The notion that we will fail to attract top players if we don't make the CL

But are we going to play over the odds now?

Maybe we are going to do so.
 
Red Shorts said:
At the end of the day, money talks. If we want to get the big signings we need and want, we will have to do a PSG/City/Monaco and go Sheikh-spending style on players. Simple as that really. Whether the Glazers will go this length however remains to be seen.
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The Glazers going that length is something we won't know. What really surprises me is that most fans now will welcome that kind of splurge after antagonizing opposition fans of those clubs for their clubs trying to buy their way back to the top. I agree that it will be our money earned by our performances on the field, but we also frown upon Real and Barca for doing the same. It's amazing what one poor season and an out-of-his-depth manager can do to fans.
 
NK86 said:
The Glazers going that length is something we won't know. What really surprises me is that most fans now will welcome that kind of splurge after antagonizing opposition fans of those clubs for their clubs trying to buy their way back to the top. I agree that it will be our money earned by our performances on the field, but we also frown upon Real and Barca for doing the same. It's amazing what one poor season and an out-of-his-depth manager can do to fans.
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Nobody frowns on Real and Barca as such, if anything there is more an envy that everyone wants to play for them. The only thing frowned upon is some seeming actions of corruption in how they operate.

They are great and prestigious clubs though, everyone knows that.
 
malappapper said:
Can a club attract players by paying top dollar without CL football? The answer is a resounding yes.

The caveat here though is the following one. Say United or another club (but with CL football on offer) make a similar offer for a player both in terms of wages and transfer fees. Then that player will in all probability tend to choose the CL club. It's not entirely correct that players care only about the money. If I am not mistaken, David Villa had a better offer from Spurs (and I would assume Barcelona as well, in terms of transfer fees) in terms of money than from Atletico, but chose Atleti, partly for the CL opportunity, and partly because of wanting to stay in his native land.

So, to return to the question, the problem with not having CL football on offer, is not that you cannot attract top players, but that you will probably have to overpay for them.
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Spot on.

No CL football + Moyes at the helm could be quite a problem though. Even when we were with Fergie and in the CL, it wasn't easy to attract top stars, let alone without Fergie and CL football. It's true that money talks but our debt is huge, let's not forget about that.
 
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Rozay said:
Nobody frowns on Real and Barca as such, if anything there is more an envy that everyone wants to play for them. The only thing frowned upon is some seeming actions of corruption in how they operate.

They are great and prestigious clubs though, everyone knows that.
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I have seen plenty on here accusing Real of paying over the odds for players. And now the same people are fine with us doing so.
 
The trouble isn't whether we are going to pay over the odds or not, it's whether Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool and Man City will and I think they will. Arsenal's stadium paid off, Liverpool back in the UCL and looking to cement that position, Chelsea with Mourinho and City... are City.

Good centre backs and left backs are doing to be in demand, I can see Liverpool in for a top midfielder too.

It also wouldn't surprise me if any of our targets become targets of these clubs by default.

So while we might think paying £200,000 a week to player X might be over the odds but something we are prepared to do, so might a team with Champions League football and all of a sudden it's £250,000 a week to compensate. I can't see the Glazers going down that route.
 
Treble said:
No CL football + Moyes at the helm could be quite a problem though. Even when we were with Fergie and in the CL, it wasn't easy to attract top stars, let alone without Fergie and CL football. It's true that money talks but our debt is huge, let's not forget about that.
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I think this is true. This season Utd have been portrayed in all the media as a club in turmoil, decline even. How many top players would risk signing 5 years of their playing career to a team that may not make it back into the elite competition? Money is important to them, but I also feel success is too, top players want to be playing with other top players and in the top competitions, where they feel they belong.

Talk about City managing to sign top players is not really comparable in my view, with all their money and the visible intent from the owners to improve the Club right down to the infrastructure, it was only a matter of when, not if they made it to the top table.
 
You can't compare us to Monaco because their players don't pay any tax.
 
NK86 said:
The Glazers going that length is something we won't know. What really surprises me is that most fans now will welcome that kind of splurge after antagonizing opposition fans of those clubs for their clubs trying to buy their way back to the top. I agree that it will be our money earned by our performances on the field, but we also frown upon Real and Barca for doing the same. It's amazing what one poor season and an out-of-his-depth manager can do to fans.
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Barcelona are a club who buy their way to the top?
 
