The myth around Shay Given

x42bn6 said:
Why should Given be the one who holds responsibility for his back four? How about the midfield, for not giving them protection? The strikers, for not heading the balls away? Given, after all, isn't that tall. Given is not responsible for lack of execution of his back four. Given is not in any way superior in rank than any of his back four. Given has his own job to do - his job is not micro-management - it's goalkeeping. He cannot supervise while making saves. He cannot be held responsible for lack of execution of his back four at all because he has more important things to do - goalkeeping.
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Which is 10% of the game, usually, at most. The rest of the time he acts as a supervisor.

Either you're saying his only job is to make saves from shots and catch crosses or you're deliberately ignoring the fact he doesn't do the rest of his job well enough.

It's equivalent to a midfielder only having to pass the ball and not do any defending.

TheReligion said:
Well, this thread blew up in the OPs face a bit didn't it?
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Does saving a penalty make you world class?
 
Brwned said:
Conceded 45 goals in 36 games for City by my reckoning, still conceding over a goal a game despite being at a stronger club than Newcastle.

Throughout his Newcastle career he conceded goal after goal and made great save after great save, which I thought implied he's a great shot stopper but his organisation of the defence was poor. There was a reason that time after time good defenders failed to flourish at Newcastle. Players like Cacapa, Boumsong, Colocinni, Bramble were all talented players before they came and were established at big clubs before they came with the exception of Bramble who was one of the brightest young defenders in the country.
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Stopped reading there.

Awful back line. You put Buffon to command those wankers you'd get the same result.

To blame Given on defender making childish mistakes over and over again is..stupid.

Class keeper. Great reflexes, great game today as well.
 
Brwned said:
Not a strong unit in front of him.

Strong individual players though, strong enough to be conceding less than a goal a game no doubt.

It's Given's job to organise them.
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How many of those defenders had played together before the start of the season? It'll take time for them to get organised.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Stopped reading there.

Awful back line. You put Buffon to command those wankers you'd get the same result.

To blame Given on defender making childish mistakes over and over again is..stupid.

Class keeper. Great reflexes, great game today as well.
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Stick Buffon in there they'd have been in the Champions League a lot more often than they were with Given.
 
I've always been in the "Given is horribly over-rated and not much more than an exceptional shot-stopper" camp, but got bored of arguing it when everyone else seemed to disagree with me!
 
CptMarvel said:
How many of those defenders had played together before the start of the season? It'll take time for them to get organised.
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As said in the OP can only last as an excuse for so long, until next year when another couple of defenders come in for big money because mysteriously the back four still hasn't clicked and doesn't look it will.
 
Brwned, first of all, you really need to calm down with all your stats.

Secondly, I kind of agree, I dont rate him as anything world class, but certainly a very good keeper, but can think of 10+ who I prefer.
 
How does saving a penalty go against the idea that Given is a very good shot-stopper but little else.
 
Allforone said:
Great thread brwned...you never cease to amaze with your stupidity...and to think you have the nerve to claim others are clueless...ironic indeed....
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Clueless people can still call others clueless.

Scholesy for example, like everyone else, can still see that GusHiddink's a spaz.

When you think about making a point, think about it another couple of times, just to be really sure it makes sense.
 
Birmingham City keeper hails Shay Given - Sunday Mercury

right so on one hand we have a premiership manager happy to spend millions on buying him... a manager who has played with some of the best keepers in the world... also a fellow proffesional goalkeeper playing in the premiership (somebody you would imagine would know a thing or 2 about keeprs) saying he is world class

Birmingham keeper Maik Taylor has hailed his Manchester City counterpart Shay Given as one of the world's best and believes he has become even better since his move to Eastlands.

Northern Ireland number one Taylor has played with and against some of the best goalkeepers around, including Edwin van der Sar during their spell together at Fulham.

But he feels Given is currently at the peak of his career, as demonstrated during yesterday's goalless draw at St Andrew's.

Given pulled off a series of fine saves, most notably a second-half penalty stop from James McFadden, to earn his team a fortunate point.

Taylor said: "How good is Given? He was always top quality at Newcastle but, since he has gone to Manchester City, he has almost gone to another level.

"He really is one of the world's best, not just in the Premier League, and he never put a foot wrong against us.

"His kicking and distribution was unbelievable and everything is top drawer about Shay at the moment. He is really on song.

