Thats not true.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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Thats not true.
How am I speaking in generalities? I could not have been more specific.
Klopp has lost 6 out of 7 cup finals.
Mourinho has won 11 out of 14 cup finals.
You do the math.
I don't think there is any circumstance ignored. You have two managers taking over two big clubs, both of which were need in a major overhaul by way of talent. At least Klopp had Coutinho to begin with, Jose didn't have a single world class outfield talent to inherit with Man Utd.
Again, you can't claim to care about progression and then go on to ignore the progression of both managers during their respective tenures with the club. You seem to care about form more than anything else. Klopp is currently in a better domestic moment than Jose is, and that appears to weigh more than Jose consistently finishing above Klopp domestically last season.
And yeah, we lost to Sevilla in a knock out. Klopp himself lost to them in a Europa Final. Klopp has also lost to Red Star fecking Belgrade in a match that was inexcusably worse than any of our performances in Europe under Jose. What's the context there? You can spin context on anything - like Jose not having Faria by his side and instead handing the training reigns to Carrick and McKenna with different philosophies. Or Jose missing Herrera, Fellaini, Pogba and Bailey for months at a go last year and still finishing 2nd. There's no point in nit picking though because both managers have had tough and testing times.
At the end of the day though, the win% isn't massively different and both have their pro's and con's.
Let's be a little more objective about it. Let's lay it all out.
Klopp
1. 2015/16
Joined - October 8th, 2015 sitting 10th in the table
League - Finished in 8th place with 60 points. If you only include the time he spent with Liverpool, he had the 7th best record when you exclude Rodger's performance.
Cups - Lost in EL final and League Cup Final
Transfers: 6.30mil
2. 2016/17
League - Finished in 4th place
Cups -
Transfers: 79.9mil
3. 2017/18
League - Finished in 4th
Cups - Lost in CL final
Transfers: 167.8mil
4. 2018/19
League - Currently in 2nd place
Cups -
Transfers: 182.2mil
Total Transfer Spend: 436.2mil
Mourinho
1. 2015/16
League - Finished in 16th place when he got sacked.
Cups -
Transfers: 78.9mil
2. 2016/17
League - Finished in 6th place
Cups- Won EL and League Cup
Transfers: 185mil
3. 2017/18
League - Finished in 2nd place
Cups -
Transfers: 164.4mil
4. 2018/19
League - Currently in 8th place
Cups -
Transfers: 82.7mil
Total Transfer spend: 511mil including Chelsea. If Excluding Chelsea, it's 432.1mil spent.
Either way, based on Klopp's time in England he has done much better than Mourinho and if we're limiting it to Mourinho's time here, Klopp is still likely to do better in the league. Both have spent incredibly similar if we're just including money spent at both clubs. Now it's up to you to decide if the EL cup and League Cup is worth more than better league campaigns, more goals, and a CL finals appearance. I personally don't, but hey that's a matter of opinion.
*I didn't include the money Rodger spent for the 2015/16 season because it was not money Klopp spent. Similarly I didn't include United's money spent for the 2015/16 for Mourinho and instead opted for Chelsea. I felt this was generous for Mourinho because United spent like double what Mou spent at Chelsea, and much more than Rodgers spent for Klopp. Also didn't use net spend because I was throwing a bone to Mourinho. Either way you look at it, it's impossible to conclude Klopp had spent more money for it to even matter in this discussion.
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"mental fortitude required to cross the finish line"
"complete and utter capitulation"
"serial loser"
Past success doesn't ensure future success and cup finals are one-off matches that are completely unrelated. I've already said this but somehow I have the feeling you're going to reply with the often recycled "winning mentality" and "serial winner" narrative. Sigh...
Of course I care about progression. I'm taking into account recent history (last season to this season), but for some odd reason you want us to start 2 seasons in the past, yet at the same time not really factoring in this season b/c it's "too early". Why should put more value on what happened from 2 seasons ago until now than what happened from last season until now? I honestly don't get it.
Missing your most important players isn't nitpicking (losing Coutinho to Barca and losing Salah for the final). These are a factors that directly effect the amount of talent on the pitch. Not even sure the point you're making with Faria.
Even after losing to Red Star it's clear their squad is better, so it isn't just about individual wins and loses (which is more or less the entire point)
At the end of the day, if we watch both teams objectively it's clear which team is better coached.
I believe your understanding of the term 'generalities' is somewhat confused. Moving on.
You're right, past success does not ensure future success, but it is most certainly a strong indicator. Plus it looks great on your CV.
Jose Mourinho was only considered for the United job due to his frankly outstanding record for winning things. His brand of football is dire, his attitude equally so, but his record for winning trophies at all costs is without question - at least it was before he took the United job.
