I will be more than content if the only thing we take away from this season is CL qualification. Of course, finishing in the top four increases the likelihood of Jose staying on beyond this season, which seems unfathomable at this point.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
- Thread starter Livewire1974
- Start date
- Status
I will be more than content if the only thing we take away from this season is CL qualification. Of course, finishing in the top four increases the likelihood of Jose staying on beyond this season, which seems unfathomable at this point.
May be their results are for the short term(it looks like Sarri is self-deprecating by nature, no manager gets that lucky) but their is clear improvement. Arsenal look a lot better than they were under Wenger last season. Their signings like Torreira, Leno are clicking quite well. Where is that improvement for us under Mourinho? why are we still not pressing, still not passing quickly, still using big lampposts upfront, why are genuine world class players who lifted average sides like Arsenal look like a Championship player for us? Surely these are bigger problems at the club right now?
From his time here, from where I am viewing. Jose has got everything he asked for from Ed, except Peresic last summer (he did however get Sanchez in Jan after moaning about Citys spending), and a new CB this summer.
Jose got his 4 specialist signings first summer (including a world record Pogba), and we finished 6th in the league.
It's disingenuous to suggest as if Jose has been failed in the transfer market by the club. That doesn't mean that he got everything he has asked for (no manager does at any club, Pep wanted Sanchez and also wanted Jorginho) and this summer probably was one where there is an argument about it. However that is one window out of 5.
Now on a separate note, do I think the club need someone making football decisions at a higher level? Yes I do. Do I think it would help us yes, but it has no bearing on Jose underperforming in his duties IMO
Because they are Mourinho fans first.
United fans second
Ed's incompetence hasn't hamstrung Jose's performance to the extent people want to push. The problems we've been highlighting on the pitch were there before the summer debacle.
Mourinho wanted Perisic, Willian and Toby Alderweireld. I think he wanted to change the formation to 5-3-2 based on what he commented when asked about perisic. Situation could be very different if we had signed those players or others in those equilavent position.
Last edited by a moderator:
Quite right.
For me, the main issue lies with his mismanagement of the players. Not a single member of the first team squad has shown a marked improvement under his guidance - including the 10 players he has signed since taking over the club.
I guess we agree to disagree then. To my mind there’s more than enough to suggest ed has been hampering the squad upgrades. Does that absolve Jose of his errors? Of course not, but could he do better with someone else? I think yes, based on his past successes working with people that wanted to win.
Jose’s tenure here when compared to SAFs days, aren’t very good. But compared to moyes and lvg? It’s night and day. When Jose took over the football had been so bad over the moyes and lvg days, that he had us looking like we were an all out attacking side again. We weren’t, but we looked it by comparison.
Ed doesn’t care about winning the league, because in his own words it doesn’t effect the commercial side of Man Utd. That attitude is huge problem.
Mourinho will not play the way Klopp and Pep or Emery will want to adopt. He prefers to contain and remain compact - that's always been his way.
Tbf, I’m one of the most high profile posters here with a history of top threads and opinions and the mods called me “Wumminator” once Mourinho got hired. I’ve literally had posts from here featured in the mainstream press and won funniest thread of the year multiple times and yet they choose to sink to that level. And spoilers it was for having the opinion Mourinho didn’t fit in at United. It makes me laugh when they say the United forums are going downhill, well when people see people like me getting their name changed obviously the standards will drop.
I'm sorry you are terrible at reading comprehension. Truly am. Takes a special type of person to argue ad nauseam, while failing repeatedly a grade-school reading comprehension. Never said I wasn't a fan of a team I said I didn't care enough to support a sports team so blindly (that's the important distinction). I also never denied a connection exists.
Lol what does tribalism being a concept rather than a metaphor have to do with anything? Thinking outside the box doesn't have to refer to a metaphor. In your case, it refers to the basic, rudimentary, conclusion that b/c I don't claim any allegiance and think Klopp is a better manager I must be a Liverpool fan. Really simple stuff. I have to say, I'm pretty embarrassed for you at your understanding of the English language.
That doesn't even make any sense. I refuse to believe you're this obtuse.
You can always just not respond or put me on you ignore list. Nobody is forcing you to type the nonsense your writing.
What is specific about phrases like "serial loser", "mental fortitude required to cross the finish line", and "complete and utter capitulation" in regards to winning football matches? Can't wait to see how you spin this.
These are some of the most common sports generalities and cliches (they can be synonyms but based on your command of the English language I'm assuming you didn't know that).
I'm amused b/c you brought this up not me. Then when you embarrassed yourself you a) accused me of being a Liverpool fan and b) pretended you were drunk
If you haven't noticed, I'm not going to drop this and let you make it.