"But he has worked extremely hard to get to the level that he is at now and good luck to him.

"He broke our hearts but it was a fantastic save from the penalty. It was a decent penalty. He definitely earned them a point and we felt a bit deflated.

"Shay rarely makes a mistake. Keepers are judged on mistakes and reliability and he rarely makes them.

"But in addition to that he also comes up with a world-class save when needed as well. He is a very good presence for Man City and I can't praise him highly enough."

City boss Mark Hughes echoed Taylor's sentiments and said: "That is why I brought Shay to the club because I knew he would have that capacity when you need someone to produce something for you to keep you in the game.

"Shay has done that right throughout his career and he was exceptional again at Birmingham to earn us the point."
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on the other hand we have brwned... an arrogant kid who thinks he knows everything about football for no other reason that he pretends to watch every game ever played...

i wonder who is most likley to be talking shite.....
 
The only ones who rate Given as world class are either:

a. Irish;

or

b. People who don't fully understand the responsibilities and attributes a goalkeeper must possess to be well rounded. They see Given make loads of Hollywood saves, but are oblivious when his failure to organise his back line costs his side a goal, for instance.

Given's reflexes are phenomenal, but his aerial ability, command of his defence, and distribution are just above average at best.
Good keeper, but there's a reason he's been at Newcastle for the majority of his career. He's not top club calibre.
 
Scholesy said:
Brwned, first of all, you really need to calm down with all your stats.

Secondly, I kind of agree, I dont rate him as anything world class, but certainly a very good keeper, but can think of 10+ who I prefer.
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I advised this at one time to...hes obsessed with them im afriad....threads like this are the result....Mentioning Tim Howard in a similiar breath to Shay Given was the tip of the iceberg on this one though....comedy gold.

Hes good for a laugh though ill give him that..
 
Brwned said:
Clueless people can still call others clueless.

Scholesy for example, like everyone else, can still see that GusHiddink's a spaz.

When you think about making a point, think about it another couple of times, just to be really sure it makes sense.
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Indeed youve already proven said point beautifully.....cracking thread...has really topped off the day for me.....
 
Allforone said:
I advised this at one time to...hes obsessed with them im afriad....threads like this are the result....Mentioning Tim Howard in a similiar breath to Shay Given was the tip of the iceberg on this one though....comedy gold.

Hes good for a laugh though ill give him that..
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Yeah, was hilarious given three others mentioned him for whatever reason before me:

MrMarcello said:
Not sold on that sentiment. He's no better than Howard IMO. Certainly not better than Cech, VDS, Reina or Friedel. He's prone to howlers and is a great shot stopper.

While I believe this the timing of this thread is suspicious, ok, ridiculous, he is a quality keeper but not United class IMO.
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Raees said:
No better than Howard, stop being silly.
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Name Changed said:
He is better than Reina and Friedel, that is for sure.

And how many howlers has he actually conceded? Feck all. You'd find it very hard to find too many goals that were actually caused by a mistake from him. It would be a lot easier to find mistakes made by Cech and even VDS. Given is ten times the keeper of Tim Howard. To put them even close to each other is ridiculous, nevermind on the same level.
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And the only comparison I made was their ability to save penalties, which is very comparable.

Hilarious.

I know it's hard recognising the difference between my name and those three names though, they're just so alike.
 
Shay Given is a phenomenal shot-stopper, he may be the best in the league in that department. I've always had issues with other aspects of his game.

He's not good with crosses, to the point that he doesn't really go for them at all, just stays on his line. I like my GKs to command their area a lot more, they are all 6ft, and with a jump and their arms raised, they can get up towards 9ft, no player can get that high.

And I'll never forget the way we used to pressure Given when he was at Newcastle, we'd press the ball all game, and press it even more when it was played back to him, and he couldn't deal with it, he'd slice it out and we'd have the ball 30yards from their goal.


I can agree with the OP, is he just an extension of Carson and Foster, made their reputation making plenty of great saves in losing causes
 
Brwned said:
Boumsong, Bramble and Bassong have all looked better since they've moved, true or false? Bassong looked like the best of a bad lot, but he's still better. Bramble's not been on the best of form, but he's still played better for Wigan than he did for Newcastle.
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I'd put it down to the management of the teams as opposed to the goalkeeper as to why those players have improved.