He was recruited for one purpose and one purpose only, namely to bring success back to the club in the form of a league title. Things have not gone as anticipated, unfortunately, yet he's still won more cup finals during his tenure at United than Klopp has at Liverpool. Fact.
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So assuming both managers don't win the league title or CL, you would prefer Mourinho's time in charge than say Klopp? Because I wouldn't. I frankly don't care for the league cup or EL. Klopp's sides are more entertaining and at this point it's likely he has better league finishes than Mourinho. Combine those two things and it's not a question that I would prefer Klopp.
Haven't we got rid of Jose yet? this international break was the ideal time, Zidane has been viewing property in Alderly Edge so it must be after Christmas then before the January transfer window.
Welcome to United ZeeZee
Welcome to United ZeeZee
I'm sorry you don't know what a generality or cliche is, nor can realize why your using one. Let me know if you need me to send you dictionary.com link.
So the so a CV matters more than current performance? You're just proving my point.
You aren't telling me anything I didn't already know or refuting anything I've said.
Comparing their respective tenures purely in terms of success, then Jose wins quite comfortably. Anything else, well, it's all relative.
I asked you what you preferred. Klopp likely finishes with better league campaigns in 2 of the last 3 seasons than Mourinho. Klopp has his side playing far more entertaining football. That or the league cup and EL title? Because I frankly don't care about those two titles. They're great when you win them, but not bothered when you don't.
Which do you prefer?
I still don’t get it. Kyle Walker was there for everyone. £50m infact. If Jose wanted him he should have got him. There was also Kieran Tripper up for grabs if we decided to do a little scouting. But we decided not to get a RB. So who’s fault is that?
The left back I agree.. as the board have quite obviously put a bloke on that due to Shaw. But.... we’ve invested a lot in him and he’s not crap.
Mate, please stop harping on about generalities and cliches, you clearly have no conception of their respective definitions.
Stick to the topic.
What is the point you're trying to make, do you even have a point?
Well let’s just keep him and hope we end up turning into an Arsenal fa Cup and scrapping fourth side.
Look, I'm as Jose out as Jose out gets, but there is no way on gods green earth I am ever going to choose a Liverpool manager over the current United manager.
Obviously, now quit asking me
That is not what I'm saying at all. Read up.
This Liverpool fan has got me arguing in favour of Jose Mourinho. That is unforgivable.
What I quoted fits in quite nicely into this list, but I'll leave it at that. I can still give you the link.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1339772-the-30-most-played-out-sports-cliches
In regards to the main topic, the point is it's absurd to value a CV over current performance and progression. You just rattled off why Mourinho was hired and gave the same "he's won more Mickey Mouse cups" excuse.
So you just admitted that being objective isn't your goal. Then why are you even discussing this then? You clearly will never say Klopp is better because you hate Liverpool.Look, I'm as Jose out as Jose out gets, but there is no way on gods green earth I am ever going to choose a Liverpool manager over the current United manager.
Obviously, now quit asking me
I won't ask you again, so I'll just state my preference again. I personally choose the guy whose given his club 181 pts and 185 goals over the manager that has given his club 170 points, 142 goals, a league cup and EL title.
I don't think you do care about progession. You've just said you want to look at the current season rather than the whole picture. I want to look at both managers when they joined the club, the state of their squad inherited, the amount spent and whether they have made tangible progress season upon season. I cannot look at recent events and conclude Klopp is king because it's 1/3rd of the way through the season and Klopp has enjoyed a fantastic run of results, but he's had 3 wins in his last 9 - all being against the bottom 3 in the league + Red Star at home. He is yet to be properly tested by a Wolves, Bournemouth, Everton all of whom are round the corner. Mourinho meanwhile has a chance to steady a broken ship with only Liverpool/Arsenal as tough fixtures in 2018 followed by much easier teams (he gets to play Palace, Huddersfield, Fulham among other fodders at the bottom of the league)
In other words, there is still a lot to play for before concluding Klopp is a better manager than Mourinho re. this season alone. I choose to look at how each season started and ended and judge progress. Outright ignoring what they've done season on season is a bit ludicrous if you're trying to judge progression.
Moreover, you want to look at missing important pieces and claim it's not nitpicking and yet you are confused when I mention losing Faria this season, who was instrumental in Jose's training, methods and approach to the game? Players do get injured. Jose lost key players for months at a go too, shit happens but there is no point nit picking about it.
I'm a Liverpool fan b/c I think Klopp is the better manager
How so? Since Jose returned to England he's won the league with Chelsea, and won the Europa Cup and Carling Cup with United and brought them to a higher points tally than Klopp has managed to do with Liverpool despite a head start of 6 months. Klopp has also won nothing in 4 years.
