The natural successor: Has Neymar blown it?

[ti vu]

Yes, it's the rolling that's the most enraging and he's been rightfully mocked across the world for it since the world cup. It seems he has cut it out a bit, but Neymar is tremendously misrepresented out there, he's a good guy and has shown great leadership this season. He's a good teammate to have, I don't know anybody that's ever complained about his character that's actually played with him. But leave it to the personality experts we have here to tell you all about him as a human being because of what they see on the field for 90m in a competitive sport.

Issue with him is his Brazillian lifestyle. He's that talented to perform at high standard with that lifestyle. However, it can cause distraction. Require some serious man management from the head coach to keep the team focus when carrying all his baggage. The margin of error at highest level nowadays is thin with much more stake in play, so the the professional profile of Ronaldo, Messi is preferred. When comparing to that profile, of course Neymart profile is looked in a bad light.

Some people may prefer super teams vs super teams. I prefer the spread of talents, so even though I am not the fan of Neymar character; I like the Brazillian adventurous way of thinking which helps that cause.

 

[Sayros]

Issue with him is his Brazillian lifestyle. He's that talented to perform at high standard with that lifestyle. However, it can cause distraction. Require some serious man management from the head coach to keep the team focus when carrying all his baggage. The margin of error at highest level nowadays is thin with much more stake in play, so the the professional profile of Ronaldo, Messi is preferred. When comparing to that profile, of course Neymart profile is looked in a bad light.

Some people may prefer super teams vs super teams. I prefer the spread of talents, so even though I am not the fan of Neymar character; I like the Brazillian adventurous way of thinking which helps that cause.

He does have a lavish lifestyle, but like you I enjoy the Brazilian way of thinking, even though it has burned out some of their best talents in the past, whether we go back to the days of Garrincha, or R9/10. When you compare him to those guys, Neymar looks much better, but compared to a machine like CR7 that eats, breathes, and sleeps football to a draconian measure, then not many people are going to look great. I think it's a credit to Neymar that he's still a dominant player now that he's back to healthy. R9 was always great, even post injury because he was just that incredible, but a guy like R10 faded hard after 2008 (and really started to show as early as post-WC 2006).

 

[Oly Francis]

He does have a lavish lifestyle, but like you I enjoy the Brazilian way of thinking, even though it has burned out some of their best talents in the past, whether we go back to the days of Garrincha, or R9/10. When you compare him to those guys, Neymar looks much better, but compared to a machine like CR7 that eats, breathes, and sleeps football to a draconian measure, then not many people are going to look great. I think it's a credit to Neymar that he's still a dominant player now that he's back to healthy. R9 was always great, even post injury because he was just that incredible, but a guy like R10 faded hard after 2008 (and really started to show as early as post-WC 2006).

R9 started to decline at the age of 27-28 or so, it's still very early, it's actually around the same age Ronnie did.

 

[Sayros]

R9 started to decline at the age of 27-28 or so, it's still very early, it's actually around the same age Ronnie did.

R9 was missing for the better part of two years though before then, and R10's peak was much shorter.

 

[Revan]

To be fair R9 got so much injured, that it is hard to blame him for declining that early. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't get injured, probably wouldn't have started declining until early thirties, and would have scored twice as many career goals.

Ronaldinho on the other hand seemed to just not have cared too much about football, and just decided to start declining. I guess it is tough to keep the level of professionalism after some time.

 

[Oly Francis]

To be fair R9 got so much injured, that it is hard to blame him for declining that early. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't get injured, probably wouldn't have started declining until early thirties, and would have scored twice as many career goals.

Ronaldinho on the other hand seemed to just not have cared too much about football, and just decided to start declining. I guess it is tough to keep the level of professionalism after some time.

Yeah, even though both players said R9 was the heaviest partygoer of the bunch.

 

[Adam-Utd]

To be fair R9 got so much injured, that it is hard to blame him for declining that early. Who knows what would have happened if he didn't get injured, probably wouldn't have started declining until early thirties, and would have scored twice as many career goals.

Ronaldinho on the other hand seemed to just not have cared too much about football, and just decided to start declining. I guess it is tough to keep the level of professionalism after some time.

