How can anyone be arguing that coming into December with minus goal difference and eighth in the table after 500 million pounds spent is acceptable?
He simply has to go.
He simply has to go.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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Don't worry about it. Your argument is so poor it's been debunked by someone engaging in it from the start as well as someone wading in half way.
I mean, this
Is just terrible.
It's pretty simple. A player is judged by his actual real life on the pitch peformances. One does have to apply context in which his performances existence, of course, but to a logical and reasonable extent. For example, claiming that Martial or Lukaku's job under Mourinho/at Manchester United is more difficult than that of a Sterling under the excellent Pep/Man City team, is fair. But putting the pathetic performances of Di Maria or Sanchez or any other poor United player ok the club, is a case of reaching/making excuses, really. As for the direct correlation between the quality of a player and his performance levels, that's the absolutely correct way of judging any individual, or team, as long as the sample size is correct.
If Messi or Ronaldo suddenly put in poor performances for a over a year, then they msot certainly would start becoming associated with that level.
They can because they're massive fans of his. Which I also find amusing. We have plenty of people here, it seem, who were big fans of the Chelsea/Inter/Madrid manager which is a tad strange. I mean, it's not even as if his team's played delightful football.
We've had that all along. It was absolutely insufferable for years. The amount of shite I've heard 'He doesn't turn to shit in his third year', 'he will change when he comes to United', 'He's a proven winner'.
But like.... reality is now staring them in the face. He's done a shit job.
He can't apply any consistently successful formation of the team and the bench is top heavy with his own signings. Doesn't inspire any confidence that a corner is about to be turned.
I've said it before and I'll say it again he can't apply any consistently successful formation of the team and the bench is top heavy with his own signings. Doesn't inspire any confidence that a corner is about to be turned.
City has not spent £250m on their defense, they have invested that same amount and those players are not worth less today.
I am sure that we have the cash reserves to invest in players as well, there is no evidence to the contrary. That the club is hesitant to invest money in old players whose asset value will decrease during their term of contract is just plain good financial governance.
We have the largest wage bill of any of the PL-clubs. Its larger than Citehs according to the last reports. That fact is what is hampering us, not the Glazers and/or Ed not wanting to invest in young players.
The by far most expensive deal this club has made lately is the Sanchez-deal, and he "cost" £25m.
I wish people would realize that the transfer fees are not that a big issue for the major clubs of today, the wage bill is.
Our problem has nothing to do with being able to pay £100m for Varane, which Ed famously is on record for; its that we cant fit in more top players and still keep our wage bill from not exploding Barca-style.
And with the oilmoney-driven transfermarket now finally is kicking back on players wages it gets more and more expensive to sign players wage-wise. This is our biggest issue, and tbf there is no excuse to have the largest wage bill in the PL and performing as we do. That buck stops with the manager for me.
This narrative that Mourinho has not been "backed" is just not true.
I find it interesting as well. In all my time as a United fan, I’ve never felt the level of admiration people have for José for anyone except Sir Alex. Even when we had players like Ronaldo, Rooney, Carrick (my favorite united player in his time here), and even my favorite player today, Pogba, I’ve never felt the kind of affinity that a lot of people seem to have for Mourinho. It’s especially mind boggling considering he hasn’t really done much for us.
Not even close at the time. Coutinho was still their best player by some distance and the likes of Firmino and Lallana were only beginning to show signs of promise under Klopp when Mourinho took over.
By the end of Mourinho's first summer in charge we were quite comfortably ahead in terms of squad standing - we made four very good signings and the only prominent ones they made were Mane and Wijnaldum.
Liverpool have spent better since but the biggest difference is they have a manager who plays a progressive style and supports the best talents at the club.
By the end of Mourinho's first summer we bought Bailey, Pogba, Zlatan and Mkhitaryan right?
Mkhi didn't much play and Mane was the far better transfer. Zlatan was brought in because we literally had no striker and then there was Pogba. I don't think there was miles between the two squads as you suggest. They still had Coutinho playing for them who was terrific for that season.