Well, Mourinho flopped but not for reasons you thought. Frankly speaking, the Mourinho from Chelsea 1st season and Inter would be a great fit for us. That I don't think you would accept. The problem is, Jose is currently shadow of what he used to be, even though he isn't totally useless.
Yeah it's pretty childish
Jose commented on Perisic being a a LWB over our main LW because he knows he is at a club where 70% of the fans and 100% of the board would put him under fire for shafting out Martial from the team.
First thing he did was shift both Martial & Rashford away from ever being his strikers & he made that clear from the instant purchase of Ibrahimpvic which he quickly replaced with Lukaku. Players like those are not judged by form or performance levels - they are vital to Jose's one and only tactics.
He then targeted Perisic afterwards - convincing everyone that he was going 352 & that perisic was only ever be a LWB for us. Whilst that could be relatively true - the 4231 was never going to leave United long term & perisic was going to be no different to how Sanchez came in & dropped an in form LW out of the team for no apparent reason except for some extra hard work defensively.
Also historically - this was a time when we were going after Bale - a right sided inverted winger on his left foot & historically Jose always uses one traditional wide keeping winger who crosses the ball with the other side having an inverted role playing in to the box much more.
It's no coincidence that when Sanchez the LW came to United - the whole perisic thing died but then Willain was our most wanted winger - a right sided wide keeping winger since we had a new inverted left winger in Sanchez.
The 352 is the formation that has fit ort squad ever since LVG left, from the wingbacks, to the partnerships of strikers including martial, Rashford Sanchez & Lukaku, the defensive width & stability from quantity etc - however Jose uses this for things like pre season matches where players like pereira do really well in such a team too - however soon as the league starts he turns to 4231. To this day Rashford's upfront display with Lingard against Chelsea playing 352 was to me our best display to this date - but there is only a 10% Chance that Jose would come to United to manage the team in a formation other than 4231 - where he has only really done once for a full season in Italy & that was well after him settling down.
Perisic was a replacement for Martial.
Yeah, why would anyone ever make fun of you?
Again I'm not sure why people keep mentioning the last 2 summers as if the team has been shite since Mourinho took over.
The last 2 seasons weren't failure to keep mentioning their summer. There was clear and steady progress from last LVG season, in the first season we won cups but our form in the league, and in the second season we improved massively in the league while still reaching another cup final. The team was improving and the ship looked to have been stabilized. We were moving forward. The quality of the players and results were improving.
The next step was to improve further more to close the gap with City and go from finishing comfortably second to gain closer points to City to be close to winning the title.
But then, out of nowhere, we decided to take off and decided "ok that's enough, no need for further money spent", then the dielmma and conflict of ideaa between Mourinho and Ed happened, which fecked up the team and led to the team going 10 stepa backwards after we had moved 4 stepa forward the last 2 summers.
Impossible to not blame Ed and the board. Out of nowhere they decided to stop at the second soot we got last second and weren't ambitious enough to keep improving the squad. Liverpool, who finished 4th, looked more interested in closing the gap with City than us. Any board whose team finished 2nd 19 points away would have splashed the cash, but then we came out with this!
If we decided out of nowhere and midway that Mourinho project here isn't going to lead us to win the title, why did we keep him in summer ? Could have ended his contract in mutual consent in summer and brought in someone. If we didn't like the ideas of his transfers anymore why Ed didn't go to him early in summer to tell him to modfiy his list, instead of waiting till the summer ended to brief that we vetoed the signings because they weren't good enough! I can list 10 possible ways we could have solved this dilemma earlier in summer but apparently Ed didn'tdo anyone.
That's why I think these are excuses from me. Ed can say what he wants about his ability to do things no other club can which is BS, but the whole ambition of the club was shown once we were finally finishing in top 2 and needed a jump to close the gap with first spot, he decided to take off his hand from spending and decide the team is good enough now. After being on steady progress for some time, now we are 10 stepa back and look like we will need to restart all over again next summer, Europe League, new manager, giving chances to deadwood to evaluate them, not liking signings done by previous managers and asking for his own, rinse, repeat.
While Mourinho is responsible for the problems we are having on the pitch, and we shouldn't be hanging in 8th spot as we're good enough to be in 2nd or 3rd, Ed's management of the team this year has been nothing short of shambolic and he's the main reason of this dilemma. He looked clueless and either didn't know what to do, giving Mouinho new contract then deciding to take off from signings, or the real ambitions of him and the board became clear : consistent top 4 and CL and that's it, anything more is welcome but that's the main target. Both situations aren't good enough and find it hard to trust them taking the team forward any more.
he could use the 3-5-2 with this team as it is right now. There's nothing stopping us from playing two strikers upfront (we've got 4 lukaku, martial, rashford, sanchez). We have an abundance of midfielders but no real number 10 and no wingers.
