All were players he asked for.400 million on 11 players, yet only two starts against city. Still people thinking, should he go or not ?.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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This thread seems to go round in circles. I don't think there is a single poster that believes the poor start has nothing to do with Jose whatsoever. People are just saying we do need a better defence regardless of Jose and Woodward needs to desperately invest quality in that department.
But we appear to have lazy posters coming out with "omg Jose fanboyz think it's all woodys fault. Can't blame him 4 anything lulz".
It's just getting tiresome.
But we appear to have lazy posters coming out with "omg Jose fanboyz think it's all woodys fault. Can't blame him 4 anything lulz".
It's just getting tiresome.
Depends on the list and whether there was * next to the player's name in the list
Now this will change to how these players are club signings and not Jose's.
Don't pay the asking price and miss players = Jose isn't backed. Woody should be sacked.
Pay the asking price and sign the players Jose wanted = It's not Jose's mistake that Woodward overpaid.
You've literally just ignored all the examples about players who were overbought and glossed it over with "Woody paid the asking price". Are you actually serious?
He royally fecked up with Herrera and ended up missing the buyout clause for Fellaini. He failed to negotiate Moratas price down when Chelsea seemed to do it quote easily. He somehow valued Di Maria at 2x Sanchez when they came to the Premier league.
None of these are asking prices. We are the only club stupid enough to pay stupid amounts. No one wanted Pogba for 89m that summer, no one wanted Di Maria for 60m that summer, no one wanted Lukaku for 75m, and so on.
I just hope we get him his CB signing in January. The man doesn't handle disappointments well. Could be what stops us from crashing and burning in the second half of the season.
Chelsea bid £75m for Lukaku.
Ah yes the panic bid that even they knew wouldn't make any difference.
That's the price. Either we pay it or miss the player. Fellaini signing was a blunder but points like "he failed to negotiate price for Morata" adds nothing as no one knows who is the player we wanted. Going by Lukaku's friend, ManUtd negotiated with Lukaku for long time. Yes, we are the only team ready to pay 75 million for Lukaku as we were the only team who were desperate for Striker.
Van Gaal wanted Di Maria and Di Marid had very good season when he left Madrid. Obviously he won't be cheap signing. Sanchez wanted only CL clubs which rules us out. There was lot of news on that and also that he wanted London.
No one wanted to pay that much for Pogba but still club did to back the manager and sign the player he wanted. So how can anyone use that against Woodward? I don't understand why people moan about overpaying to sign players when we don't have a clue about how the negotiations go.
If anything we should praise the guy for overpaying to sign the players manager wanted and back them with everything he could. Funnily this is used against Woodward.
Jose fan - No one made 75 million bid for Lukaku.
Other poster - Chelsea did,
Jose fan - yeah but it was panic bid when they knew it won't make any difference.
In case you missed the memo - Ed is the boss not Mourinho. Ed is not being forced to buy any player as can be seen from the players he declined to meet the selling price for. If he agrees to a transfer, that is cos he deems it satisfactory by his own judgment cos the final decision rests with him.Don't pay the asking price and miss players = Jose isn't backed. Woody should be sacked.
Pay the asking price and sign the players Jose wanted = It's not Jose's mistake that Woodward overpaid.
Backing a manager does not require that you buy him every player he fancies (else which manager can be sid to be 'backed'), but by filling the needs he has identified in the squad. If he wants an experienced CB, even if its not exactly the player he desired. This happens often enough in the sport.
The problem arises when it is decided unilaterally not to fill the need or some backroom executives determines that the need identified by the manager does not exist. If you dont trust your manager to correctly identify the needs in the squad, then you are better off firing him.
I don't really get your point.
Some players, the club feels the need to go the extra mile to get the player the manager wants, some cases the club doesn't thing it should. Happens at every club. Nobody here has a clue why those players cost that much or the circumstances the club felt it had no choice but to pay.
If it makes no difference then why make references to it.
The difference it does make though is that you have more money to spend on more or better quality players.
This whole negotiating transfer fees thing now is hilarious. What do you guys thinks happens? You bargain like you're in Camden market?