Their win %'s are similar with Jose having 59% and Klopp 53%.
I really don't care for your preference, it's irrelevant.
This thread has gone way off track.
Klopp wasn't in England when Mourinho won the title. Klopp got there in the middle of the 2015/16 season, the season where Mourinho was in 16th and got sacked. Klopp had a better league season in 2017, and Mou had a better season in 2018 going by points. Right now Klopp is ahead by 10 points so it's very likely he ends up with a better season again.
Which is why I asked for your preference in the two performances. I only voiced my preference because it's not some difficult to understand proposition. You essentially said "to hell with answering that question, I will never say a Liverpool manager is preferred because I hate Liverpool." Still no idea why you're even here if nothing will change only because of what club each is in charge of.
OK - scratch the Chelsea season.
So you think Klopp is better, I think Jose is better and there's a case for both opinions. Shall we leave it there? It seems this thread is derailed enough!
Yeah as I think doing better in the league since 2016 and playing more entertaining football outweighs the EL and League Cup.
I don't see how the thread is derailed btw. This all stems from the transfer spend you compared the two managers with earlier. Klopp is currently doing better with the same amount of money spent.
Well, I didn't say that.
So I'm taking into account roughly 1.5 seasons as opposed to 2.5. So no, not only this season.
And I'm not asking you to conclude anything based on 1/3 of the season. Given how United played in the beginning of last season, to second half of last season, and now in the first half of the first season, there as been a downward trend. For United the exact opposite. Not just in form but results (even though the form and style of play are infinitely more worrying). I don't think Mourinho is a terrible manager, just not a good PL manager for top side. And yes, I don't give 2 fecks about his CV. I just look at the quality of play I watch weekly with players like Pogba, Sanchez, and Martial (I would even add Rashford) all in the side and underperforming.
We can't compare losing an ass man to losing an outfield player. Come on. Klopp lost his ass man as well, but I wouldn't use that as a game changing circumstance.
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Jose has won more in his time at United than Klopp has at Liverpool, that's a fact. So did LVG for that matter. It speaks volumes that two of the worst managers in the history of our club were more successful than Klopp has been for Liverpool.
I never said I valued past successes over current performance, you just made that up. There is a multitude of variables that need to be considered when undertaking such a monumental task as recruiting a manager worthy of United, and a healthy CV is certainly among them. That's all I'm saying.
This the Jose Mourinho thread, the Klopp thread is in the Football Forum.
I want Jose out of our club. Simple as that.
I'm a Liverpool fan b/c I think Klopp is the better manager
You are a Liverpool fan. That is just about as obvious as it gets.
Why even deny it?
These managers aren't isolated. They're rightly compared to other managers based on a number of things like transfers, league performance, etc...
It doesn't speak to anything except a top red mentality that the United manager must always be deemed better than the Liverpool regardless of reality. He's won the League Cup and the Europa League while playing Moyes-level football. Yay.
You clearly made it a point he's won 11 of 14 cup finals (even though many were 5+ years ago) and you pointed out he has a better CV. If you honestly think Mourinho is a better manager currently then I don't know what you expect me to think.
Neither manager has brought the league title home to their respective clubs. Both managers have failed.
You got me. When in doubt of the meaning of generality and cliche call them a Liverpool fan. Can't believe I walked into that...
Personally never thought i'd see the day a Manchester United manager would be praised to the hills for winning the EL and league cup by beating the likes of Southampton and Ajax. Then again never thought I'd see the day where United fans would be so proud of coming 2nd, by 19 on top of that.
To anyone with the will to check it was. Their superior structure brought them De Bruyne and Sterling and Fernandinho, one fantastic player and two good ones made better by playing in an even better system.
There were plenty of duds aswell including Mangala, Bony, Jovetic, Fernando, Negredo, Navas, Garcia, Rodwell, Sinclair..
I'm not disputing that they were setting pieces in place for Pep, I'm disputing your claim that their scouting and deal-making is so superior to ours. They over-paid plenty over the years for players who didn't seem properly scouted at all.
You think we have unlimited cash for every window? When you have to sign a player like Pogba a lot of your budget is gone.
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You simply don't get it.
Any comparison between Klopp and Jose is absolutely irrelevant and in no way shape or form does it benefit the discussion. Your obsession with Klopp is disturbing.
You think we have unlimited cash for every window? When you have to sign a player like Pogba a lot of your budget is gone.
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This guy is Liverpool to his very core.
He doesn't even hide it very well
I'm too drunk for this shite. At first it was comical, now it's getting tedious.
Go read a dictionary, mate
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