No better than Howard, stop being silly.
The myth around Shay Given
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
No better than Howard, stop being silly.
I was talking about performances not ability. Bassong looked better than the rest, but still made poor inidvidual mistakes in front of Given last season. The talent was clear but he still didn't perform as well as he is now. Don't make me bring up his individual mistakes from last season one by one just to prove such a simple obvious point.
Who now produce them a lot more often in front of different keepers.
Keep putting it down to coincidence, keep finding excuses. I said the proof would be how he would do at a bigger club and he's still conceding too many goals to be ignored.
not disagreeing there....he has played behind some awful defences in his time.
Is he up there with Reina, VDS and Cek? nah...
He's not. Clearly. Same level at best.
If we take into account both are not great commanding keepers, Givens a far better shot-stopper.. Howard is average.
Givens never been top 5 keeper for me, but I do believe Brwneds going too far with his criticism, absurd.. his performances for Ireland demonstrate that if he plays behind a solid unit with alot of focus, he can be excellent.
Pleased with PIG's recent form, just needs to learn how to kick which was Fosters downfall.
Why is he not a top 5 keeper? He is better than Almunia.
He is better than every keeper we have had this decade bar VDS, and he aint that far behind even him.
He has a habit of making saves look a lot harder than they actually are. That's one thing that annoys me about him. A lot of 'keepers do it but he does it more than anybody.
The OP is a bit harsh but I agree that he's not world class. Never thought he was as good as he's made out to be.
The OP is a bit harsh but I agree that he's not world class. Never thought he was as good as he's made out to be.
Bad run of form isn't comparable to years of conceding at a poor rate. Reina's conceded less than Given has since Given moved to City. Doesn't make a strong point.
Given's went on to City and hasn't improved though, that's the point. He's still making every club defence he's played behind look laughably disorganised.
Yes, I saw the goal. It was a mistake that will go unnoticed, one of many. It's irrelevant.
Not on a Manchester United forum, unsurprisingly.
Given isn't better than Barthez in his pomp.
Bassong was always good for Newcastle. Any improvement is probably as a result of him being around better players and the fact he's still developing as a youngster.
Bramble and Boumsong were terrible for Newcastle, in one of the worst back fours ever assembled in the Premier League. Given was good in spite of these two. The mistakes they made were unrelated to Given - in fact, half the time, Given was working overtime with four idiots in front of him.
Bramble is playing better as he is under less scrutiny and pressure (Bruce mentioned this), while I think Boumsong is in a similar situation, although he's still fairly rubbish.
I'll give you a hint Brwned - for every odd improved player Newcastle have (Bramble, Boumsong, Bassong) - there's tons of other rubbish defenders - anyone in bold was a pathetic defender for Newcastle United and I don't know about the Dalglish era). This doesn't include the likes of Solano and Duff being shoved in at full-back too. It's not Shay Given which turns them crap. Shay Given just happened to be with one of the worst defending teams in the Premier League. Not everyone has gone on to have a better career after leaving Newcastle. Not at all.
Bramble and Boumsong were terrible for Newcastle, in one of the worst back fours ever assembled in the Premier League. Given was good in spite of these two. The mistakes they made were unrelated to Given - in fact, half the time, Given was working overtime with four idiots in front of him.
Bramble is playing better as he is under less scrutiny and pressure (Bruce mentioned this), while I think Boumsong is in a similar situation, although he's still fairly rubbish.
I'll give you a hint Brwned - for every odd improved player Newcastle have (Bramble, Boumsong, Bassong) - there's tons of other rubbish defenders - anyone in bold was a pathetic defender for Newcastle United and I don't know about the Dalglish era). This doesn't include the likes of Solano and Duff being shoved in at full-back too. It's not Shay Given which turns them crap. Shay Given just happened to be with one of the worst defending teams in the Premier League. Not everyone has gone on to have a better career after leaving Newcastle. Not at all.
If they had Almunia last year they've have finished outside the top four.
He is better than Reina and Friedel, that is for sure.
And how many howlers has he actually conceded? Feck all. You'd find it very hard to find too many goals that were actually caused by a mistake from him. It would be a lot easier to find mistakes made by Cech and even VDS. Given is ten times the keeper of Tim Howard. To put them even close to each other is ridiculous, nevermind on the same level.
Of course he is.
If he makes all these mistakes and howlers, name them. There will not be that many.
And you won't find many City or Newcastle fans who think he's shit. In fact, it'd be the total opposite.
And you won't find many City or Newcastle fans who think he's shit. In fact, it'd be the total opposite.
gimme a break. How often do you actually watch him then? No, your right it's obvious their defence are all at sea because of shay.......
Learn to read mate, I haven't argued at any point that the defence is all at sea because of him.
He has however been in the premiership for the best part of ten yrs which is more than enough time for me to have seen him and made up my mind that command of his area is the point at which he falls short.
If you watch enough matches with him in goal you will notice plenty of occasions where he hasn't appeared to have put his name on a ball before coming to collect it, hasn't signalled to defenders that an attacker was behind him(see Henry's hand ball which was not entirely his fault as the defender should not have let the ball bounce in the area but still there appears to be no shout), he also has a habit of coming off his line on corners and then suddenly making the decision to quickly go back on his line.