These players that we're meant to get for cheaper are multimillion pound assets. To get even a couple of million knocked off you actually need some kind of leverage. Liverpool tried to get a few million off Fekir this summer (and they had some real leverage with his injury record) and they got told to feck right off. It's very much a seller's market, because clubs are loaded. They don't want to lose their best players, because they know the money they will get will ultimately be worthless unless they can go out and buy the same quality for the same value or less.
These players that we're meant to get for cheaper are multimillion pound assets. To get even a couple of million knocked off you actually need some kind of leverage. Liverpool tried to get a few million off Fekir this summer (and they had some real leverage with his injury record) and they got told to feck right off. It's very much a seller's market, because clubs are loaded. They don't want to lose their best players, because they know the money they will get will ultimately be worthless unless they can go out and buy the same quality for the same value or less.
Much like Sarri, Emery, Klopp and Guardiola took ages to implement their style, right?
So Woodward signs only the players he fancies? Not the player Jose asked to improve the team? This is the only summer where Jose didn't get the players he wanted. We also failed to offload players which played the part in that.
First season Jose wanted 4 players and he got 4.
Second season Jose wanted 4 players, he got 3 and Sanchez in Jan instead of Perisic.
Now don't give me the list nonsense, citing Sportskeeda website.
This "Woodward signs the players he fancies" is just nonsense. Now again back to "back him or sack him". How typical.
The first bold bit is a wonderful narrative to suit an incorrect agenda El, why?
Pray tell what big name players Jose has lost? Klopp came into a Suarez-less Liverpool, then contended with a season or so of "When's Coutinho off to Barca then?" and then actually lost him. The money from these 2 sales essentially funded the players you list.
The 2nd part is absolute waffle I'm sorry but it truly is. You mean 2nd place where we finished further behind City (19pts) than LVG done in his "worst" season (15pts). The only reason 2nd-4th matter now is cause of UEFA greed. If you doubt me feel free to google Jose's quotes from approx May 2017 when he was giving it loads about "United don't chase top 4, we chase trophies" and folks bought into it. Fast forward to May 2017 and what was it Jose was saying without any trophies? Oh yes... "2nd place is one of my greatest managerial achievements"... You what? So which is the better achievement? Sounds to me like he is just spoofing his way through it all and hoping folks have short term memories and lack intelligence.
How is it that the "quality of players have improved from LVG's last season" when Jose is overly reliant on LVG signings to keep him in a job currently as his own investments have stunk the place out? He wanted rid of Shaw and Martial for months on end, could well argue now both are currently keeping him in a job. Romero a superb back up keeper option and incredible in the cup runs for Jose, where he's found any success. Rojo great for him when fit. Hell, he's infatuated with Fellaini a Moyes signing
Jose is signing better quality players? Yet Lukaku, Sanchez and Fred all benched vs City. If your including Sanchez horrendous 26m salary, that's approx 150m sat on the bench doing sweet fa for him and he's blaming the board?
Part 3, when you start to judge things fairly I'm sure you'll start seeing the reality of Poch / Klopps situations of losing players regularly and in Pochs case working on a shoe string budget and often managing to beat us and finish ahead of Jose (season 1) and only just missing out on doing it again last season. I think folks need to consider the variables before posting such linear sentiments to form the foundation of their arguments.
Part 4, no we didn't. Won 2 trophies to winning none...isn't that often a stick used to beat Klopp & Poch with? Not winning trophies. I'd argue Liverpool had a better season than us last season for finishing 4th and making the CL final, far more difficult to achieve than an FA Cup final.
Reality is the pressure is really on Klopp to deliver this season as he has only started spending big from Jan of this year with VVD and the summer investments. At least there is clear improvement again from Klopps Liverpool with VVD, look how much their defence has improved already on last season. Isn't that what Jose should be doing but with our attack considering he's bought Lukaku, Pogba, Sanchez? Yet currently Southampton have registered more shots than us this season in the Premier League and we've scored less this season after 12 games than we done last season.
Your paragraphs at the end aren't steeped in facts either really cause you are again ignoring the players Klopp had lost and the huge rebuilding job he has done with Liverpool, Meanwhile Jose is dragging his feet and doesn't seem to want to cut any players. How can LVG cut players with no issues and support from the board yet Jose can't in a window more? Instead Jose is handing out new deals to bit part players, Darmian is the perfect example. As per Darmian and his agent, he wouldn't release him back to Italy cause he didn't have defensive cover, yet he loans out 2 talented kids in TFM & Tuanzebe.
