The best player have that status based on their actual contribution, it's not based on their ability to contribute, not on their past, not on their potential but on how much and how well they are actually contributing.
The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked
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The best player have that status based on their actual contribution, it's not based on their ability to contribute, not on their past, not on their potential but on how much and how well they are actually contributing.
English isn't my native / main language but is circumlocution the right word for this?
Other than on paper, where being a better player than Miki Sanchez has in name improved us, do we look and perform better to you?
Can't you see the irony?
My argument was based on the fact that Toby made a mistake, which was the main reason Tottenham conceded and you're discarding my based in fact argument for your hypothetical "what could have been" explanation. To make things even more ridiculous even then Toby himself could have made a better choice, pass it instantly, hoof it etc.
In case you haven't watched Toby before, playing from the back due to his great ability on the ball is probably his best suit…
This and that part where you said something that playing out from the back isn't Toby's strong suit, is a definite proof you're either suffering from delusion or you're a WUM.
They didn't have that before Pep arrived despite the power structure having been set in place since 2012. It's easier to make good deals when you're guided by a clear footballing philosophy and don't have a volatile manager on your ass blowing up every time he can't have it his way.
It's just about making it to the end of the season and him leaning by 'mutual consent'
I think we will see drag along for the rest of season with spells of form here and there but generally being outclassed by the better football sides.
Probably a trophyless season too. Think the club should start planning for next season. A DOF and new manager being top of the shopping list.
I think we will see drag along for the rest of season with spells of form here and there but generally being outclassed by the better football sides.
Probably a trophyless season too. Think the club should start planning for next season. A DOF and new manager being top of the shopping list.
Of course it's related to Mourinho: he's the one who's spent a ton since arriving. If Ed's spending meant Mourinho wasn't given a license to break the bank then you'd be correct, but Jose's spent more than enough to have us competing for the title. He broke the bank on Pogba, who hasn't as of yet justified the amount we spent on him. He spent a ton on Lukaku with the aim of having him as one of the world's top strikers who could fire us to the title. Lukaku's - again - not justified such a tag. Mourinho signed these players and ultimately if they haven't performed, he's at fault.
Mourinho may not have gotten everyone he wanted but all managers have to adapt. When Fergie won three successive titles between 06-09, Chelsea generally had more money than us. But Fergie adapted around that by spending very little on players like Ronaldo, VDS, Evra and Vidic, thereby managing to overcome our financial disadvantages.
Yes they did. It’s no secret they planned for peps arrival long before he got there.
Jose hasn’t spent a single penny. You’ve got this round the wrong way. Jose gives Ed a list of names he wants. It’s Ed’s job to get the best deal. When was the last time ed got a good deal with a player? How man average players are on stupid amounts of money? That’s been the case since he took over. He gave Rooney a feck ton of money just because he still had a name, his abilities had long long departed. And he’s still doing it. He’s still over paying on transfers and wages. The why is my opinion, but based on the Rooney transfer he still thinks he needs to throw money around to prove something. Like everyone thinks United was done after saf left, and he’s proving them wrong because “look at these players we got!”.
If we had got morata, we would have been paying as 20 million more for him than Chelsea did. That’s the power of Ed’s transfer abilities. Speaking of Chelsea they said they would match our lukaku bid with much less of the money going to lukakaus agent and more going to everton. There’s also a rumour that most of the pogba money went to the agent, not Juve. So can Ed close a deal? Or does he just line he pockets of agents to get deals done at silly prices?
Regardless of any of that, ed controls the money. Jose is in charge of the names he wants. No manager spends money, ever.
And a lot of the names he wants haven't been good enough, or have been alright but not of the standard you want from a side wanting to win league titles.
Veto them and suggest certain criteria for the manager in that position to give you other names that fits them. Not to mention, the list was put very early in summer so Ed, before even negotiating with anyone, could have sit with Mourinho and told him "Listen Jose, yes we need additions in this position but I feel the names suggested will be somewhat more expensive for their age, do you have other names that are younger ?", then Mourinho would have either modified his list or refuse and decide to leave early in summer. Both situations would have had better outcome than what happened.
What we did is we vetoed the signings and decided to not buy anyone "because Varane isn't available" and kept the money in Glazers. How can anyone be content of this way of management ?
We're probably the first fans of any club to be happy our board kept the money in their pocket instead of reinforcing the team.
Next season when we struggle to buy anything more than 2 players again for the new manager because the prices went over the top for any player and we're refusing to adapt we'll see the new excuses for this.