Ronaldinho partied all night and went to training still drunk. He got by on his natural talent for a long time, but eventually his body started slowing down a bit.

Guardiola got rid of him because of his party lifestyle not his talent.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

Neymar has recovered pretty well from the metatarsal injuries.

I think he is a bit less explosive now than he was prior to the injuries, but he looks to have put the injury past him(I thought he rushed back too soon for the 2018 WC).

 

[Sayros]

R9 was so much more talented than almost anybody out there, he was one of the biggest party animals, even considering Ronaldinho in his heyday, and he still managed to have a huge impact throughout his career, on top of devastating knee injuries as a player who relied heavily on pace in his prime. It's just incredible when you think about it because it definitely caught up to Ronaldinho in a way he never recovered from or was ever as impactful, but R9 was still one of the best forwards in the world regardless.

 

[Oly Francis]

He does have a lavish lifestyle, but like you I enjoy the Brazilian way of thinking, even though it has burned out some of their best talents in the past, whether we go back to the days of Garrincha, or R9/10. When you compare him to those guys, Neymar looks much better, but compared to a machine like CR7 that eats, breathes, and sleeps football to a draconian measure, then not many people are going to look great. I think it's a credit to Neymar that he's still a dominant player now that he's back to healthy. R9 was always great, even post injury because he was just that incredible, but a guy like R10 faded hard after 2008 (and really started to show as early as post-WC 2006).

i think that's a fair assessment. Neymar came back in very good shape from the Corona break despite the fact that he was in a villa in brazil with friends, I think it speaks volume about his spirit. I can't even imagine what would have happened with R9/10, they'd have gained 20 pounds and caught 12 STDs.

 

[paraguayo]

R9 was so much more talented than almost anybody out there, he was one of the biggest party animals, even considering Ronaldinho in his heyday, and he still managed to have a huge impact throughout his career, on top of devastating knee injuries as a player who relied heavily on pace in his prime. It's just incredible when you think about it because it definitely caught up to Ronaldinho in a way he never recovered from or was ever as impactful, but R9 was still one of the best forwards in the world regardless.

Roberto Carlos too. His generation says he’s the one who drank the most boose

 

[DarkLord]

When was the last time you see a Brazilian still "ageing" well in his late 20s and 30s? I think with their culture and lifestyle, it was always going to be hard to keep up. Messi and Ronaldo are outliers. Neymar has done very well compared to the other Brazilian legends, only thing missing from his career is a World Cup which is going to be hard as international football is extremely competitive now.

 

[giorno]

Neymar is a party animal but he's very driven. Unlike Ronaldinho he cares about being the best in the world and leaving his mark in football history and it shows

Then again, Ronaldinho did all that by age 26, so...

 

[JPRouve]

When was the last time you see a Brazilian still "ageing" well in his late 20s and 30s? I think with their culture and lifestyle, it was always going to be hard to keep up. Messi and Ronaldo are outliers. Neymar has done very well compared to the other Brazilian legends, only thing missing from his career is a World Cup which is going to be hard as international football is extremely competitive now.

Thiago Silva, Thiago Motta, Marcelo and Dani Alves are recent examples among big names. One thing to keep in mind is that brazilian players tend to start professional football early, their careers rarely start in Europe.

 

[Fortitude]

Far too much cherry picking selectivity bias going on here: Ronaldinho is an outlier because he seemingly stopped caring about football in and of itself just after his calamity at '06 where he was supposed to become something he didn't manage and had a poor World Cup.

Ronaldo and Neymar, just like Romario before them, care(d) greatly about their performance and the pursuit of glory/excellence, so much so in Romario's case that despite his insane party lifestyle, he kept going as a pro until he'd achieved the numbers he wanted. Ronaldo's issues with his knees are going to cause anyone to be depressive and his weight issues and general outlook more centres on that than being a party animal as he was a model trainer until his body failed him - the correlation between ailing knees and the weight gain is too obvious to just be swept under the rug.