We should all be thanking Ed for showing better football knowledge than Jose for over ruling him in his wishes to sell Martial in the summer. Think its safe to say had we sold Martial we'd legitimately be in a relegation battle with Fulham and Newcastle currently!
You know its bad when an accountant is making sounder judgement calls than your manager!
I didn't continue reading after that Suarez part, which was very early. That part was RAWK worthy. What's Klopp related to them selling Suarez 2 seasons before he arrived and already fecking up its money on many average signings that led to them moving from second to 6th in Rodgers second season ? How can you actually give an excuse to a manager that his team sold a player 2 seasons before he arrived ? This excuse is worthy of Liverpool supporter. Imagine reading it at United forum from a United fan.
He sold Coutinho and used the money to buy VVD for 75m, Alisson for 67m and Fabinho for 43m, not to mention the earlier Keita for 50m, and previously Ox for 40m the previous summer. He lost only one, one player and replaced him with many others in position their real weakness was in.
I just noticed you threw Poch around midway in the post, while I wasn't even talking about him.
We're not making it either way so let's feck him off and move on then.
There's no point sacking him if you don't have an alternative ready. I suspect we don't.
If you've got gangrene it's better to cut off the diseased limb, even if you don't have the prosthetic ready. Works out pretty well for all the other clubs who take the same approach.
Why didnt we sign perisic? (BTW Sanchez replaced Mkhi not Perisic)
Because we didn't meet Inter's demands which was asking Martial in return?
There is one interview with Inter director where he said only way Perisic would have left is if they got player + cash. So there is your answer. I know Di Marzio and all reported 50 million thing but I would rather trust Inter director than any journalist.
In any case, managers don't get all the players they want. FFS even Pep who is backed by oil state didn't get all the players. Jose wanted 8 signings and he got 8 signings. Getting 7 itself shows how well he was backed.
Jose wanted 4 signings and 4th signing was Sanchez instead of Perisic. What's the difference? It's the "net spend" that others used to argue.
For example, Sarri wanted Higuain, Rugani and got no one.
Pep wanted Fred, Jorginho, Sanchez and missed out all 3 signings.
Poch wanted few players and got no one. Not even a player from Aston Villa
Welcome to the world of reality where footballing world doesn't revolve around Manutd. There are many other clubs who are strong financially to compete, to reject offer and retain players and also to make things as hard as possible.
Well said and much better than some of the paragraphs upon paragraphs of utter drivel that have popped up over the past few pages.
Luxury signings vs vital signings. Ok.
It is disingenuous to suggest Jose hasnt been backed because he didnt get a CB in one window, especially since hebhas pretty much got everything he has ask for in previous windows.
It is also disingenuous to suggest United didnt attempt to sign a CB in the summer.
Pretty much this. We are not playing football manager
I also love how Jose has convinced everyone the major problem is our CB's, and we'll be grand as soon as we sign some. This would have made sense if we are any good in attack but we're not at all. These same CB's were quite good last season, started this season terribly(mostly due to Jose and his pre season shithousery) and are gradually improving. But its looking like that will be our focus this January, we'll probably buy some more CB's, and continue with our deplorable football and he'll look for another area on the pitch to shit on
Jose has bought a total of 11 players since he has taken over. Please dont suggest it is largely the same squad. It is not.
LVG failed because he couldnt get the best out if established players like. Di Maria Falcao RVP Schnederlin Bastian etc
Given more time he probably would have done a good job as he had made a good base.
All this talk of money being more important than success yet the club went after Jose (because he was seen as a winner) and gave him a world record player and practically everything he has asked for. Makes sense.
Who decided not to meet Inter's demands? Was it Mourinho?
Not saying he should get all his signings but others shouldnt pretend like he got his wish list granted.
Managers in most cases have no control on said 'net spend' cos they dont negotiate the price of the buys nor do they negotiate the price of the sales. Credit and criticism for such should be on those who negotiate those deals.