It suits the players we have but the manager doesn't have the flexibility in his tactics to adapt to the players. He is very one dimensional and will shoehorn players into position they are not coomfortable with.
It's just horse sh*t - you could argue that we as a team don't have a left winger when Martial plays whilst it's 100% obvious that we don't have a RW at all.
These kind of obvious decisions that pop in front of the managers eyes alongside things like Lukaku struggling as a target man upfront by himself - all lead to the questions - why are we not playing with 2 strikers upfront?
Why do we have makeshift strikers playing as wingers to provide us width & crosses to a makeshift target man rather than having wingbacks providing us the width whilst watching our strikers play more cohesively together in the centre in partnerships?
A very simple question that will not be accurately answered by @cheeky_backheel @haram @el3mel & the rest of the fans of Jose - the formation used for the last 2 & a half years does not match with the players that we currently have. We can cry all year about Jose not getting his RW or a CB good enough to play in a back 2 - however no one would give a blink about why we haven't tried to play a formation that doesn't needs makeshift wingers & allows the CB's more sharing of defensive pressure by zones due to pure quantity over quality.
352 is this United's natural formation & Jose messing around with it in pre-season shows that he knows it but he reverts to the formation he eats & breathes out of.
What is specific about phrases like "serial loser", "mental fortitude required to cross the finish line", and "complete and utter capitulation" in regards to winning football matches? Can't wait to see how you spin this.
These are some of the most common sports generalities and cliches (they can be synonyms but based on your command of the English language I'm assuming you didn't know that).
I'm amused b/c you brought this up not me. Then when you embarrassed yourself you a) accused me of being a Liverpool fan and b) pretended you were drunk
If you haven't noticed, I'm not going to drop this and let you make it.
You possess levels of delusion far beyond that of your average man, so much so that they blind you from the truth. The sheer amount of glaring inconsistencies that exist throughout your entire post is mind-boggling - that you then dare to accuse others of possessing a poor grasp of the English language just takes the biscuit. I refuse to believe anyone can be this stupid, you must be on a wind-up.
'Jurgen Klopp is a serial loser'
"mental fortitude required to cross the finish line"
"complete and utter capitulation"
Each of these phrases were said in isolation and directed at a singular individual - specifically Jurgen Klopp. In no way shape or form could any of said phrases be seen as 'speaking in generalities', certainly not in the context they were used in. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
They are stereotypes though (cliches by extension) so I'll give you that. The confusion began when you connected 'generalities and cliches' as if they were to exist as a single entity and be used as such, which is impossible because there is a very clear distinction between them. The two words do not connect and it is nonsensical to suggest otherwise. I might have picked up on this if were soberer at the time. Had you said generalities or cliches, or simply cliches, this might have been over sooner.
I hope we understand one another now. Peace.
P.S
If I'm wrong about you being a Liverpool fan then I take it back and apologize. If I am wrong
So why aren't we doing that too after 2.5 years? Why are we not compact? Why does De Gea need to pull out save after save every game? if Mourinho cannot even coach his philosophy after 2.5 years what's he good at?
I was thinking about the all the threads about how most of our players suck and etc, etc.
Well I disagree. I think we have better players than most of Prem's teams. And we should absolutely dominate most of the games.
What 11 do you think Guardiola would line up if he had our current players (all fit)?
My wild guess is this:
subs/rotation: Herrera, Mata, Rashford.
He would be looking for a RW asap and the play Sanchez through the middle. (My guess obv)
I can see a team like that absolutely dominate most of PL games if coached to play good, aggressive attacking football.
All 3 of the midfielders + Herrera I listed are absolutely capable of playing good short passing style and etc. If you put any of them in the city team they would all look great players, same goes for Martial, Sanchez, hell even Lingard would look beast I guess.
Smalling, Lukaku, Fellaini would barely play under him, probably getting shipped asap.
I believe we have players who should are way, way better than most of redcafe think and they would shine put in other teams. So all those 1bn complete overhaul bulshit is just not what we need.
Obviously we need few players here and there. But the current team is capable of much more than we see week in week out currently.
So yeah, kinda I think he should go. Which is sad, cause I always liked mou.
Well I disagree. I think we have better players than most of Prem's teams. And we should absolutely dominate most of the games.
What 11 do you think Guardiola would line up if he had our current players (all fit)?