You are barking up the wrong tree bro
. I know that Mourinho has been backed but the Mourinho fanboys especially the one that I was arguing with will never accept that. That's why I pointed out other clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool, Watford etc have a better defence than us.Yeah, sorry, maybe I should not have quoted your post. I was kinda replying to the last couple of pages in this thread in general. My point here as in other threads is really that transfer spend or even worse the ridiculous "net spend" is so overrated when it comes to measuring if the club is willing to "spend" money/back the manager or not. The wage budget is what one needs to look at and we have the largest in the PL (if you dont count any "consultancy fees" that the City players might enjoy).You are barking up the wrong tree bro
Mourinho needs to do way, way better considering this, and I guess we agree on that...
So set in your tribalism you can't even think outside the box
You claim to be a fan of football in general rather than that of an individual club. If that is indeed the case (I am highly sceptical but whatever) then you would have no understanding of the concept of tribalism within football. In order to fully comprehend it, you would need to have experienced a deep-seated connection with a specific club who share a bitter rivalry with another. You deny such a connection exists. Odd.
Tribalism is a concept, not a metaphor. How did you connect it to 'thinking outside the box'? It doesn't make sense, mate.
You are a Liverpool fan, that much is blatantly obvious to anyone with a functioning brain, a quick glance at your post history and its general content would suggest as much. All but a handful of your posts fail to contain a reference to Klopp and/or Liverpool. That you are not man enough to openly declare your allegiance leads me to believe that you are deceitful and untrustworthy.
How many outs do you want me to give you before you will consider dropping this? I have told you, repeatedly, that I have no interest in following this line of discussion, but you insist on pushing it anyway. Fine.
Now, go ahead and enlighten me as to your understanding of the aforementioned terms, then explain to me how they relate to the post you are referring too.
*hint*
There is one such relation.
They wanted pep, and to get him them they structured themselves to be attractive to him. Didn’t he just sign a new deal as well? Where as we have Ed who couldnt give a shit as long as we make it to top 4 and he can sell Manchester United toilet paper to east Asia. For all Jose’s faults in style, his attitude to winning is something we have desperately needed here. No matter what’s true about city, they want to win everything. They don’t care about throwing money at the problem and the had a plan for making it happen. A plan that started in 2012. They invested in the club at every level and by the time pep did take over his seat was very warm and comfy. What have we done in that time? Moyes, lvg, jose, over paying for players, over paying those players, letting contracts run down to the wire, making no investment in any other aspect of the club other than the surface shit that looks good to investors and advertisers. Man Utd has become about money and almost nothing else. City has become about football(and washing the abu dhabi public image). So even when they make a mistake, they move on from it quickly. We cant. because we pay stupid wages that no one else will pay. If we want rid of players we have to subsidise wages or let them go free.
Look at the players they got, and look at the players we got. Almost 30 million for felliani ffs. 50 million plus loads of addons for a prospect. A guy who never wanted to be here and sold at a loss a year later. Where is our scouting network actually looking? Where the feck is a world class right winger we've needed for I dont know how long. Darmian is the best right back we could find? So good hes been displaced by not one, but two wingers. Where are the defensive mids that should have been bought in place of matic? Where are the defensive mids now that matic either needs a serious rest or is done? You can say jose causes drama and falls out with everyone wherever he goes, but he also always puts together a good team. Usually bringing in some top talent. Until he get here that is. you really think he just stopped being good over night?
We needed to over haul our defence. Have done for years. Thats swapping out Jones, Smalling, rojo, blind. Weve got rid of one of them. And Ed says "no!" to buying more. So how can we get rid of them if we dont get them cover first? This isnt rocket science. Theres been no movement on these players that Jose himself had a go at for not making the effort to get back to fittness. Instead going on about how mata was giving everything for the team. That right there says they are not his kind of players. But we cant get rid of them, because they are paid too much. Because Ed doesnt see the value in paying 300 million to move up one place. Do you think no one told him it wasnt about moving up one place, and that it was about not losing a place? Yet he still didnt invest. City bend over back
wards and forwards to get the best team they can, Ed couldnt give a feck beyond making the top 4. If we dont get rid of him soon, that will become the united way. People are worried we'll become the next liverpool, Im terrified we'll become the next arsenal.
Not one person is saying that. Not a single one.
Anyone arguing he shouldn't be gone end of season latest kind of is.