Neymar's pursuit of greatness is stronger than his love of partying, too, as far as I can see. I made this thread in 2017, and I thoroughly believe Neymar went to PSG to get his name etched in stone for achieving something others deemed impossible, and if he sees that through on Sunday and has a game for the ages, he'll have done what he set out to do; as far as I've read, he's a great trainer? He fecks off to Brazil a few times a year, but outside of that, he's hardly the second coming of George Best or Diego Maradona, is he?

Brazilians and longevity is really overblown because for every abrupt ending, you've players who were stellar well into their mid 30's: Cafu, Rivaldo, Roberto Carlos, Ze Roberto, Romario. Apart from Ronaldinho (let's forget Adriano as his circumstances are something else entirely), it's usually injuries that curtail them over lifestyle - they fade no different to most other pros, by age at least.

Neymar seems to be a bit of an enigma and the image and persona he's projected certainly seems to be something people buy into without knowing much about him or what his driving forces are. I personally reckon he wants the recognition and is a very driven player underneath the supposed indifference and nonchalance he projects. If he does win the CL with PSG, his next move will be very interesting. Seems the story is written for him to go back to Spain and take over the mantle of best player in the world, as both Messi and Ronaldo's time at the top isn't far from ending as Father Time claims them.

 

[Ecstatic]

When was the last time you see a Brazilian still "ageing" well in his late 20s and 30s? I think with their culture and lifestyle, it was always going to be hard to keep up. Messi and Ronaldo are outliers. Neymar has done very well compared to the other Brazilian legends, only thing missing from his career is a World Cup which is going to be hard as international football is extremely competitive now.

Thiago Silva, Dani Alves etc.

 

[Ecstatic]

Neymar has recovered pretty well from the metatarsal injuries.

I think he is a bit less explosive now than he was prior to the injuries, but he looks to have put the injury past him(I thought he rushed back too soon for the 2018 WC).

Yeah.

Less explosive and rapid. Following his disappointing 2018 WC, he wanted to reinvent himself and play more centrally.

It's like Zlatan who became false 9 at the end of his career.

 

[Ecstatic]

The comparison Neymar/Ronaldinho is very interesting because they both played for PSG, Barcelona and Brazil as wingers/playmaker.

I prefer Neymar because he has a stronger winning mentality and killer instinct , making him more consistent and professional.

Ronaldinho:

- "Always smiling", more touching etc.
- Barcelona: he was the star number 1 when he joined them, greatly contributing to their revival
- Brazil: he was a relatively secondary player, Ronaldo/Rivaldo having a greater impact. He won the 2002 WC but the team was complete.
- Ballon d'or: he won it before the era of Messi/Cristiano Ronaldo

These are the reasons why Ronaldinho is largely preferred to Neymar by most fans but - as far as i am concerned - I go for Neymar without hesitation.

On the other hand, I couldn't choose between Thierry Henry and Mbappe: different skill set, the 2 greatest French strikers.

 

[giorno]

Genuine question but was Henry ever better than Mbappé is right now?

 

[jdotman]

The comparison Neymar/Ronaldinho is very interesting because they both played for PSG, Barcelona and Brazil as wingers/playmaker.

I prefer Neymar because he has a stronger winning mentality and killer instinct , making him more consistent and professional.

Ronaldinho:

- "Always smiling", more touching etc.
- Barcelona: he was the star number 1 when he joined them, greatly contributing to their revival
- Brazil: he was a relatively secondary player, Ronaldo/Rivaldo having a greater impact. He won the 2002 WC but the team was complete.
- Ballon d'or: he won it before the era of Messi/Cristiano Ronaldo

These are the reasons why Ronaldinho is largely preferred to Neymar by most fans but - as far as i am concerned - I go for Neymar without hesitation.

On the other hand, I couldn't choose between Thierry Henry and Mbappe: different skill set, the 2 greatest French strikers.

I think the main reason people still prefer Ronnie is because his peak was higher than Neymars. Neymar is showing to have better longevity though, and depending on how well he performs in the next few years he could overtake Ronnie

 

[Pow]

Genuine question but was Henry ever better than Mbappé is right now?

Yes. For many seasons.
Henrys 04 season he was complete striker and creator.
Mbappe still has more to improve in his game.