NK86 said:
The Glazers going that length is something we won't know. What really surprises me is that most fans now will welcome that kind of splurge after antagonizing opposition fans of those clubs for their clubs trying to buy their way back to the top. I agree that it will be our money earned by our performances on the field, but we also frown upon Real and Barca for doing the same. It's amazing what one poor season and an out-of-his-depth manager can do to fans.
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This doesn't make any sense, when Real Madrid and Barca have always been at the top? We are 7th, bit different from being 2nd or 3rd.
 
Well having the UCL on offer is obviously a positive to potential signings but it's just 1 of the many variables they consider.

Others would include money, manager/tactics/plan, role in team, team/history/prestige/"dreams", location etc

How high up on the list the UCL ranks would obviously differ on a player to player basis so it definitely can't be discounted, but it's by no means as huge a deterrent as it's made out to be.
 
Rozay said:
Is rubbish.

The only thing that gives credence to such theory is that the best money usually has a correlation to the clubs that play in the Champions League. That's all. I can understand an element of nervousness around our transfer dealings as we've perhaps played the apologetic nerd as opposed to the high-school jock in our recent pursuits of all the fit birds, but so long as that changes, so will the outcomes.

We have proof in our very own League, our own city in fact, where a team originally without European football (or pedigree) built a CL team and title winning squad by throwing money at it. Over the last three summers, the 3 most coveted centre-forwards were lured to the fecking French League, one of whom went without CL football, simply by spending money on them.

If we intend to dine at such tables, then we will have little problem. We are a far more prestigious club than majority of the teams who have monopolised the transfer market in recent years. The big question is whether we would now be willing to meet release clauses, pay agents, and pay top wages now. If January is anything to go by, that looks to be the case. We met a very expensive release clause for Mata, a clause that will probably be higher or around the same as most of the players we wish to pursue this summer. We then paid Wayne Rooney more money than he is worth, so we may be seeing a change in attitude.
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First of all, so you're suggesting that we have become like City now? That's enough to prove how bad was it to miss on a Champions League spot.

Second, you seem to be forgetting something here.. We don't have a sugar Daddy.

Third, it's about competition with other clubs to sign the world class players. When the other clubs can offer a lot of money too, it will be a no-brainer decision for the player when we can't offer them Champions League football, while the other clubs can. Which is why if we want to compete now we won't need to spend as much as City does, but considerably more than them, just like what City did before they got to the Champions League.
 
Come on, all it's about and all it's ever been about is money. Don't kid yourselves!
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
Come on, all it's about and all it's ever been about is money. Don't kid yourselves!
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Exactly. Joining a club with a big reputation and history is only a bonus. I'm pretty sure even for Ronnie it was a major part of the reason he wanted to Real, not only because he was a fan of them as a boy but also because he knew they would pretty much double his wage.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
Come on, all it's about and all it's ever been about is money. Don't kid yourselves!
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Money is obviously the most important element. The problem for United will be when they get involved in a tug of war with clubs who can offer similar sums of cash, AND Champions League football on top.
 
Vidic_In_Moscow said:
Come on, all it's about and all it's ever been about is money. Don't kid yourselves!
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NoLogo said:
Exactly. Joining a club with a big reputation and history is only a bonus. I'm pretty sure even for Ronnie it was a major part of the reason he wanted to Real, not only because he was a fan of them as a boy but also because he knew they would pretty much double his wage.
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We're talking about Champions League football here, aren't we? Both of you are dodging the point.

All big clubs have money. With no Champions League football you're out of the race (with the other clubs who also have money) in more than 50% of the cases.
 
Green_Red said:
If Plymouth argyle offered me £100,000 a week and Manchester United offered me £90,000 a week I'd sign for Plymouth. That's £520,000 more a year. 5 year contact makes it £2,600,000 more. Only a complete and utter spastic would turn that down, unless it was a boyhood dream to play for United, which doesn't happen often that your boyhood team comes in for you, and even if that was the case it would be hard to turn it down.

Money talks.
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Not everyone thinks like that and it's foolish to think they do, I for one would sign where I had more chance of success or where I wanted to play. Footballers get paid a disgusting amount of money, but just sit back and think about it for a minute, realistically how much of a difference would £10k make in the life of a footballer who was already getting £90k a week? In the case of Rooney who was getting £250k a week, £1m a month; I honestly don't know what he spent it on how can you spend that sort of money never mind getting another £50k a week bundled in to the bargain.

