Organising the defence is what he's directly responsible for. Those are your words. He is responsible for it, directly responsible. That's what you said. Solely is the phrase I'd use. Not too much of a difference in it. It's not as if you said he is directly responsible for organising the defence, along with the other defenders.
The myth around Shay Given
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
Organising the defence is what he's directly responsible for. Those are your words. He is responsible for it, directly responsible. That's what you said. Solely is the phrase I'd use. Not too much of a difference in it. It's not as if you said he is directly responsible for organising the defence, along with the other defenders.
Agreed. I simply see Brwned putting two unrelated things together and trying to tie it up.
Newcastle have rubbish defenders that play better after leaving Newcastle + Newcastle had Shay Given = It's actually Given's fault.
However, there are so many factors involved: Newcastle United, rubbish managers, injuries and rubbish chairmen. The managers in charge of Newcastle United during his reign included Souness, Keegan, Hughton, Kinnear and Roeder. Maybe it was their fault.
Newcastle had lots of players and things whilst having rubbish defenders. Why not blame Steve Harper? Steven Taylor? Alan Shearer? Shola Ameobi?
Better than reina imo.
Onyewu was horrible at Newcastle. He later ends up at Milan of all clubs (granted as cover but how does that happen?).
Trying to catch a ball and failing is a mistake.
Just because that didn't directly lead to the goal, and a bit of bad luck did, doesn't mean it wasn't a mistake. It just means it goes unnoticed.
A lot Given's mistakes are indirect mistakes. They're just a lot more often than certain other keepers direct mistakes.
He's part of the reason, yes. Not the biggest reason for City or Newcastle conceding so many goals, just one of them.
when I see this kinda talk, I just think of football manager.
Well I see Given in the 3rd tier myself and rate him above the likes of Valdes and Almunia.
So how come Ireland don't concede so many goals then? How come the Ireland players haven't been affected by the Given "disease"? It's amazing that some players, lesser ones in fact, manage to avoid this "disease".
Given makes very few mistakes and howlers as some have alluded to in this thread.
Guaranteed he'll make some ridiculous mistake to hand Chelsea a point just because I've been defending him to the hilt!
Given was never been part of the problem at Newcastle United. There is only so much you can do to organise a poor back four and he can't do it all. A general lack of leadership anywhere on the field didn't help them, but not all goalkeepers are leaders (not necessarily a weakness - more like a lack of a strength).
Steve Harper did not play much while Given was around. Harper cannot be blamed for much at all because he was mostly warming the bench. Harper came in with largely the same back four as Given had when he left. I never compared Harper and Given - that's a strawman argument there.
The argument above was simply a counterargument for Newcastle not conceding a lot of goals or major brainfarts once they had a more-or-less solid back four (Beye-Taylor-Coloccini-José Enriqué). Surely if Given were part of the problem, he would have found some way of screwing up this as well? A lot of the cock-ups came from a defender who simply can't play in England - Coloccini; or when N'Zogbia was stuck at left-back (think Rooney against Newcastle United a couple of seasons back - N'Zogbia left Rooney alone).
He is one of the best in the sense that he would be slightly better than Gomes, and on-par with Almunia on a good day.
More than one person can be directly responsible for something. Don't try to bring semantics into in, there's a massive difference.
A manufacturing company makes shoes. They have 100 employees. Some employees make the laces(defence + keeper), some do the outer design(strikers) some make the shoes themselves(midfielders).
There are 20 employees who make the laces, so there's 20 employees directly responsible for making the laces.
The 20 employees as a unit(the defensive unit inc. keeper) are solely responsible for organising the defence, not just 1/5 of the employees.
Given's not solely responsible in any way - he has more than one direct responsibility and he's not the only one responsible for it.
He he.
Given just saved a Lampard penalty.
Given just saved a Lampard penalty.
Just saved penalty from Lampard, this thread is badly timed to be fair.
Looked like a right tit on this thread eh mate.
Probably just saved 3 points for City off the penalty save!
Shit keeper.You just knew he'd save that penalty.
Tim fecking howard my ass.
oh dear.
Erm, no?
Given your opinion of how good a keeper he is is exactly the same as mine, if I look like a tit you must look like one too...