 

[Ecstatic]

I think the main reason people still prefer Ronnie is because his peak was higher than Neymars. Neymar is showing to have better longevity though, and depending on how well he performs in the next few years he could overtake Ronnie

In terms of physical capabilities (speed, creativity etc.), I think the career peak of Neymar was probably 2nd season at Barcelona or 6 first months at PSG.

The video below is maybe the career peak of Ronaldinho:

 

[Ecstatic]

Genuine question but was Henry ever better than Mbappé is right now?

Yes. For many seasons.
Henrys 04 season he was complete striker and creator.
Mbappe still has more to improve in his game.

If preserved from injuries, I believe Mbappe will have a greater career but in terms of technical skills Henry was more exciting.

Two very powerful strikers but in a different way.

 

[Pow]

If preserved from injuries, I believe Mbappe will have a greater career but in terms of technical skills Henry was more exciting.

Two very powerful strikers but in a different way.

Career wise by next summer at the age of 22 he could well have a cl and euro under his belt having won all the major trophies. Injuries permitting the kids gonna keep winning trophies. He will be a star. But lets not forget how complete a footballer henry was in his prime.

 

[harms]

Ronaldo's issues with his knees are going to cause anyone to be depressive and his weight issues and general outlook more centres on that than being a party animal as he was a model trainer until his body failed him

I’m not sure that it’s true. Even at Barca he had been horrendously unprofessional – that was before his knees gave up. He had a spell in December where he went 5 games without scoring (seems ridiculous that he had still managed to score 34 in 37) – but in that time (a little over a month) he flew to Brazil and back 9 times. Then another 4 games without scoring in February, when he decided to visit the carnival.

Bobby Robson’s assistant, some random Portuguese chap named Jose, even openly criticized him in the press for his attitude. I won’t even talk about the fact that he had cost them the title because he decided to miss last 3 games of the season, and they’ve lost to Hercules; as this was not because of his partying but because of the whole contract negotiations/Inter transfer stuff.

From the very first night at Inter he went clubbing and only went home at 5-6 a.m. before a morning training. He had leveraged Luigi Simoni into allowing him to drink cola during and after training... except that he poured beer into cola cans. And that was before his big injuries and before he had met Vieri.

So yeah, he was never big on training, although his incredible physique not only allowed him to dominate on the pitch, but also to quickly recover after those crazy nights (Vieri had jealousy noted that while he was dying during training after their night out, Ronaldo looked like he had slept the whole night in his bed).

The only period of time when he was more or less disciplined was his stint in PSV, because his mom still lived with him. The only leeway he got was when journalists tried to get a quote from him and he traded those for beer.

 

[Fortitude]

I’m not sure that it’s true. Even at Barca he had been horrendously unprofessional – that was before his knees gave up. He had a spell in December where he went 5 games without scoring (seems ridiculous that he had still managed to score 34 in 37) – but in that time (a little over a month) he flew to Brazil and back 9 times. Then another 4 games without scoring in February, when he decided to visit the carnival.

Bobby Robson’s assistant, some random Portuguese chap named Jose, even openly criticized him in the press for his attitude. I won’t even talk about the fact that he had cost them the title because he decided to miss last 3 games of the season, and they’ve lost to Hercules; as this was not because of his partying but because of the whole contract negotiations/Inter transfer stuff.

From the very first night at Inter he went clubbing and only went home at 5-6 a.m. before a morning training. He had leveraged Luigi Simoni into allowing him to drink cola during and after training... except that he poured beer into cola cans. And that was before his big injuries and before he had met Vieri.

So yeah, he was never big on training, although his incredible physique not only allowed him to dominate on the pitch, but also to quickly recover after those crazy nights (Vieri had jealousy noted that while he was dying during training after their night out, Ronaldo looked like he had slept the whole night in his bed).

The only period of time when he was more or less disciplined was his stint in PSV, because his mom still lived with him. The only leeway he got was when journalists tried to get a quote from him and he traded those for beer.

I just refresh and this is here!