Maybe that's just me.
 
Danny1982 said:
We're talking about Champions League football here, aren't we? Both of you are dodging the point.

All big clubs have money. With no Champions League football you're out of the race (with the other clubs who also have money) in more than 50% of the cases.
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I think it really depends. If you are a player that for example wants to play on the international stage to show their national team coaches that they can play at the best level and deserve a place in their national team as well, then yeah it might be a factor.

For anyone who is already an established player and has won a lot of trophies the money he can make at a club will always be more important imo and especially if he knows the club has the ability to build a team that can play CL footballer in a year or two.

So no I don't think it will be a factor for us, especially because the next big international tournament will be in two years once the WC is over and the transfer window is open again.

The real question probably has to be if we can still offer wages that compete with the other top clubs in the world and so far I don't see anything suggesting we can't.
 
Saoirse. said:
Not everyone thinks like that and it's foolish to think they do, I for one would sign where I had more chance of success or where I wanted to play. Footballers get paid a disgusting amount of money, but just sit back and think about it for a minute, realistically how much of a difference would £10k make in the life of a footballer who was already getting £90k a week? In the case of Rooney who was getting £250k a week, £1m a month; I honestly don't know what he spent it on how can you spend that sort of money never mind getting another £50k a week bundled in to the bargain.

Maybe that's just me.
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Personally I see £10,000 difference as £5,400,000 over the course of 10 years. No chance I'd be signing just for the glory of lifting a trophy. Not everyone thinks like that, maybe its just me..

The example was hypothetical anyway. I guess if Plymouth were paying £10,000 a week more in wages to players, then they'd probably be competing for the trophies too. Like when those players signed for Chelsea, City, PSG.. they weren't joining teams steeped in history and a tradition of winning. They knew the project.
 
Green_Red said:
Personally I see £10,000 difference as £5,400,000 over the course of 10 years. No chance I'd be signing just for the glory of lifting a trophy. Not everyone thinks like that, maybe its just me..
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I can't comprehend that in fairness, I suppose it depends what your priorities are in life.
 
Saoirse. said:
I can't comprehend that in fairness, I suppose it depends what your priorities are in life.
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It has more to do with how much you romanticise the job that is a professional footballer.

Use this as an example. How long have you been in your job? Same company, good friends, career development, good boss, close to where you work etc. A certain level of loyalty and that. Monday morning you turn in to work and you get a call from the competition. They want to poach you, and they offer you 10% increase in wages. What do you do? Turn it down because of loyalty to your current employer, or do you think about the nice new car you could have. Or the holiday abroad. Or put your kids through college, move to a nicer area, better healthcare for your sick child, or sibling, or parent. Now think that a footballer who runs around a pitch has exactly the same life situations that you do. People who rely on them, people who they look after with money. Its not all selfish, I'm a footballer and I want to win a trophy for my personal gratification. More like, I have a cousin who is in financial stress and I can help. A family friend who cant afford their cancer treatment. A neighbour who is poor. Endless.

Now tell me that the extra £5,400,000 isn't worth taking.
 
Saoirse. said:
Not everyone thinks like that and it's foolish to think they do, I for one would sign where I had more chance of success or where I wanted to play. Footballers get paid a disgusting amount of money, but just sit back and think about it for a minute, realistically how much of a difference would £10k make in the life of a footballer who was already getting £90k a week? In the case of Rooney who was getting £250k a week, £1m a month; I honestly don't know what he spent it on how can you spend that sort of money never mind getting another £50k a week bundled in to the bargain.

Maybe that's just me.
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A part of it will be ego driven, we're talking about mega rich males here and the size of their pay packets will be seen as a reflection on them, the highest form of cock measuring if you will. The reason your insistence that Suarez won't leave Anfield is not taken seriously, money talks at the end of the day but the financial gain is only part of the reasoning in these guys minds.
 
