The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

JPRouve said:
Neymar wasn't selfish for Barcelona and has never been selfish for PSG. Also google isn't a reference in terms of truth, you will find people describing people wrongly all over internet.
Click to expand...

I think when there are as many articles and videos as there are, you should perhaps be willing to concede there is substance to the claim.

You're opinion MIGHT be accurate but there is very good reason why others think different. You've been incapable of this in another thread too, understanding that people can view things differently to you.

I can appreciate Neymar has demonstrated in recent years, particularly since things have quietened down over his contract issues, that he can be a team player.

There are enough instances in his career for people to think he has been a selfish player. Even at Barca and particularly early on at PSG. He's matured in his game, as far as I'm concerned and it's taken him up a level.

I remember being linked with him years ago and not wanting him because I though he was always going to be an arrogant and selfish player. Maybe my view was OTT but I had seen something to believe it was accurate.
 
Gio said:
His problem is that in arguably the two biggest games of his career - the World Cup quarter-final against Belgium in 2018 and the Champions League Final in August - he has hung on to the ball too long and tried to do too much by himself. As often the perceptions of players are defined by these small samples of big games, I can see why he gets the 'selfish' tag, even though the vast majority of the time he's a completely unselfish player who repeatedly serves up opportunities for his teammates.
Click to expand...

I think that you are correct, but it's baffling to see people call him selfish when the most staggering thing is how unselfish he is compared to other attacking superstars. He will often try to force assists instead of taking the chance himself which is questionable in terms of decision making but the opposite of selfishness.
 
bsCallout said:
I think when there are as many articles and videos as there are, you should perhaps be willing to concede there is substance to the claim.

You're opinion MIGHT be accurate but there is very good reason why others think different. You've been incapable of this in another thread too, understanding that people can view things differently to you.

I can appreciate Neymar has demonstrated in recent years, particularly since things have quietened down over his contract issues, that he can be a team player.

There are enough instances in his career for people to think he has been a selfish player. Even at Barca and particularly early on at PSG. He's matured in his game, as far as I'm concerned and it's taken him up a level.

I remember being linked with him years ago and not wanting him because I though he was always going to be an arrogant and selfish player. Maybe my view was OTT but I had seen something to believe it was accurate.
Click to expand...

No Neymar has never been selfish for PSG, the fact that you even try to make that point is baffling. Neymar has never been selfish for Barcelona or PSG, it has never been part of his game for either clubs. And if we are talking about PSG in particular, from day one he has continuously tried to force feed Mbappé and Di Maria. The player that you are describing has never existed in Europe outside of few outlier games. The thing that Neymar likes the most is to be a playmaker and make his teammates shine, the one flaw that he has is that he will favor his mates on the field which is questionable but has only been an issue with Cavani who is the only attacking player he didn't get along with.
 
JPRouve said:
No Neymar has never been selfish for PSG, the fact that you even try to make that point is baffling. Neymar has never been selfish for Barcelona or PSG, it has never been part of his game for either clubs. And if we are talking about PSG in particular, from day one he has continuously tried to force feed Mbappé and Di Maria. The player that you are describing has never existed in Europe outside of few outlier games. The thing that Neymar likes the most is to be a playmaker and make his teammates shine, the one flaw that he has is that he will favor his mates on the field which is questionable but has only been an issue with Cavani who is the only attacking player he didn't get along with.
Click to expand...

Well, like I said initially. It's complete pointless explaining it to you, as I expected it would be because you can never 'understand' another persons opinion when it differs from yours.

Go watch his earlier games and see if you see something you clearly don't want to see.
 
bsCallout said:
Well, like I said initially. It's complete pointless explaining it to you, as I expected it would be because you can never 'understand' another persons opinion when it differs from yours.

Go watch his earlier games and see if you see something you clearly don't want to see.
Click to expand...

It's funny that you question my character when from the beginning you refused to explain your claim that one of the most prolific assists makers in Europe was selfish. And I can understand it, if that other person actually tries to explain their opinion sensibly. You on the other end just went with "people say it on the internet" and "watch his games".
 
He's my least favorite athlete in sport. So, I'd say he's blown it. Players like Ronaldo, Messi etc...usually have the respect of most neutrals. Most neutrals cannot stand Neymar. His behaviour hurts the game.
 
Gio said:
His problem is that in arguably the two biggest games of his career - the World Cup quarter-final against Belgium in 2018 and the Champions League Final in August - he has hung on to the ball too long and tried to do too much by himself. As often the perceptions of players are defined by these small samples of big games, I can see why he gets the 'selfish' tag, even though the vast majority of the time he's a completely unselfish player who repeatedly serves up opportunities for his teammates.
Click to expand...

That had never occurred to me but it’s a good point about how certain matches will colour the perception of a player.