Sarri and Pep still got other players in Jorginho, Kovacic, kepa andMahrez. But more importantly, only each manager can speak to the importance of the need they are trying to address with the signings they missed. Managers rarely get their dream team and some should not post like Mourinho spent 400m doing so.
Ed decided which players to buy at which price point and which deals to ignore. He also is responsible for sales as well and thus the overall composition of the squad and the money spent assembling and keeping it. Good or bad - it is on Ed.
Mourinho is responsible for getting the best out of the squad at his disposal, either in style of play or results - good or bad, it is on him
I didn't say that though. I feel like the anti Mourinho are the only ones who is making the whole issue revolving around not signing a CB while that's not true. That's not the main issue I'm talking about.
He was backed well the previous 2 summers. We were making steady progress, slow but steady. We didn't take the logical step to continue the further improvement or try to close the gap with first spot. We suddenly decided to stop at one point, finishing second, which is something we shouldn't be content of as a club. That was frustrating to say. That's completely irrelevant from our problems on pitch now, which are 100% Mourinho, but whoever the manager is, the summer was frustrating and a failure.
The most frustrating thing is when Fabinho was signed earlier in the market for Liverpool, I went on a meltdown that this if we didn't act and move before World Cup, it's going to be a farce of market. People kept saying I was overreacting, going on meltdown, need to calm and mocking the post etc. Very annoying that was clear earlier in the market we will be in for trouble and it ended up actually happening.
There's a difference between a club doing what it can, agreeing terms and agreeing on transfers while willing to spend, but a player refuses to join and changes his mind to go to other club, something you can't blame anyone in the club for, and between deciding to veto signings for lame excuses. You can't blame Jorginho deal on City, but you can, however, blame what we did in summer on our board basdd on the briefing Ed did to the media.
As I said, there was 10 better solutions Ed could have handled the transfers issues with Mourinho from very early in summer but he chose the worst of these solutions. It's not about not signing Toby or Willian. We are all not that simple minded! It's about the way Ed handled the situation from start to finish, which was disastrous from start to finish.
There's no universal law that say I should take one side of this argument. Imo, both Ed and Mourinho are at fault and fecked up this season, Mourinho on pitch and Ed off the pitch.
You asked why Perisic wasn't signed, I said why. Otherwise we would have had average old player warming our bench and Young Martial tearing apart in Serie A.
Getting 7/8 signings means he was backed and then add the bonus of signing Sanchez.
So can we blame manager for not getting best out of players? Well that's what we are doing, not for the price of the players.
Why not? Jose signed 10 players for his first team. So what's wrong in saying Jose spent 400 million? It's not like Jose is blamed for spending so much money, he is blamed for not getting best out of players. If he was getting then no one could talk about money. Also one of the reason why money is always used in the discussion is when Jose fans keep posting the same nonsense how he wasn't backed.
Now the laughable part, Sarri and Pep missed few players and got others? How is it any different from what Jose got?
Also which CF did Chelsea sign instead of Higuain. Which CB did they sign instead of Rugani?
Which center mid did City sign instead of Jorginho and Fred?
So can we say Jose is doing very poor job? Or somehow it will be redirected to how Jose wasn't backed because Perisic wasn't signed?
Ed doesn't decide which players to buy all by himself. He buys the players Jose wants. Obviously he won't sign every player as it's impossible but he signs all the players possible to sign, which has done it every summer except last one. Again one more point that is always ignored is squad size. And no because you post more nonsense like how players don't have to be registered, we are not backed by oil state.
I didn't continue reading after that Suarez part, which was very early. That part was RAWK worthy. What's Klopp related to them selling Suarez 2 seasons before he arrived and already fecking up its money on many average signings that led to them moving from second to 6th in Rodgers second season ? How can you actually give an excuse to a manager that his team sold a player 2 seasons before he arrived ? This excuse is worthy of Liverpool supporter. Imagine reading it at United forum from a United fan.
He sold Coutinho and used the money to buy VVD for 75m, Alisson for 67m and Fabinho for 43m, not to mention the earlier Keita for 50m, and previously Ox for 40m the previous summer. He lost only one, one player and replaced him with many others in position their real weakness was in.
I just noticed you threw Poch around midway in the post, while I wasn't even talking about him.