So no he is solely the cause of his poor goals against record as in Lescott and toure their isn't a leader or commnading prescence between them, but he still lack the kind of denfensive authority which makes a good keeper worldclass.
Are the players involved the players who haven't shown they're good in front of other keepers?
Colocinni, Bernard, Rozehnal, Onyewu, Cacapa all played for big european clubs before or after playing for Newcastle.
Carr, Babayaro both played well for other Premier League clubs.
The rest are youth players.
Colocinni, Bernard, Rozehnal, Onyewu, Cacapa all played for big european clubs before or after playing for Newcastle.
Carr, Babayaro both played well for other Premier League clubs.
The rest are youth players.
Of course they wouldn't claim he's shit - he's the best they can hope for. I doubt few if any B'burn or Villa fans would claim Friedel is crap (or worse than Given). Fans are always biased towards their players or against rival players. And you being a Given fan boy you are going to argue anything. I don't dislike nor like Given. He's a good keeper but certainly not top class. He's in that second tier which includes Friedel, Howard, Almunia, etc.
You won't find anyone who thinks he's shit.
You won't find many saying he's 10 times the keeper that Howard is either.
You're the one who's making getting hyperbolic, not us.
Brwned, you say it's solely Given's responsibility to organise the defence?
Is it solely VDS' responsibility to organise the United defence? I was under the impression that Ferdinand and Vidic actually do most of the organising.
Is it solely VDS' responsibility to organise the United defence? I was under the impression that Ferdinand and Vidic actually do most of the organising.
Steady on Randall I was on about top 5 in the world, not the premier League. I'd have him in goals for us and Arsenal.
Hes an excellent keeper.
Are you taking the piss? He is a far better keeper than Tim Howard.
No-one said he was. Barthez played in two world cup finals and had a stellar career for the most part.
Again you're exaggerating things, or even making them up, to get your point across.
No it's not solely his responsibility.
Reinas world class and better than Given. Don't go too far in your defence of Given.
Colocinni, has made a few blunders at championship level. He got worse last season after Given left.
Cacapa had been injured beyond repair when he signed for them
Rozehnal, Oliver Barnard and Babayaro were just shit to be fair.
If he was far better he'd be world class, that he is not.
Better, not far better or a level above.
I was referring to a poster who claimed he's only second to VDS when comparing to keepers who played for United.
Was good enough to be worth nearly £10m before he played in front of Given. His confidence was ruined and being relegated has only compounded this. HArdly surprising.
Rozehnal's went on to impress at Lazio and Hamburg, so clearly he's not shit. Bernard was good at Lyon. Babayaro couldn't have been that bad playing for 8 years at Chelsea.
Like I said, excuses excuses...
Boumsong played for Auxerre and Rangers; Bramble was a promising youngster at Ipswich; Bassong came through Clairefontaine and played over 80 times for Metz. They also fall in this category. What happens afterwards seems to be largely immaterial.
Relating Newcastle's rubbishness to Shay Given is pushing it because Shay Given is actually a good goalkeeper. Is it any surprise that in his final season with Newcastle United he only suffered 2 heavy defeats against Arsenal (3-0) and Liverpool (1-5), once he got a slightly-solid back four for once? Does that count against him?
You say that players go on to play better after leaving Newcastle, roughly equivalent to saying Kenny Miller is scoring goals now he left Derby County. What exactly is it about Shay Given which makes him THE reason why Newcastle United's defenders performed well? Is it Shay Given, or the fact that you have idiots like Kevin Keegan and Glenn Roeder trying to teach defending to silly defenders, or dodgy dealers like Souness desperately trying to sign players like Boumsong?
He is world class. And he has proven it year after year after year/
it weren't a mistake....
Given just flapped at a cross.
Barthez was fantastic for us in his 1st season, thereafter he was shocking apart from the odd wonder save.
Given has never had as bad a season in his life as Barthez had for us in his final season
I thought all defenders become shit at Newcastle?
What your are illustrating is that Given is some sort of disease for defenders. That's the hunch I'm getting here.
lack of a defensive authority implies he's the reason for defensive frailities else you wouldn't highlight given and you'd name the defenders who are actually meant to do the defending.
Your entitled to your opinion
1st tier:
Casillas, Reina, Buffon,
2nd tier: Cech, VDS
3rd tier: Akinfeev, Neuer, Lloris, Adler
4th tier: Valdes, Almunia
Casillas, Reina, Buffon,
2nd tier: Cech, VDS
3rd tier: Akinfeev, Neuer, Lloris, Adler
4th tier: Valdes, Almunia
Barthez also won a few points in 02/03 during the title run-in. He was a great shot stopper (like Given) and had his flaws (like Given). Barthez was the better keeper though. Just a clown at times.
I'm not saying he's the only reason, I'm saying that the other reasons made for good excuses to hide him being part of the reason.
Shay Given only suffered heavy defeats twice in that half season before he left? Great, Steve Harper only suffered heavy defeats twice in that second half of the season once Given left - 3-1 Arsenal and 3-0 Liverpool - does that mean he's on the same level as Given? Or even better, since his two heavy defeats weren't as heavy?
He's a good keeper, it's just people putting him as one of the best or world class are the one's I'm taking issue with.