I guess, for me, doing the sessions and coming out the other side with nobody who knows better thinking: "this guy is clearly not with it; something must be going on with his lifestyle outside of training." I don't know whether you consider that blagging it, but for me, the bottom line is coming in acing what it is you're there for and then leaving again. I guess I'm also of the view that whilst you're in tip-top shape, not overweight and not paying the price for what you do, it's not necessarily fine, but is still a passing grade. I think it goes without saying that 'model professional,' in that context, was meant to refer to those who do have marks against their name for their output in training and where it looks like they're slacking off - Romario being quite notorious for this - rather than to say this Ronaldo is a model trainer/athlete/individual in the realm of C.Ronaldo, Cafu, Zanetti, Giggs or Roy Keane (once he took his career seriously) etc.

Once the balance was gone - I think linked to his mental state due to the injuries - his weight rose and he was no longer offsetting his extra curriculars with training and the discipline he once had.

Having said the above, I read a revelation on here the other day saying Ronaldo was a smoker throughout his career? Not something I was aware of, and if that is the case, I take back everything I've said!

 

[Ecstatic]

Career wise by next summer at the age of 22 he could well have a cl and euro under his belt having won all the major trophies. Injuries permitting the kids gonna keep winning trophies. He will be a star. But lets not forget how complete a footballer henry was in his prime.

Don't worry about that

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-oasis-draft-r1-moby-vs-ecstatic.450757/#post-24924253

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pat-vs-downcast-nt-peak-draft.428171/#post-20726948

 

[harms]

I guess, for me, doing the sessions and coming out the other side with nobody who knows better thinking: "this guy is clearly not with it; something must be going on with his lifestyle outside of training." I don't know whether you consider that blagging it, but for me, the bottom line is coming in acing what it is you're there for and then leaving again. I guess I'm also of the view that whilst you're in tip-top shape, not overweight and not paying the price for what you do, it's not necessarily fine, but is still a passing grade. I think it goes without saying that 'model professional,' in that context, was meant to refer to those who do have marks against their name for their output in training and where it looks like they're slacking off

Well, he had actually missed a lot of trainings at Barca, had constant issues with Robson and Mourinho there. Brazil's physio had openly criticised his physical form, saying that a 50m player should be in a better shape and his training at Barca isn't good enough (Robson took a lot of offense in that, but the criticism was mostly focused on Ronaldo). Robson and Mourinho talked a lot about how he doesn't work hard enough on and off the pitch (Mou had one of his first memorable press-conferences with his "a player can't sleep for 89 minutes because he had scored a fantastic goal).

So yeah, his way of life had seriously influenced his performances both in training and on the pitch even at that early stage. It wasn't as bad as it was at Real, when Ruud complained about dressing room smelling of alcohol, but it was already bad. He was just too likeable and too unplayable for us to focus on this stuff.

And yeah, I think he had smoked for pretty much entirety of his career.

 

[giorno]

Oh man, Ronaldo&Vieri

Incredible dedication to their craft

 

[Fortitude]

Well, he had actually missed a lot of trainings at Barca, had constant issues with Robson and Mourinho there. Brazil's physio had openly criticised his physical form, saying that a 50m player should be in a better shape and his training at Barca isn't good enough (Robson took a lot of offense in that, but the criticism was mostly focused on Ronaldo). Robson and Mourinho talked a lot about how he doesn't work hard enough on and off the pitch (Mou had one of his first memorable press-conferences with his "a player can't sleep for 89 minutes because he had scored a fantastic goal).

So yeah, his way of life had seriously influenced his performances both in training and on the pitch even at that early stage. It wasn't as bad as it was at Real, when Ruud complained about dressing room smelling of alcohol, but it was already bad. He was just too likeable and too unplayable for us to focus on this stuff.

And yeah, I think he had smoked for pretty much entirety of his career.

Interesting one. These are potential pre-cursors to what happened, but at some point, whatever it was he was doing as opposed to what he wasn't, made his weight balloon and never come back down to what his great years were.

The smoking is depressing. If he was smoking the whole time, then I might as well delete him out of the posts.

 

[JPRouve]

Oh man, Ronaldo&Vieri

Incredible dedication to their craft

And to think that Lavezzi had a bad rep.