How many big players have moved to clubs outside the CL? PSG's biggest signing before they qualified for the CL was Pastore. City got Tévez, Toure and Silva. Milan's biggest signing was Kaká for free in their first season with no CL. Spurs have money to spend but the best big name talent they could attract to replace Bale was Lamela. Liverpool got Suárez. Chelsea brought in Makélélé and Crespo. It can be done but I don't think it's wrong to suggest that it does make things a little more difficult.
 
gasmanc said:
A part of it will be ego driven, we're talking about mega rich males here and the size of their pay packets will be seen as a reflection on them, the highest form of cock measuring if you will. The reason your insistence that Suarez won't leave Anfield is not taken seriously, money talks at the end of the day but the financial gain is only part of the reasoning in these guys minds.
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The biggest part of it is driven by knowing that football is primarily a business for everyone involved outside the level of supporters. Plain and simple its business. Why would anyone let a company make money off them and not expect a fair share of the profit? That would be naïve to say the least. Imagine you rolled out a successful project at work that saved the company $100,000 a year. Would you want a bonus? If your company started selling company branded tshirts with your name on them, because you were so good at your job people wanted to show their appreciation, and the company was making $20 a shirt. Would you want your fair share of the pie? Of course you would. And if you let someone get rich off you and didn't demand your slice, well then you are a chump.
 
The primary thing that is attractive about Champions League football to football players, is the fact that if you're a champions league footballer you're worth a lot more in sponsorships and such. A club can easily subsidise that by paying them more wages, and stuffing a few pockets along the way, hence teams like PSG and City can attract players before they reach the Champions League. Not being in the Champions League will have absolutely no realistic impact on our ability to attract players, as the 'attraction of Champions League' is really an attraction of money, which we have.
 
Green_Red said:
If Plymouth argyle offered me £100,000 a week and Manchester United offered me £90,000 a week I'd sign for Plymouth. That's £520,000 more a year. 5 year contact makes it £2,600,000 more. Only a complete and utter spastic would turn that down, unless it was a boyhood dream to play for United, which doesn't happen often that your boyhood team comes in for you, and even if that was the case it would be hard to turn it down.

Money talks.
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Ah to play in Division 2 with nobodies and become a nobody yourself or to play at the highest level of football in the world in the Premier League and Champions League and make a name for yourself worldwide at the expense of £10,000 a week when you are already earning £90,000 a week. It is nowhere near as clear cut as you say it is. As to how someone is a spastic for turning that down is beyond me. Perhaps a poor example on your part, would be better if you used one of the sugar daddy clubs at the top as an example.
 
United22 said:
Ah to play in Division 2 with nobodies and become a nobody yourself or to play at the highest level of football in the world in the Premier League and Champions League and make a name for yourself worldwide at the expense of £10,000 a week when you are already earning £90,000 a week. It is nowhere near as clear cut as you say it is. As to how someone is a spastic for turning that down is beyond me. Perhaps a poor example on your part, would be better if you used one of the sugar daddy clubs at the top as an example.
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Unfortunately it seems that using Plymouth Argyle in a hypothetical example is something people are having trouble understanding. Maybe I should have said Manchester City or Arsenal.

Since we're on the topic.. Man Utd are no longer a champions league team.
 
Green_Red said:
It has more to do with how much you romanticise the job that is a professional footballer.

Use this as an example. How long have you been in your job? Same company, good friends, career development, good boss, close to where you work etc. A certain level of loyalty and that. Monday morning you turn in to work and you get a call from the competition. They want to poach you, and they offer you 10% increase in wages. What do you do? Turn it down because of loyalty to your current employer, or do you think about the nice new car you could have. Or the holiday abroad. Or put your kids through college, move to a nicer area, better healthcare for your sick child, or sibling, or parent. Now think that a footballer who runs around a pitch has exactly the same life situations that you do. People who rely on them, people who they look after with money. Its not all selfish, I'm a footballer and I want to win a trophy for my personal gratification. More like, I have a cousin who is in financial stress and I can help. A family friend who cant afford their cancer treatment. A neighbour who is poor. Endless.

Now tell me that the extra £5,400,000 isn't worth taking.
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Honestly, no if I was really happy where I was working and was getting a decent wage I don't think I would uproot my family and move for the sake of a 10% pay rise. t's not about loyalty either, its about enjoying where you are working. BIB I sincerely doubt this applies to many footballers.
 
gasmanc said:
A part of it will be ego driven, we're talking about mega rich males here and the size of their pay packets will be seen as a reflection on them, the highest form of cock measuring if you will. The reason your insistence that Suarez won't leave Anfield is not taken seriously, money talks at the end of the day but the financial gain is only part of the reasoning in these guys minds.
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying I personally don't understand how footballers who are receiving extortionate amounts of money, presumably more money than they can even spend will up sticks and leave just to earn money that they don't need.
 