Going by your logic Bramble would be the exception to the rule as Kirkland is a much poorer keeper than Given, but has somehow improved than when he had a much better keeper behind him. It's down to the management & the club environment, not solely a cut & shut answer that its the keeper behind him.

If you want to go into why City have conceded all those goals, then you need to look at why all those shots are getting on target in the first place, which is the duty of the defenders & its quite well known that City's defence has been the weakness for them this season.
 
Brwned said:
Yeah, was hilarious given three others mentioned him for whatever reason before me:







And the only comparison I made was their ability to save penalties, which is very comparable.

Hilarious.

I know it's hard recognising the difference between my name and those three names though, they're just so alike.
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:lol: I believe you failed to spot the sarcasim in at least one of those posts....but keep going please by all means...
 
kietotheworld said:
How does saving a penalty go against the idea that Given is a very good shot-stopper but little else.
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Critical time in the game, against a top team, against Lampard who missed like 2 penos in Prem. It is needed a high level of concentration to stay focused and save that peno.

Again how is he penalized for defenders goofing up constantly. He leaked goals but how about shots on target in his games. He's a solid keeper, keeps his level of concentration despite knowing that at some point of the game those in front of him will do something stupid. It was inevitable..
 
Brwned said:
Which is 10% of the game, usually, at most. The rest of the time he acts as a supervisor.
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Time? What about Berbatov? He doesn't spend most of his time on the ball. Given does not spend 90% of his time telling his defenders what to do. His defenders should know what to do and occasionally Given may ask his defenders to do something. But that is occasionally.

Given is not the puppetmaster and his back four his puppets. They are all football players and Given may not do much in terms of organisation at all if there's another player who is responsible. Or there may be collective responsibility.

Brwned said:
Either you're saying his only job is to make saves from shots and catch crosses or you're deliberately ignoring the fact he doesn't do the rest of his job well enough.
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Stop misrepresenting me. I never said his only job was to make saves and stuff. I never said he was organising his back four badly - stop throwing false dilemmas around. He organises his back four to the best of his ability but if you have the positional sense of Titus Bramble not even Iker Casillas can do anything about that.

He has various roles but it is not his full responsibility to organise his back four, unlike someone in a management role at a bank. Given is not the head honcho at the whole collective defending aspect of Newcastle or Manchester City unless appointed or he decides to take charge of the situation. I've never seen him do that. The defenders themselves must be able to do it themselves.

Brwned said:
It's equivalent to a midfielder only having to pass the ball and not do any defending.
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However, does a midfielder not doing anything mean that someone else is necessarily responsible for this? Or is it the midfielder himself?

It is often very easy to simply blame the goalkeeper for any defensive mishap, when sometimes it's the idiots in the back four leading up to it who are really to blame.
 
johnmufc said:
The only ones who rate Given as world class are either:

a. Irish;

or

b. People who don't fully understand the responsibilities and attributes a goalkeeper must possess to be well rounded. They see Given make loads of Hollywood saves, but are oblivious when his failure to organise his back line costs his side a goal, for instance.

Given's reflexes are phenomenal, but his aerial ability, command of his defence, and distribution are just above average at best.
Good keeper, but there's a reason he's been at Newcastle for the majority of his career. He's not top club calibre.
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Maybe he's just loyal? But carry on...

Listen all those managers...bobby robson included and your telling us you 'understand the situation' yet he (bobby) as an example, didn't come to the conclusion it was Givens fault and he should have replaced him......nonsense. All those managers yet some people think they are more qualified. Amazing.
 
Manchester City goalkeeper Shay Given saved a late penalty from Frank Lampard as Mark Hughes' side beat Premier League leaders Chelsea 2-1 at Eastlands....
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egg_on_face.jpg
 
Allforone said:
:lol: I believe you failed to spot the sarcasim in at least one of those posts....but keep going please by all means...
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I did say 'for whatever reason'.

The only person in this thread that thinks Howard's on the same level as Given is MrMarcello.

Still, it'd take time to read through it all to actually understand things like that, right?
 
Brwned said:
Clueless people can still call others clueless.

Scholesy for example, like everyone else, can still see that GusHiddink's a spaz.

When you think about making a point, think about it another couple of times, just to be really sure it makes sense.
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You REALLY need to calm down with your stats though.

They are boring, no one cares about them, and do not give a fair review of a player.


I think you are a decent poster, but your stats do my head in.
 