As a striker, there’s probably no player I’d have rather played next to over the last 10 more than him (outside of Lionel). He’s supremely creative, and always has to be doubled up on because he’s such a goal threat, and he’s an incredible ball carrier on top of it. I wonder what the perception of his ability would be had he not played in the Messi Ronaldo era.
 
JPRouve said:
It's funny that you question my character when from the beginning you refused to explain your claim that one of the most prolific assists makers in Europe was selfish. And I can understand it, if that other person actually tries to explain their opinion sensibly. You on the other end just went with "people say it on the internet" and "watch his games".
Click to expand...

You've demonstrated your character on other topics. I know your game.

You only understand when someone else agrees with you.

What did you expect me to do, pull out a list of times a player has demonstrated their selfishness.

My experience of watching a player has given me an opinion that differs to yours. Neymar has had a long career playing for some of the best teams, early on in that career, in mine and many others opinions, he was selfish in his play and also in key moments as another poster informed you. It lead me to not want him at United 4/5 years ago, you can question it all you like but that is the opinion I formed based on my experience watching him.

I accept your difference of opinion. You have a problem accepting that someone can view something different to you.
 
bsCallout said:
Well, like I said initially. It's complete pointless explaining it to you, as I expected it would be because you can never 'understand' another persons opinion when it differs from yours.

Go watch his earlier games and see if you see something you clearly don't want to see.
Click to expand...

That's nonsense. He has a different opinion to yours and he defends it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. You're confusing "respecting another person's opinion" with "not challenging another person's opinion". He's not attacking you, he's simply arguing his point.
 
Zehner said:
That's nonsense. He has a different opinion to yours and he defends it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. You're confusing "respecting another person's opinion" with "not challenging another person's opinion". He's not attacking you, he's simply arguing his point.
Click to expand...

When you 'challenge' someone by making out their opinion is wrong because your comment is fact, then you're not being open to debate.

I even started my initial post with 'To me'.

I'm not right, but there are ways to challenge an opinion. Usually it goes something like. 'I don't agree because X, what makes you think X'. Not, 'He's never been X, how can anyone think X'. Don't make statements as 'fact' when expressing an opinion.
 
bsCallout said:
You've demonstrated your character on other topics. I know your game.

You only understand when someone else agrees with you.

What did you expect me to do, pull out a list of times a player has demonstrated their selfishness.

My experience of watching a player has given me an opinion that differs to yours. Neymar has had a long career playing for some of the best teams, early on in that career, in mine and many others opinions, he was selfish in his play and also in key moments as another poster informed you. It lead me to not want him at United 4/5 years ago, you can question it all you like but that is the opinion I formed based on my experience watching him.

I accept your difference of opinion. You have a problem accepting that someone can view something different to you.
Click to expand...

So to make it clear, your experience of watching Neymar led you to determine that he was a selfish player and that happened 4/5 years ago? So your opinion was built around 2015-2017, when Neymar finished the seasons respectively as the 3rd best assist maker and then best assist maker in La Liga.

Look I don't mind your opinion if you can support it but you haven't supported it outside of making it clear that you want me to know that you have watched him and I haven't. But that's okay, I'm clearly the one in the wrong here.
 
bsCallout said:
When you 'challenge' someone by making out their opinion is wrong because your comment is fact, then you're not being open to debate.

I even started my initial post with 'To me'.

I'm not right, but there are ways to challenge an opinion. Usually it goes something like. 'I don't agree because X, what makes you think X'. Not, 'He's never been X, how can anyone think X'. Don't make statements as 'fact' when expressing an opinion.
Click to expand...

I think you both have decent points. imo Neymar hasn’t been selfish for a long time, but I do agree that in his early Barcelona days he did have a bit of a selfish streak. Not just in terms of his decision making in front of goal, but also that he sometimes (Not often) chose to be flamboyant on the ball to a point of hindrance. I think once he adapted to Barcelona though after a season or two he managed to largely stamp it out of his game and became a much more rounded player.
 
JPRouve said:
So to make it clear, your experience of watching Neymar led you to determine that he was a selfish player and that happened 4/5 years ago? So your opinion was built around 2015-2017, when Neymar finished the seasons respectively as the 3rd best assist maker and then best assist maker in La Liga.

Look I don't mind your opinion if you can support it but you haven't supported it outside of making it clear that you want me to know that you have watched him and I haven't. But that's okay, I'm clearly the one in the wrong here.
Click to expand...

You can't be wrong, it's an opinion. Why do you think these things are facts? I guess that explains the reliance on stats but we know stats can show anything.

Yes my opinion was formed that he was selfish about 4/5 years, probably built on watching him prior to and during the world cup.

I've stated that he seems to have matured a lot, judging by my limited experience watching him at PSG and he's become a better player in my opinion.