Our problem historically in the transfer market is this: we typically offer anything between half to 80% of what is needed and what others have put up.


If we pay proper fees and wages we can compete with absolutely anyone. CL or not.
 
Saoirse. said:
Honestly, no if I was really happy where I was working and was getting a decent wage I don't think I would uproot my family and move for the sake of a 10% pay rise. t's not about loyalty either, its about enjoying where you are working. BIB I sincerely doubt this applies to many footballers.
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I don't doubt you and I'm not going to tell that you're full of shit. But honestly? You wouldn't change jobs for extra 10%. That's crazy. Particularly when you are Irish and the recession has ripped the feck out of the place, cutbacks, high taxes, inflation, on and on.. And that's if you're even lucky to have a job. I personally travelled to the other side of the world just so that I could have one, so there is obviously a major difference in our outlook.

But to go back to the Plymouth / United example. If United said they would match the offer. I wouldn't have to think twice.
 
I would add also that if we can get one or two bigger names in early it will help attract others as they see we mean business in our rebuild.
 
Its not impossible to attract players without CL football, it is just more difficult. Not all players, but a great many of them want to play in europe, if you can't offer that as a club but another club can than this can be a deciding factor for some to chose for the other club. Ofcourse money is still the major incentive and United still counts as a club many think we'll easily get back in the CL next year, so as long as we pay up we'll land our targets. If United won't be in the CL for 2 years in a row than I think it will start to become a real issue in player negotiations and if we're not prepared to pay market prices or above we won't land any of our targets thats for sure. The lure United had as a club has greatly diminished because Fergie left and Moyes proved he can't win shit and even stay in top 4. That said we still have more allure than clubs like PSG or City had when they started spending big and there is still the believe this setback for United is temporal. I think if Moyes screws up next year aswell is when the allure of United will really start to fallback alot.
 
Green_Red said:
I don't doubt you and I'm not going to tell that you're full of shit. But honestly? You wouldn't change jobs for extra 10%. That's crazy. Particularly when you are Irish and the recession has ripped the feck out of the place, cutbacks, high taxes, inflation, on and on.. And that's if you're even lucky to have a job. I personally travelled to the other side of the world just so that I could have one, so there is obviously a major difference in our outlook.

But to go back to the Plymouth / United example. If United said they would match the offer. I wouldn't have to think twice.
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Yea but I have a good wage that is ample for me needs, 10% would be lovely but taking into consideration the upheaval it would cause I don't feel it would be worth it. Everyone's different I guess, money isn't a priority in my life in the sense that as long as I don't have money worries if that makes sense.
 
Saoirse. said:
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying I personally don't understand how footballers who are receiving extortionate amounts of money, presumably more money than they can even spend will up sticks and leave just to earn money that they don't need.
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Yea it's not a thing "normal" people have to deal with and I was just pointing out that they are in exceptional circumstances and aside from the financial gain their reasoning will be outside of anything we as mere mortals can understand.
At the elite end of the game players will of course be drawn to elite clubs such as Real, Barca, Bayern etc as they will want to test their mettle in those sides but the draw outside of that ie PSG etc is financially motivated and backed by ego, Ibra for example will be keen to be picking up the same money or perhaps more as a massage to his ego confirming himself as one of the highest sought after talents in the World.
The monetary value is key but not just from a financial security viewpoint, there's other factors at work also.
 
Now transfer window is up, let us revisit this. Forget about Di Maria for a second as people may say he only joined Man utd for the money.

Now let us look at Falcao:

1)This guy is playing in Monaco, one of the most beautiful cities in the world, you might not think it makes a difference/petty to a player but south american teams choose Spain over England for the weather and the city. He is didn't care, sill came.

2)Monaco is also a place where so little tax and he is probably earning 3/5 more at Monaco than Man utd because of the tax.Which player would do that? Yet he still moved here.

3)People say why would a player move from a Club that has CL football to come to Man utd? What do you know, As Monaco have CL football this year, yet he still came here to man utd.

So, he is earning less money/shity weather/shittier city (let us just admit it)/No CL football. Yet he still came to us. People may say maybe other teams passed him on, but then why did he not stay at Monaco considering all the factors mentioned above? I know I would stay.

It makes me like Flacao even more know. Yet the Media don't mention this at all.
 
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