Or, and this is important so try to stay with me here, they arent. They just disagree with you about whats actually wrong at the club. We all want united to do better, we just disagree on how that can be accomplished.
Just because the start of the season is far from acceptable, doesn't mean we just sack for the sake of it. Give him time to turn it around, is what some section of the fans think. There are bigger problems than Mourinho at the club anyway.
I think you will find that many who think he should go, also don't think simply replacing the manager is going to solve our problems. However underperforming to the extent he has been isn't acceptable regardless of the circumstances.
The problem you have is thinking Jose should go means that you think Jose is THE problem at the club. Also anyone who think there is only one problem is also delusional.
I wasn't talking about his start to the season alone. His whole tenure has been sub standard IMO. Also its important to realise I am critiquing his performance it doesn't mean I think he is the only problem at the club.
Then you're at odds with sections of the fans who think his tangible progress over two seasons is worthy of keeping him. If you didn't find last season acceptable then fair fecks, but it was an acceptable season for many.
Please don't waste time on him. He is clearly a WUM. Now apparently it's Woodward's fault that we pay so much for players that the manager asks. The same moron will argue that it's Woodward's fault that for not bending over backwards and pay whatever it was needed for Maguire or Alderweireld. It's clear that anything and everything will be twisted into faults of others by these Mourinho fanboys.
I know you're quoting someone else but can you stop churning out childish insults and stop calling posters "morons" or "fanboys"? It's fine to have a difference of opinion and enjoy a civil debate without posters like you just making the forum toxic. Ignore posters that you might not like but refrain from childish name calling.
So again last season in isolation, or evaluating his whole tenure? Last season in isolation was ok, the whole tenure sub standard.
I originally quoted you when you mentioned the money spent and goal difference being far from acceptable. If you were to look at that applied to last season then we were on 81 points, 10 points better than his first season with the club and enjoyed the best GD since SAF. We should have scored more goals but did face key injuries and dips in form. For me it was clear progression with obvious room for improvement in the goals scored department.
I do look back at last season and think it's acceptable. We finished where I had expected. The Champions League 180mins to Sevilla was the biggest let down, but we did manage another cup final in the FA Cup so for me it sort of balanced out (I found FA Cup a lot more winnable than CL anyway, so beating Sevilla and possibly losing in the later round wouldn't have changed much).
Overall I think season 1 and season 2 was acceptable. Season 3 thus far is certainly not. But I don't think we should sack Mourinho yet for it, because his form has improved of late, he has a good run of fixtures to build on going forward and there isn't really anyone available anyway. If he steadies the ship and keeps us into top 4 despite the bad start with a good FA Cup and Champions League run, then he'd have more time beyond this season in my books.
Okay let's assume everything is wrong at United - the board, CEO, tea lady etc etc. Do you agree that we have a better squad than the likes of Bournemouth, Arsenal etc? Why do they look far better coached than our players, why do their play resemble good football whereas we are struggling to string passes together? How come Sarri and Emery can make their teams play like that in a short while with limited number of transfers? Why is our passing, movement never improving? Surely these things are on Mourinho and not on Woodward?
Yes we do have a better squad than Bournemouth and Arsenal. I think they are in a better place in the league at the moment because they had a fine start to the season and we haven't. If we finish below Bournemouth and Arsenal by the end of the season, I will agree we should sack Mourinho. Right now we are 4 points off Arsenal and level with Bournemouth. I'm not going to suddenly say lets sack Mourinho in November for it.
It's just outright weird logic. Hull were 3rd in the league after 9 games and I think stayed in top 4 up to November in the 2008/09 season? Were all the other clubs sacking their managers because of it? No. Because a season is pretty fecking long and you can't really conclude anything right now.
No you quoted me saying anyone who thinks he shouldn't be gone end of season latest thinks its acceptable. I didn't mention goal difference etc.
And we disagree on season 1, it was not acceptable to finish 6th in the league.
Season 1 poor - saved by winning the EL. Poor league results 6th
Season 2 ok - we didn't play well after Jan though, but good league finish in 2nd was good and better results vs top 6 (UCL exist and the way we played the 2 legs vs Sevilla not good)
Season 3 poor and even finishing in the top 4 end of season would only make it an ok season if not poor overall
After 3 seasons, in my book it would be 2 poor seasons and one ok season. I do not find that acceptable one bit.