Suarez left on 11th July 2014, Klopp signed with Liverpool on 8th Oct 2015... so 14 months, not two years. Suarez was their top scorer the previous 2 years with over 30 goals each season, after he left their top scorer Gerrard had 13 goals... Are you seriously suggesting losing Suarez had no impact? Liverpool we're without a proven goal scorer when Klopp took over.. I shouldn't have to explain this but evidently you can't see the obvious impact losing a player of that quality has on a team and an incoming manager!
If you want an example in recent years at United, look at the impact losing Ronaldo had on us or perhaps Fergie being incapable of finding adequate replacements for Scholes and Giggs, the former coming out of retirement and the other playing til he was 40!
Just to further prove my point they also lost Sterling to City in 2015.
Liverpool then lost Coutinho in August 2017, so in approx a 3 year period they lost their 3 most talented players arguably. Three players heavily involved in goals for them. One of them was only 14 months prior to Klopp taking over, Sterling left only 3 months prior to Klopp taking the hot seat and then he lost Coutinho also 22 months into his tenure as Liverpool manager.
So when a managers team is heavily depleted of its talents and especially in a specific area thrice they indeed have a very tough task to replace said players.
Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho all left in a 3 year period approx for a total of 247m, he replace those 3 with Salah, Mane and Firmino for an approx total of 110m. Yet Klopp if anything improved Liverpool's attack by not relying solely on any one particular and instead had 3 attacking players on form by an large and the went on to score more goals than Rodgers led Liverpool.
Sound transfers, sound coaching = positive results and improvement.
Now, pray tell...what talents has Jose lost during his tenure or even prior that could possibly hurt his chances of improvement? ADM never even wanted to sign for us and ran at the first chance, he got Mikha, failed and got without a doubt a far superior replacement in Sanchez and he too now looks like he has never even encountered this odd object called a football he has at his feet! Oh and bear in mind, you have told the Cafe that LVG's signings were of a poor quality and Jose's superior yet his own investments are sold, benched or not even in the squad of late
Imagine not having the common sense to put 2 plus 2 together and see what I was saying?
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Don't pay the asking price and miss players = Jose isn't backed. Woody should be sacked.
Pay the asking price and sign the players Jose wanted = It's not Jose's mistake that Woodward overpaid.
At this point it has to be trolling.
All this talk of Jose not getting his signings and this being the reason he isn’t doing well has me feeling sorry for poor old Pep. He didn’t get VVD, he didn’t get Sanchez, he didn’t get Fred and he didn’t get Jorginho. How the poor man functions or has that team where it is I have no idea.
Oh yeah, forgot about VVD. Now that's VVD, Sanchez, Fred, Jorginho. Also Laporte and Mahrez joined at least 6 months later than when he wanted. Poor Pep, not sure how he is dealing with shit board.
Im no Jose hater. Im speaking the truth.
I have already also said that we need to fix things off the pitch in terms of player signings and managerial appointments.
But this season wasnt fecked up because we didnt sign players (even though we did). Not signing players to me meant we wouldnt be able to overtake City. Thats not fecking up the season and to be honest when you get to that stage it depends where the manager wants to improve and what players are realistically available.
Suarez left on 11th July 2014, Klopp signed with Liverpool on 8th Oct 2015... so 14 months, not two years. Suarez was their top scorer the previous 2 years with over 30 goals each season, after he left their top scorer Gerrard had 13 goals... Are you seriously suggesting losing Suarez had no impact? Liverpool we're without a proven goal scorer when Klopp took over.. I shouldn't have to explain this but evidently you can't see the obvious impact losing a player of that quality has on a team and an incoming manager!
If you want an example in recent years at United, look at the impact losing Ronaldo had on us or perhaps Fergie being incapable of finding adequate replacements for Scholes and Giggs, the former coming out of retirement and the other playing til he was 40!
Just to further prove my point they also lost Sterling to City in 2015.
Liverpool then lost Coutinho in August 2017, so in approx a 3 year period they lost their 3 most talented players arguably. Three players heavily involved in goals for them. One of them was only 14 months prior to Klopp taking over, Sterling left only 3 months prior to Klopp taking the hot seat and then he lost Coutinho also 22 months into his tenure as Liverpool manager.
