballer, but provides very little offensively. Dalot is a poor defender and messes up most things going forward. Malacia is terrible. Again I'd say bottom half of the table in terms of quality.
Central midfield - Such a mixed bag of players with varying degrees of usefulness, but the overall theme is that most of them have major weaknesses. I think Ugarte and Bruno are good players, but Eriksen, Mainoo, and Casemiro all have such major flaws that they can't be trusted on a regular basis. They are bit part players in a team that needs quality starters. Genuinely we again have bottom half of the table quality here.
Wide forwards - With Antony and Rashford gone (thankfully), we are down to Garnacho and Amad here. I have a lot of time for both of them, but they are young and learning in every way. If we are being generous this is maybe top 10 quality.
Strikers - The worst of the bunch. We have one of the worst sets of strikers in the league, I don't think many will argue with that. Full stop. Bottom 5 quality here.

So summing up, our goalkeeper gives away cheap goals, our fullbacks provide next to nothing going forward, our midfield is easily outplayed and outfought, our wingers are inconsistent, and our strikers can not hold up the ball, create anything for themselves or score goals. It's dire. Absolutely abysmal.

 

[dcrompton]

Hojlund and Zirkzee combined are tied on goals with Gvardiol (5)

 

[Reds Under The Bed]

What is alarming though is we are reducing our attacking options significantly and not replacing them. Surely from a logistic point of view alone, we shouldn't be expecting to see out the rest of the season with three of Zirkzee, Hojlund, Garnacho and Amad each game and that's it.

Common sense would tell you we are one or two injuries away from not having those to rely on. It's especially worrying.

 

[Zed 101]

I think in general there are currently very few out and out top quality number 9s in the current generation of players, I have trawled through all the leagues having a look see who is standing out, and there really is just not that many.

I am also not sure what profile striker would work in this side, the obvious would be Gyokeres but he is currently playing in a functioning team that supports him, don't get me wrong, yes Salah or Haaland would come in and score, but I am not sure that any striker is not coming in and struggling.

Will be interesting to see if there is any change with Dorgu (not expecting some earth shartering change) do we suddenly look more creative, it will be an indicator that the issue lies with the players not fitting the system

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Totally agree!
When SAF was here, he would always insist on having the best strikers that he could bring in.
And he would pay big money for those strikers.
Now, we seem to target strikers who would struggle to start for a team in the bottom half of the league.

I do hope that Amorim targets a top class, proven, big name striker, because spending big money on these low profile strikers isn't working.
Goals are what win games and high-profile strikers tend to score the goals.

To think that we are now relying on Zirksee and Hojlund is insane.

But they are. They are starting for us.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I think in general there are currently very few out and out top quality number 9s in the current generation of players, I have trawled through all the leagues having a look see who is standing out, and there really is just not that many.

I am also not sure what profile striker would work in this side, the obvious would be Gyokeres but he is currently playing in a functioning team that supports him, don't get me wrong, yes Salah or Haaland would come in and score, but I am not sure that any striker is not coming in and struggling.

Will be interesting to see if there is any change with Dorgu (not expecting some earth shartering change) do we suddenly look more creative, it will be an indicator that the issue lies with the players not fitting the system

Yeah it is a wider point about what our plan is to create goals, I think we're still trying to figure that out a bit. Hojlund and Zirkzee are tactically very different and whilst both have issues, we know Hojlund can be a decent enough player if you play to his strengths and I am sure Zirkzee could be as well. But we don't really seem to have much of a plan for them other than really direct balls into them and often leaving them isolated. I will say, even in the bad games he played, Hojlund did set up Garnacho for essentially an open goal and then did the same for Mainoo (naturally United are cursed and we missed both). People on this forum have got it into their heads we have two random blokes from the park up front and there's just no hope.

 

[bosnian_red]

What is alarming though is we are reducing our attacking options significantly and not replacing them. Surely from a logistic point of view alone, we shouldn't be expecting to see out the rest of the season with three of Zirkzee, Hojlund, Garnacho and Amad each game and that's it.

Common sense would tell you we are one or two injuries away from not having those to rely on. It's especially worrying.

It's obvious the board have written the season off. Don't get relegated, hope for a cup, and re-evaluate in the summer with how much we can bring in and who can we sign to score goals. League games are glorified friendlies at this point

 

[Zed 101]

It's obvious the board have written the season off. Don't get relegated, hope for a cup, and re-evaluate in the summer with how much we can bring in and who can we sign to score goals. League games are glorified friendlies at this point

They wrote the season off when they didn't sack Ten Hag straight after the FA cup, or even before it!

Not sure what else they can do from here other than replacing Amorim and then even then maybe they have realised how poor the squad is we are not going to get above mid table regardless

 

[Paul778]

They wrote the season off when they didn't sack Ten Hag straight after the FA cup, or even before it!

Not sure what else they can do from here other than replacing Amorim and then even then maybe they have realised how poor the squad is we are not going to get above mid table regardless

Even with a new manager they would say the same. We have a lot of young players, a lot of old players and not a lot of 'just right' players. From a physicality perspective most of them are also a combination of one or more of the following: too short, too slow, too weak, too little stamina. And they struggle to make a 6 yard pass.

All of the above are just fundamentals before going into systems.

Getting a tune out of them, turning us into a modern CL challenging team and not moments FC on the counter attack is a big job.

 

[OmarUnited4ever]

We have the worst strikers in the league that are consistently playing and given a lot of minutes, both have 5 goals in the league between them!

We should sell both next summer and find 2 new strikers.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

It's obvious the board have written the season off. Don't get relegated, hope for a cup, and re-evaluate in the summer with how much we can bring in and who can we sign to score goals. League games are glorified friendlies at this point

Which you get to pay £66 for the privilege of attending!

 

[RedSky]

There are 134 players in the PL that have scored 2 goals or more. If you look at all these players and divide their total minutes played by goals you get to see the Min per Goal ratio.

Rashford is the highest ranked United player on 245.8mins per goal, he is ranked 39th
Diallio is 2nd highest with 265.8mins per goal, ranked 46th
Zirkzee is 3rd with 292.0mins per goal, ranked 55th
Bruno is 4th with 386mins per goal, ranked 76th
Garnacho is 5th with 439.3mins per goal, ranked 83rd

So we have 2 players featured in the top 50, one of whom is now on loan to Villa. Our forward lineup is honestly abysmal.

If you look at Goals and Assists, Diallo is 28th and Bruno 50th. No other United player in the top 50. Hojlund is ranked 119th in the G+A stats, 557.5mins, which if you look at all the FWD's listed in Whoscored as FWD's is the worst ranked FWD (who have scored 2 goals or more).

Season​	GF​
24/25​	28 (after 24 games)​
23/24​	57​
22/23​	58​
21/22​	57​
20/21​	73​
19/20​	66​
18/19​	65​
17/18​	68​
16/17​	54​
15/16​	49​

It's going to be 4 seasons now before we last had an acceptable goal scoring season. I would argue that even scoring 60-70 goals isn't good enough, but that's a pipe dream right now. That's how far we've fallen.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

The sad thing is, Brighton have a young, talented striker who has struggled for goals recently - so they're loaning him out to get him that experience and hopefully get some goals.

We have two young, (supposdely) talented strikers who are struggling for goals recently - but we literally no choice other then to play them.