Then if you look at the development and performance of players during that time then its not a good look either.
Anyway everyone is entitled to their opinion, but my original point was, if you think he shouldn't be gone end of this season, then you must find it acceptable (his tenure) which I really do not. Irrespective of what ever else is happening at the club.
Apologies - it was another poster mentioning the goal difference then.
So it's just a difference of opinion in this case. We finished 6th because we focused 100% on Europa last season, sort of like how Liverpool did on the Champions league and needed to win on the final game to stay in the top 4. I'm fine with 2 cups and 6th place for a new manager getting used to his squad, inhering Blind at CB, no striker, no real midfield and 2 good left wingers.
Season 2- I'd argue he's fine on too.
Season 3 - Jurys out but terrible start.
I don't find his start to the season acceptable but I don't think his overall tenure is sack-worthy, not yet anyway.
Mourinho should go now or end of the season, it doesn't matter. We need to coach who can motivate the team. Sir Alex won the league without the best players. He has the ability to get the team performance week in and week out. Klop is one such manager, I don't think the Liverpool squad is fantastic but they produce results. Is Henderson world class? Milner? Mane? Firming? Gomez? Many of their players are average or above average players yet they are fighting for the championship. We need a similar manager who can motivate players and play to our strength. Jose should leave at the end of the season as he has steady the boat but now we need a captain to steer the boat in the right direction.
I don't know why you are pointing out table positions as I didn't mention them at all. I'm talking about our aimless football, has there any improvements in our passing, movement, defending etc? Arsenal and Chelsea have made complete u-turns in their style of play, Arsenal who last season were crushed by Liverpool held their own against their pressing this year, Chelsea were a defensive counter attacking team under Conte last season and have transformed completely in a space of months by adding just one midfielder. These are the improvements I'm looking for not finished fecking fourth(IMO you fix the problems in the side you automatically get top 4).
I'm not saying that Mourinho should be sacked right now but if he cannot change anything in 2.5 years what's another 6 months going to do? I'm arguing this with you because you posted that there are other big problems at the club. Is this not a big problem to be discussing? the fact that the manager cannot improve us at all?
Lads, you can might as well stop arguing over this, he won’t be here next season.
Arsenal have been so piss in a lot of the games they've managed to somehow win. Have you seen them actively this season? Leicester, Palace and Everton are examples where they were far from convincing and won out of bursts. I am not fooled by Emery here because I genuinely think Arsenal's defense is far worse than it looks, and it will show soon enough. They should have really lost to Wolves on top, and I'm quietly looking forward to their fixtures against Bournemouth and Spurs.
Chelsea have started really well under Sarri, but that itself is not so normal. I think I read somewhere that even Sarri himself was surprised.
But its his 3rd season...
We're going in circles. I'm not saying Jose has had a good start to this season.
Yep, and he is going nowhere till then as well. So we may as well back him. If he leaves us with CL, it wouldn't be seen as a bad 3 years in hindsight.
If he goes there will be trouble...if he stays there will be double...hmmm
I thought the point the poster was making was that in 2 and a bit years our football hasn't really improved.
Passing, movement, defending. Our style of play etc.
Only people Ive been "arguing" with think Jose going will have the effect of a magic wand over the club.
And youre right, its not acceptable. But could he do better with someone other than Ed? Could LVG have done better than someone other than Ed? My argument has been and always will be that Ed needs to go first. I never wanted Jose here, and sure as feck dont want his style of play to become the new "united way". But I just dont see us progressing at all if Ed picks Joses replacement. Hes had 3 chances, and each time hes picked a defensive minded manager. Even after the match going fans screaming "attack, attack, attack!" he went and got Jose. I mean, wtf?
My arguments are that theres a lot more than Jose wrong, and that maybe Jose could have dont better with the different infrastructure. Ive been beaten for that opinion by many people claiming its just jose, everything else is good enough, its just the manager. Which is just bizarre to me.
TL;DR Bin Ed, then Jose. To do it any other way just invites more of the same.
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