This is not true at all. If Given does his job right, then he is not to blame. Given is not "responsible" for cockups by the back four. It is his responsibility to try and organise his back four - it is the defenders' responsibility to organise the back four and defend properly. It is NOT Given's fault if Bramble bends over to let the ball float over where his head was. Otherwise we'd go round blaming van der Sar for Vidić's numerous red cards and bad fouls against Liverpool.
I didn't. I expected it to come back of the bar, smack him on his arse and trundle over the line.
erm how? I rate him below the likes of Reina, Casillas but I'd still have him in my top ten keepers in the world.. read through my posts.
You ranked him alongside the likes of Howard, Friedal etc
Tim Howard saves penalties very well, actually.
Might've saved that too.
So does Reina, and Friedel actually.
Being able to save penalties is an asset in itself, one I'd never commented on either way.
He he, sorry Brwned but it was going to happen when you make a thread before a big game like this
You have to laugh
You have to laugh
Because Howard has never saved a penalty in his life, right?
Astonishingly when I posted Given flapping at cross this half which lead to his defender having to clear it before a Chelsea player headed it on goal, you chose to not post a smart ass retort. Why is that, big man?
I rate Reina, so lets not bring him up.. Friedal is also a very accomplished keeper but taking his age into account and the level he's playing at I don't rate him now at this present time on the same level as Given.
Howard is distinctly average and doesn't merit being in this thread at all.
Hehe.
Keepers have to act as supervisors as well as doing the laces as well, unfortunately. Keepers have a tough time, but the supervising is often more important than simply making the laces right yourself.
I did? I'd like to find out where I out him alongisde Friedel and Howard, or admit that you've just made that up or mistake me for someone else.
I'd have him the level below VDS, which in your tiers would out him at number 3.
Interestingly, that's the same tier you picked. Hmm.
Because Howard has never saved a penalty in his life, right?
Astonishingly when I posted Given flapping at cross this half which lead to his defender having to clear it before a Chelsea player headed it on goal, you chose to not post a smart ass retort. Why is that, big man?
Yeah because no-ones ever flapped at a cross before.. Theres alot of keepers out there who are poor at collecting crosses.
All irrelevant given I was commenting on their penalty-saving skill, which in each case is good.
Works for me given it means we're closer to Chelsea now!
At least we know City aren't a threat to us with Given in nets anyway, so them beating Chelsea is an excellent thing!
Given being one of them. Which is why he's not in that top class that VDS, Buffon, etc., occupy.
There are a lot of keepers that are good at saving penalties too, like Howard.
That's his point, it's just your point reversed!
No it doesn't so you really need to up your understanding, Kuszcazk today kept a clean sheet yet he to lacks the kind of authority which turns a good keeper into an exceptional one, its nothing to do with actually conceding goals.
Defensive authority is the abilty of an individual to do things which contribute to a defense not being placed under any unnessesary danger of conceding. There will obviously be cases when a keeper can do nothing individually about these mistakes, however a couple of key examples of where trully worldclass keepers get these things right 9 times out of 10 are:
(1) defensive calls, sending a clear message to a defender to leave the ball for the keeper to collect or sending a clear message that an attacker is near.
(2) Coming off the line to collect the ball(how many times does Given do this and get nowhere near the ball or simply retreat back to his line?)
(3) arranging a defensive wall properly so that should the ball get through the wall the keep can see it coming.
For me Given does not do the above well enough to be considered as anything more than a good keeper, however just to repeat defensive authority is nothing to do with the actual amount of goals a keeper concedes its more about the mistakes he makes as an individual.
Casiilas and Reina are not great at collecting crosses yet I'd still have them top 3 keepers in the world.
Why should Given be the one who holds responsibility for his back four? How about the midfield, for not giving them protection? The strikers, for not heading the balls away? Given, after all, isn't that tall. Given is not responsible for lack of execution of his back four. Given is not in any way superior in rank than any of his back four. Given has his own job to do - his job is not micro-management - it's goalkeeping. He cannot supervise while making saves. He cannot be held responsible for lack of execution of his back four at all because he has more important things to do - goalkeeping.
Well, this thread blew up in the OPs face a bit didn't it?
True but they're better than Given by a considerable margin.
Beautifully jinxed sir, i doth my cap to you.
I won't disagree there. Both are exceptional.