I'm not sure what is so bizarre to you that you can't understand that plenty of people had the experience of Neymar being a selfish player when he was younger?
 
Cascarino said:
I think you both have decent points. imo Neymar hasn’t been selfish for a long time, but I do agree that in his early Barcelona days he did have a bit of a selfish streak. Not just in terms of his decision making in front of goal, but also that he sometimes (Not often) chose to be flamboyant on the ball to a point of hindrance. I think once he adapted to Barcelona though after a season or two he managed to largely stamp it out of his game and became a much more rounded player.
Click to expand...

For me that's key, you can't say that someone is selfish based on occurrences that you admit weren't regular otherwise every single player is selfish and unselfish at the same time. Neymar isn't selfish simply because it's not part of his game on a week to week basis, it doesn't mean that you won't find examples of selfishness but those examples aren't characteristic.

And there isn't actually that many top players that are selfish outside of pure strikers, so the frequency the term is used is always a bit strange.
 
Cascarino said:
I think you both have decent points. imo Neymar hasn’t been selfish for a long time, but I do agree that in his early Barcelona days he did have a bit of a selfish streak. Not just in terms of his decision making in front of goal, but also that he sometimes (Not often) chose to be flamboyant on the ball to a point of hindrance. I think once he adapted to Barcelona though after a season or two he managed to largely stamp it out of his game and became a much more rounded player.
Click to expand...

Yes, that expresses my own opinion fairly accurately too.
 
bsCallout said:
You can't be wrong, it's an opinion. Why do you think these things are facts? I guess that explains the reliance on stats but we know stats can show anything.

Yes my opinion was formed that he was selfish about 4/5 years, probably built on watching him prior to and during the world cup.

I've stated that he seems to have matured a lot, judging by my limited experience watching him at PSG and he's become a better player in my opinion.

I'm not sure what is so bizarre to you that you can't understand that plenty of people had the experience of Neymar being a selfish player when he was younger?
Click to expand...

In that case I get it, the World Cups in particular were a poor demonstration of what Neymar is. Brazil have had the bad tendency to use a "give it to Neymar" tactic which was counterproductive for the team and probably created a false idea on what Neymar do on a week to week basis. A similar thing happened with Benzema and France between 2010-2015.
 
JPRouve said:
In that case I get it, the World Cups in particular were a poor demonstration of what Neymar is. Brazil have had the bad tendency to use a "give it to Neymar" tactic which was counterproductive for the team and probably created a false idea on what Neymar do on a week to week basis. A similar thing happened with Benzema and France between 2010-2015.
Click to expand...

I feel that responsibility he had for Brazil fed into his early club form and he felt a responsibility to 'do it all'. Barca probably changed this whilst he was with them. And the glimpses I've seen of him in recent years shows me a different player to the one I watched more regularly in that period of his career.

This is probably also because he wasn't in as many CL games to witness due to injuries or w/e it was.
 
bsCallout said:
I feel that responsibility he had for Brazil fed into his early club form and he felt a responsibility to 'do it all'. Barca probably changed this whilst he was with them. And the glimpses I've seen of him in recent years shows me a different player to the one I watched more regularly in that period of his career.

This is probably also because he wasn't in as many CL games to witness due to injuries or w/e it was.
Click to expand...

Neymar hasn't really change since 2014, basically after his first season at Barcelona, he wasn't particularly selfish before but he wasn't a complete attacker either with deficiencies in terms of vision and decision making. After that first season, he became more of a playmaker and has been that type of player for 6 years now. The one thing that Barcelona really changed in him has been his defensive contribution where more often than not he does his defensive job normally.
 
JPRouve said:
Neymar hasn't really change since 2014, basically after his first season at Barcelona, he wasn't particularly selfish before but he wasn't a complete attacker either with deficiencies in terms of vision and decision making. After that first season, he became more of a playmaker and has been that type of player for 6 years now. The one thing that Barcelona really changed in him has been his defensive contribution where more often than not he does his defensive job normally.
Click to expand...

Don't know about that. Neymar plays a more dominant role compared to his Barca days. Especially when he's not having his best day, he attempts lots of high through balls. At times it seems a little bit as if he's trying to play the same role for PSG Messi plays/played for Barcelona. For example his match against Dortmund last season when he had just overcome an injury. At Barca, he himself had less freedom and received the ball on the wings more often. He also made more runs behind the defense compared to now where he's rather the one playing those passes.

However, in general I think he has improved since then. He flies under the radar due to the league he's playing in but some of his performances there were truly amazing.
 
Zehner said:
Don't know about that. Neymar plays a more dominant role compared to his Barca days. Especially when he's not having his best day, he attempts lots of high through balls. At times it seems a little bit as if he's trying to play the same role for PSG Messi plays/played for Barcelona. For example his match against Dortmund last season when he had just overcome an injury. At Barca, he himself had less freedom and received the ball on the wings more often. He also made more runs behind the defense compared to now where he's rather the one playing those passes.