Striker10 said:
Maybe he's just loyal? But carry on...

Listen all those managers...bobby robson included and your telling us he didn't come to the conclusion it was givens fault and he should have replaced him......nonsense.
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Nail on the head....Given was probably the main reason Newcastle lasted in the premier league for as long as they did....Christ to even begin to blame him for the constant brain fart feck ups of bramble and co is beyond demented...its plain retarded.
 
johnmufc said:
The only ones who rate Given as world class are either:

a. Irish;

or

b. People who don't fully understand the responsibilities and attributes a goalkeeper must possess to be well rounded. They see Given make loads of Hollywood saves, but are oblivious when his failure to organise his back line costs his side a goal, for instance.

Given's reflexes are phenomenal, but his aerial ability, command of his defence, and distribution are just above average at best.
Good keeper, but there's a reason he's been at Newcastle for the majority of his career. He's not top club calibre.
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What about Casillas then? Is he not top club calibre as well?
 
x42bn6 said:
Time? What about Berbatov? He doesn't spend most of his time on the ball. Given does not spend 90% of his time telling his defenders what to do. His defenders should know what to do and occasionally Given may ask his defenders to do something. But that is occasionally.

Given is not the puppetmaster and his back four his puppets. They are all football players and Given may not do much in terms of organisation at all if there's another player who is responsible. Or there may be collective responsibility.

Stop misrepresenting me. I never said his only job was to make saves and stuff. I never said he was organising his back four badly - stop throwing false dilemmas around. He organises his back four to the best of his ability but if you have the positional sense of Titus Bramble not even Iker Casillas can do anything about that.

He has various roles but it is not his full responsibility to organise his back four, unlike someone in a management role at a bank. Given is not the head honcho at the whole collective defending aspect of Newcastle or Manchester City unless appointed or he decides to take charge of the situation. I've never seen him do that. The defenders themselves must be able to do it themselves.

However, does a midfielder not doing anything mean that someone else is necessarily responsible for this? Or is it the midfielder himself?

It is often very easy to simply blame the goalkeeper for any defensive mishap, when sometimes it's the idiots in the back four leading up to it who are really to blame.
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You write too much.

Berbatov spends 20% of time on the ball and at least 20% of the time defending. Who knows what he does with the rest. Swap Berbatov with Given and you'll see how Given does comparatively little when he's not directly called into play. He doesn't do enough commanding.

The key thing you said there is that he organises the defence to the best of his ability - and he's showing that the best of his ability just isn't enough to make him world class.

That's all that matters here. There's a big difference between good and world class. There's relatively small difference between him being as good at everything as you think, and him being as good as I think. So much so it's almost irrelevant.
 
Scholesy said:
You REALLY need to calm down with your stats though.

They are boring, no one cares about them, and do not give a fair review of a player.


I think you are a decent poster, but your stats do my head in.
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Stats back up points.

Just because you can't use stats to back up points about technique or Modric doesn't make them irrelevant, some people talk about other things...
 
Brwned said:
Stats back up points.

Just because you can't use stats to back up points about technique or Modric doesn't make them irrelevant, some people talk about other things...
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I dont use stats in my arguments because I dont like using them to prove something. I tell if I like a player by watching them play, not by if they JUST score a goal or make an assist - or concede a goal.
 
Enigma_87 said:
Critical time in the game, against a top team, against Lampard who missed like 2 penos in Prem. It is needed a high level of concentration to stay focused and save that peno.
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He was concentrating very hard on saving an extremely important penalty and that makes him a brilliant goalkeeper?? Do you think there is any goalkeeper in world football who wouldn't be concentrating and focusing in that situation? What the feck else would he do, stand to the side of the goal and have a smoke and then shrug his soldiers when it went in?
 
Brwned said:
I did say 'for whatever reason'.

The only person in this thread that thinks Howard's on the same level as Given is MrMarcello.

Still, it'd take time to read through it all to actually understand things like that, right?
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:lol: Chill out kiddo its not really that important tis the internet you know...not the be all an end all...

Look its simple..you made a pretty shite thread with ridiculous comments about a man whos been easily one of the best keepers in this league for years and naturally plenty of people have pulled you up on it....its not a big deal really...its just a shit thread on the net...

Just try and enjoy your saturday night....relax and enjoy the football highlights like the rest of us....not everything on the internet needs to be taken so seriously brwned...your always far to serious...
 
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