My wild guess is this:
De Gea
Young Lindelof Bailly Shaw
Fred Perreira Pogba
Sanchez Lingard Martial
Young Lindelof Bailly Shaw
Fred Perreira Pogba
Sanchez Lingard Martial
subs/rotation: Herrera, Mata, Rashford.
He would be looking for a RW asap and the play Sanchez through the middle. (My guess obv)
I can see a team like that absolutely dominate most of PL games if coached to play good, aggressive attacking football.
All 3 of the midfielders + Herrera I listed are absolutely capable of playing good short passing style and etc. If you put any of them in the city team they would all look great players, same goes for Martial, Sanchez, hell even Lingard would look beast I guess.
Smalling, Lukaku, Fellaini would barely play under him, probably getting shipped asap.
I believe we have players who should are way, way better than most of redcafe think and they would shine put in other teams. So all those 1bn complete overhaul bulshit is just not what we need.
Obviously we need few players here and there. But the current team is capable of much more than we see week in week out currently.
So yeah, kinda I think he should go. Which is sad, cause I always liked mou.
Of course. And there's evidence to prove this.
Lukaku played better in 3-5-2 with Martial but it was never built on.
Rashford is completely a different player with strike partner for England
Sanchez was unplayable in Sampoli's aggressive 3-5-2 formation when chile won back to back copa americas. Sampaoli wasn't there in the second win but they played in the same way.
Martial we already know he's better closer to the goal and excels in sharp movements and link up play. Doesn't have the stamina to track back all game protecting the LB.
Even Memphis would've made something here because no surprise since he moved centrally he's found his feet again. And there's no point activating the buy back clause whilst Mourinho is in charge because he'll be made to play like the others.
Our strikeforce is one of the strongest around and should be one to be feared but Jose one dimensional tactics of makeshift wingers sacrificing themselves for one target man striker who isn't really a target man has severely limited and even stunted the development of this attack.
It's completely redundant to have Shaw and Martial basically doing the same job on the left and nothing coming from the right.
A balance could be struck of Dalot + 1 CM on the right
And Shaw + 1 CM with the midfielder and fullback working in tandem defensively and offensively.
Leaving the strikers with complete freedom to move in between the lines and link up with much shorter distances to the goal.
Last edited:
It is time he went. If he cannot coach and get the tactics to get this bunch of players playing anything like decent football then it is better he is sacked as soon as possible. Forget about the 6 million or whatever it is. It is better to be paid now than languish in mid table.
I think we were for 2 years. Let's be honest there's no way in hell that our squad was really capable of having the second best defence in the league even with DDG in goal. We needed serious organisation.
I don't think we have the same organisation this season. Jose called his defence out to be shite since the end of last season. He probably did so because 1) it's true and 2) he thought he'd get his targets by making more noise and pressuring woody to get business done perhaps.
Anyway it's backfired and we didn't get a single centre back. Jose will have to make do.
I can't believe you're actually arguing this. You can speak in generalities about specific person or thing. It's not about who it is directed at, it's about specifics of your statement. Since there were none it your statement it qualifies as a general statement about Klopp. This isn't hard to understand but somehow you don't. Look at the synonyms for generalities, you will find cliche, so my conjunction was correct.You possess levels of delusion far beyond that of your average man, so much so that they blind you from the truth. The sheer amount of glaring inconsistencies that exist throughout your entire post is mind-boggling - that you then dare to accuse others of possessing a poor grasp of the English language just takes the biscuit. I refuse to believe anyone can be this stupid, you must be on a wind-up.
'Jurgen Klopp is a serial loser'
"mental fortitude required to cross the finish line"
"complete and utter capitulation"
Each of these phrases were said in isolation and directed at a singular individual - specifically Jurgen Klopp. In no way shape or form could any of said phrases be seen as 'speaking in generalities', certainly not in the context they were used in. Why is this so difficult for you to grasp?
They are stereotypes though (cliches by extension) so I'll give you that. The confusion began when you connected 'generalities and cliches' as if they were to exist as a single entity and be used as such, which is impossible because there is a very clear distinction between them. The two words do not connect and it is nonsensical to suggest otherwise. I might have picked up on this if were soberer at the time. Had you said generalities or cliches, or simply cliches, this might have been over sooner.
I hope we understand one another now. Peace.
P.S
If I'm wrong about you being a Liverpool fan then I take it back and apologize. If I am wrong
"Jurgen Klopp is 1/7 in cup finals"
"hasn't won any trophies in 3 years"
"outplayed in the second half vs Madrid"
These are not generalities nor cliches, but specific statements of fact. Can you see the difference? Seriously, why don't you just look at dictionary definitions instead of arguing in circles? You obviously haven't bothered to look or we wouldn't be having this comical grammar lesson.