So when a managers team is heavily depleted of its talents and especially in a specific area thrice they indeed have a very tough task to replace said players.
Suarez, Sterling and Coutinho all left in a 3 year period approx for a total of 247m, he replace those 3 with Salah, Mane and Firmino for an approx total of 110m. Yet Klopp if anything improved Liverpool's attack by not relying solely on any one particular and instead had 3 attacking players on form by an large and the went on to score more goals than Rodgers led Liverpool.
Sound transfers, sound coaching = positive results and improvement.
Now, pray tell...what talents has Jose lost during his tenure or even prior that could possibly hurt his chances of improvement? ADM never even wanted to sign for us and ran at the first chance, he got Mikha, failed and got without a doubt a far superior replacement in Sanchez and he too now looks like he has never even encountered this odd object called a football he has at his feet! Oh and bear in mind, you have told the Cafe that LVG's signings were of a poor quality and Jose's superior yet his own investments are sold, benched or not even in the squad of late
Imagine not having the common sense to put 2 plus 2 together and see what I was saying?
So we had reached a point of giving excuses for Klopp because they sold players before he even arrived. That's a new level of excuses for me. I'm not sure Liverpool fans with their delusions will even descend to this level of excuses.
That's hardly away from my point is it. I said us being in 8th and losing to WHU and Brighton is 100% on Mourinho, as the squad should be good enough to be in top 4.
However, this can't lift any blame from Ed for the summer failure as well. Both are separate things and there's nothing preventing anyone from blaming both.
I hated Moyes and wanted him gone, but that didn't change the Fellaini summer to a good one. It was still shite and failure from the board. Doesn't excuse Moyes for the slightest, but doesn't excuse Ed either. Both go hand in hand.
The question was who made the decision not the consequence of doing or not doing so. Shouldnt be a difficult question to answer imo
There is no added bonus. Sanchez was exchanged for an earlier signing.
You cam blame the manager for not getting the best out of players without the references to how much was spent.
Its wrong cos Mourinho did not decide how much was spent. Ed made that decision
Like I said earlier, backing a manager is reflected to the degree his identified needs are met.
- manager wants a quality CM, and the club signs Pogba
- managers wants a quality RB, club signs a teenager with barely any first team football
- managers wants a quality and experienced CB, club signs no one
Those are different levels of 'backing' and depending on how crucial the need was, could have different level of consequences on the pitch.
The more important question is how important were those signings to the plans of the manager
He was doing well up to last season imo, but (and I have said this repeatedly) sacrificed team performance to make a point earlier this season and that is on him.
No he does not - he sign players he feels are worth signing at the asking price. He signed Matic for 40m despite his age, agreed to pay Sanchez a ridiculous salary, and signed Lukaku for 75-90m despite his limitations. He also declined Perisic because he didnt think he was worth what inter demanded.
Ed controls sales and we are still waiting for him to sell Darmian. If we dont have space on the squad, it cos Ed failed in selling the players he had put on inflated wages and/or is asking too much more than anyone thinks the players are worth.
So please stop trying to paint a false impression of our transfers just so you can make mourinho look bad. Mourinho has his strengths and faults but firing him is not going to fix the bigger underlying problem that has persisted for 3 managers and will continue with the 4th if not addressed. But many are too focused on their hate for Mourinho.
For me, the question of Mourinho being fired and/or who is the next manager should be left for a DoF who can handle this side of the business better than Ed has been doing.
Its insanity to be doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
The issue is that you think the summer failure lies solely with Ed, when actually both Ed Jose and other at the club are culpable. If you read my post I already stated that we need to fix things off the pitch.
However this is a thread about Jose and whether he should stay or not, I'm not talking about our league position either. We have signed 11 players yet can't name 2 of them who is performing to the required level, or even their best level. That to me is a serious problem that has nothing to do with Ed and more to do with Jose (not getting the best from the players and also deciding to bring certain players in like Matic) and the scouting team (if the players are not of the right quality thats on them and Jose also)
Ed is culpable for hiring them all
At this point, I can only laugh at all the same points repeated again and again which are so far from reality and close to fantasy.- Status