 

[Fortitude]

Oh man, Ronaldo&Vieri

Incredible dedication to their craft

My favourite interview ever given by a footballer came from Vieri when he was asked about his lifestyle and whether he was leaving yet another club - in English - and he pretended not to understand; the interviewer pointed out he lived in Australia for X amount of years and to stop playing dumb, and Vieri gives him a look, a shrug and carries on his 'no speaka Anglais' routine.

 

[giorno]

Yeah, Vieri hated the media with a passion. He famously had a feud with a very prominent journalist and threatened to "break his bones" several times. There's the time he called Zaccheroni(inter manager at the time) "fallito" because he didn't play him

Anyways, him and Ronaldo are myth, but still not a patch on the "king of milan", Nicola Berti

Back to ronaldo, the weight issues were down to a thyroid problem iirc

 

[Sayros]

My favourite interview ever given by a footballer came from Vieri when he was asked about his lifestyle and whether he was leaving yet another club - in English - and he pretended not to understand; the interviewer pointed out he lived in Australia for X amount of years and to stop playing dumb, and Vieri gives him a look, a shrug and carries on his 'no speaka Anglais' routine.

Aw man, I tried to find a clip of that but couldn't find it on youtube, really wish I could have seen that!

 

[Cassidy]

What? I've only ever seen Sterling lauded. Ozil's criticized, not hated. Pogba certainly gets both barrels. Lingard would be a good shout too, most of the hatred comes from his own fans though.

Sterling was hated when he left Liverpool. Only recently since he spoke out about his criticism has the tide turned

 

[Fortitude]

Aw man, I tried to find a clip of that but couldn't find it on youtube, really wish I could have seen that!

Must be 20+ years since I saw that. Guess this thread brought back some memories as I remember a few interviews where he stood there mute or just staring the interviewer down! Haaland has nothing on BoBo

 

[Snow]

When was the last time you see a Brazilian still "ageing" well in his late 20s and 30s? I think with their culture and lifestyle, it was always going to be hard to keep up. Messi and Ronaldo are outliers. Neymar has done very well compared to the other Brazilian legends, only thing missing from his career is a World Cup which is going to be hard as international football is extremely competitive now.

Fernandinho. Gilberto Silva. Many of them do like to party a bit too much instead of waiting until their short careers are over.

 

[Fortitude]

Yeah, Vieri hated the media with a passion. He famously had a feud with a very prominent journalist and threatened to "break his bones" several times. There's the time he called Zaccheroni(inter manager at the time) "fallito" because he didn't play him

Anyways, him and Ronaldo are myth, but still not a patch on the "king of milan", Nicola Berti

Back to ronaldo, the weight issues were down to a thyroid problem iirc

I have no idea about this guy. Sounds like he needs thread!

Do you buy into the thyroid talk? @harms filled in some blanks for me and combined with smoking and no longer being able to apply himself in the same way, it sounds like the perfect recipe for the state he was in well before time; not sure the thyroid plays a part under such a beating!

 

[jdotman]

In terms of physical capabilities (speed, creativity etc.), I think the career peak of Neymar was probably 2nd season at Barcelona or 6 first months at PSG.

The video below is maybe the career peak of Ronaldinho:

Someone told me quite recently that in that season Ronaldinho got injured in the second half of it for a significant amount of time and lost some of his athleticism because of it, kind of like what we have seen with Rashford since the restart. With that in mind his movement does look a bit limited in that video, but it was still a classic performance. Id say his absolute peak was the game vs Madrid where he scored the 2 goals

 

[Sayros]

Someone told me quite recently that in that season Ronaldinho got injured in the second half of it for a significant amount of time and lost some of his athleticism because of it, kind of like what we have seen with Rashford since the restart. With that in mind his movement does look a bit limited in that video, but it was still a classic performance. Id say his absolute peak was the game vs Madrid where he scored the 2 goals

Yeah, it's pretty hard to beat getting a standing ovation from Madridistas as a Barcelona player at the Bernabeu. It was a special performance, although it pales in comparison to what Messi has accomplished since then against Madrid.