And I honestly don't care about you accusing me of being a Liverpool fan. I find it amusing you had to resort to claim like that, rather than debate the topic at hand.
Poor Jose.
400 million spent but he has to make do with dross. I guess it's thanks to him we're 8th and not in the bottom half. There's no way we could be any higher after spending all that money.
It's less about the amount spent and more about the players and positions he wanted strengthening in.
The lack of new central defender has been used to explain our shocking start to the season.
Who is this magical defender? There's no such defender. You defend and attack as a team and we've spent enough money to have a team which can do this effectively. And we don't. One player cannot change this.
It a rubbish excuse used to defend a past it manager and one that has failed to get the best out of the resources at his disposal.
Last edited:
he obviously needs to go
his biggest achievement has been convincing many United fans that he's some sort of victim
his biggest achievement has been convincing many United fans that he's some sort of victim
Have you bothered reading the point I've made?
And?
He's bought players for nearly every position bar GK and we're no better off.
So why would 1 player change anything?
VVD single handedly made Liverpools defence look unbelievably better.
Going by reports I think he wanted more than one.
Even Daves saves have dried up this season,biggest reason why we're 8th as we're largely playing the same shite we played most of last season
Are there are only two quality levels in your world or do you have a problem with English language?
If context matters, then shouldnt the manager, system, position etc that Sanchez is currently playing under not be taken into consideration when evaluating his on pitch performances?
The quality of a player is established on what he has shown he can produce but actual productivity is dependent on various other factors. Messi's productivity declined when playing for the NT not cos Messi himself declined in quality but that the system failed to get the best out of him.
Mkhi and Sanchez are about the same age (about a 1.5 month diff) and Sanchez has always been a better quality player than Mkhi. To now say that Mkhi is of equal quality to Sanchez cos the latter's on pitch contribution has declined since moving to United, while ignoring every other contributing factor is flawed imo. (Mkhi has failed to come anywhere close to the productivity of Sanchez at Arsenal which would imply he was a drop in quality, again showing that isolated on pitch evaluation is not conclusive evidence of quality)
Sanchez is a better quality player than Mkhi, and adding him improved the quality of the squad, it just wasnt worth it.
Its always such a great preface to address a question to 'fans of Jose' but I digress...
I disagree that 3-5-2 is our best formation and actually think it is possibly our worst. In a 3-5-2 you crowd the middle and force the spaces down the flanks. Your WBs would need a high work rate on both end of the field while the RCB and LCB would be often isolated against fast wing players.
Thus it requires
-very good WBs which we do not have. Our FBs struggle enough when the have coverage ahead of them and would be worse without it
- mobile RCB+LCB. Bailly for RCB, but no one for LCB. Lindelof would be wrong footed while Rojo is too slow
- CB/Sweeper to cover on both flanks. Smalling would be left exposed in that role. We already struggle in 4 man defence with closer spacing between CBs and would be worse in a 3 man setup.
- we barely have a DM that can do his own job, talk less of covering up for the WBs and CBs
Also upfront we dont really have a combination of strikers that can play off each other well enough to compensate for dropping from a 3 to 2-man attack front.
With a 4-3-3/4-2-3-1
- the LB/RB have the extra coverage from the LW/RW ahead
- the CBs are closer to the middle so the lack of a natural LCB is reduced
- the likes of Martial tend to have more space to work with coming in from the flanks
Why would you compare his days to Moyes and LvG two failures? Im not comparing him to SAF. Im comparing it to his remit when he signed a 3 year deal. He has failed
No need for further money spent like we didnt spend any money.
Look sometimes you’re not going to get your targets. Its almost as if some fans think they are playing football manager.
We certainly went for CBs in the summer and was unsuccessful. Btw we were not the only club to be unsuccessful in the market this summer. (See Jorginho).
The positions he did or didnt strengthen then are his own fault. We didnt have a right hand side to our team when he came in, and 3 years later we still dont. Young/Valencia are both past it wingers. Mata/Lingard/Rashford are a 2 no10's and a striker. Sanchez has exclusively played on the left and recently upfront, yet never been used on the right. the summer was spent trying to obtain an established LB in alex sandro despite having Shaw, but going for a teenager in dalot when that was where we actually did need an established player. 2.5 years he has been coaching the squad but there is not a semblance of cohesion? 2.5 years he has been backed yet we cannot undisputedly say what our first choice starting 11 is? The sooner the club is rid the better imo....
- Status