However, in general I think he has improved since then. He flies under the radar due to the league he's playing in but some of his performances there were truly amazing.
Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about his specific role but his individual evolution as a footballer, it's at Barcelona that he learned the game that he currently plays. As for his role it was always going to change when playing for different managers and without Messi on the other wing, he was going to be more "dominant" outside of Barcelona because he is the best playmaker in his current team and will be given more responsibilities which wasn't the case at Barcelona where he was the secondary playmaker, you could even argue that he was the third or fourth playmaker behind the likes of Iniesta and Xavi until 2015.

By the way, I feel that we already argued about the difference between the role a player may have in a team and the overall characteristics of that player regardless of his environment. :)
 
JPRouve said:
For me that's key, you can't say that someone is selfish based on occurrences that you admit weren't regular otherwise every single player is selfish and unselfish at the same time. Neymar isn't selfish simply because it's not part of his game on a week to week basis, it doesn't mean that you won't find examples of selfishness but those examples aren't characteristic.

And there isn't actually that many top players that are selfish outside of pure strikers, so the frequency the term is used is always a bit strange.
Click to expand...

Yeah it wasn’t particularly often, I think it was more having moved to Barcelona from a team where he was the undisputed main man and had freedom to dribble, to a more structured set up. Barcelona had moved away from Pepball and the team was more individualistic so he did have more license than he would have had he joined a few seasons earlier. He looked a little awkward sometimes (although clearly supremely talented) but I think more often than not it could be questionable decision making as you said opposed to outright selfishness., so he’d snatch a shot or go down a dead end. He improved immensely after his first season (iirc) and his first season was very promising as it was.

Yeah I’d agree with that, and if a top player has perceived selfish traits (shooting constantly, holding on to the ball) a lot of the time it’ll be tactical instructions etc and can benefit the team.
 
Genius, completely dominated the game.
 
JPRouve said:
Neymar wasn't selfish for Barcelona and has never been selfish for PSG. Also google isn't a reference in terms of truth, you will find people describing people wrongly all over internet.
Click to expand...
To be fair, he has been described as selfish for at least once for PSG, when he literally stole the ball from Cavani for penalty kick, and causing a scene.
 
Best player in the world atm. And by some distance. Despite not being liked it’s the real truth. Can play in any team in any league.
 
RedRonaldo said:
To be fair, he has been described as selfish for at least once for PSG, when he literally stole the ball from Cavani for penalty kick, and causing a scene.
Click to expand...

He didn't stole the penalty, Cavani took it. Also I suspect that you are actually thinking about an other incident where Cavani tried to take the ball from Alves for a free kick.
 
JPRouve said:
He didn't stole the penalty, Cavani took it. Also I suspect that you are actually thinking about an other incident where Cavani tried to take the ball from Alves for a free kick.
Click to expand...


Are you suffering from memory loss?

It did happened, everyone in this planet knows it. Don't be silly to deny it.
 
JPRouve said:
It didn't, I shared the video with you. Neymar and Cavani argued but Cavani took the penalty and missed it, the next day Neymar apologized to the team and Cavani.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...y-dispute-speculation-was-greatly-exaggerated
Click to expand...

The next day Neymar also becomes permanent penalty kicker of the team, Cavani has no chance to reclaim back his spot ever since the dispute between the 2 players, as there could only be one winner.
Truth is Neymar did argued with Cavani for the penalty kick, and he did grab the ball which is stolen from Cavani afterwards for free kicks.
Its a big joke at that time, everyone were talking about the incident, on how ridiculous the situation and players acting. But Cavani, being the assigned penalty kicker at that time, have actually done no wrong. Its rather Neymar who is causing the whole scene (arguing for the penalty and grab the stolen ball for free kick).
 
RedRonaldo said:
The next day Neymar also becomes permanent penalty kicker of the team, Cavani has no chance to reclaim back his spot ever since the dispute between the 2 players, as there could only be one winner.
Truth is Neymar did argued with Cavani for the penalty kick, and he did grab the ball which is stolen from Cavani afterwards for free kicks.
Its a big joke at that time, everyone were talking both the incident, on how ridiculous both players were. But Cavani, being the assigned penalty kicker at that time, have actually done no wrong. Its rather Neymar who is causing the whole scene.
Click to expand...

Cavani wasn't the assigned penalty taker, they didn't had one and it was up to the player to decide. As for the free kick it's Alves that had the ball and Cavani that tried to take it. The reality is that neither players acted properly.
 


Legit one of the most talented players I’ve ever seen. Everything just comes to him so effortlessly
 
The number of times he attempted and failed the rainbow was an indication that he was never really the successor in the first place. Right now there isn't one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.