Their recruitment between 2012 when Soriano and Begiristain joined and the appointment of Pep in 2016 was just erratic as ours has been.
When you are able to spend 250 million on your defence you are unlikely to blow up.
This Ed vs Mourinho narrative needs to stop. Does anyone really believe that they are butting heads at Carrington about what players we are going to pursue?
Its much more likely that they (or Mourinho and Woodward´s extension) actually have a good relationship and that try agree upon our transfer targets.
Woodward isnt even involved in transfers anymore if one has a slight insight in United nowadays.
How much do you think those players Pep spent that money on are worth today?
Don't know, what's your point?
If we asked Jose when he signed, his dream list of players do you think what we bought would be on it? He said Varane was the best defender about 5 years back. We all know the great players we'd be better with. As does Ed I'm sure as most 12 year olds do. We still have to get in who we can and we've done that within whatever restraints are on us financially and then getting the players to join us and not teams doing far better than us. I completely agree with your sentiment but still none of these are anyones dream signings. They are a symptom of where we are. Players who have the potential to improve us but whether they do is more of a gamble than buying the A listers.
How about the 180 million we've spent on midfield?
Our squad was in a wreck from top to bottom. Well apart from the goalkeeper. 180 million on the midfield over 3 years. Why have we only spent 80 million on our defence over 3 summer windows? Imagine the state of our midfield had we not spent 100 million on Pogba.
My point is that its not spending money.
Its investing, and to answer my own question those players asset worth is more than when City bought them.
And thats why this continous harping about that net spend or spending on transfer fees transferwise is somehow important has nothing to do with Ed or the Glazers being prepared to spend money.
Literally still dont understand the point you are trying to make.
We'd spend 250m on our defence if the contracts of Young, Valencia, Jones, Rojo, Darmian ended at the same time just like it happened for City.
You make it out like City made extravagant upgrades on their defence but they made it out of need not of adding more players. They had no fullbacks and bought Mendy, Danilo, Walker at very good prices. Laporte and Stones are pretty good buys too considering the going rate in market these days.
Our problem is Mourinho not picking better choice of CBs, we could have easily gotten Laporte as he had a release clause but he wasn't in Mourinho's radar. All of Mourinho's CB choices this season were unattainable.
I'm not sure we have a midfield even with Pogs. As a unit its pretty non existent that thats the important thing. There are midfields below us in the league who perform better together for me. He's started having success on the left with Martial in final third but apart from that he is miles off where we need him to be in terms of connecting with his fellow midfielders. That may be linked to the others in midfield not complementing his game quite like the juve individuals mind. Is he elevating those around him? Not many.
Pep would have binned the entire defence regardless, you're being naive. Walker and Mendy at 50 million was a lot when they purchased them. Danilo was bought for 30 million merely as a back up. We have paid 20 million for a young RB and still have Valencia and Young at fullback. You are deluded if you think this would be the case at City. They'd have paid 150 million on new fullbacks, which is what they did.
Laporte also cost the same amount as Lindelof and Bailly combined. When Mourinho asked for a 50 million+ CB this summer, he did not get one.
If our squad was a wreck, what was Liverpools?
I'd direct those questions to the manager.
Why are you mentioning them as if they had won something or finished very high in the table ? Last I checked their table finish under Klopp is 8th, 4th and 4th while winning nothing. If a manager does that here people will be calling for his head already.
They're only starting to look like a proper team after selling Coutinho and splashing the cash last 2 summers.
Liverpool have been the best team in the PL and Europe for the past 6 years if you ask their fans. We get a result away at Juve I think no other team has beat them there for 15 years? On here we were still awful and lucky......We play in an environment so different any other club. We buy players in a market other clubs don't experience. We have to cope like we did previously but without SAF....It's a losing battle.
I'm unsure when I look at Liverpool's squad vs United's at the time Mourinho took over.
We had a more expensive squad but there was a lot of dead-weight which arguably needed just as much work. They had Coutinho and Firminho by way of high potential talent and then some average players across the park with a seriously poor CB and LB situation (I think Clyne was already RB when Klopp came?).
We had no established striker, a very raw looking winger set up (none of which were right wingers), no midfield outside of Herrera and Fellaini, Blind at CB and fullbacks that were over 32.
Both teams needed a lot of work. I think Liverpool has spent far better than United since.
We had a more expensive squad but there was a lot of dead-weight which arguably needed just as much work. They had Coutinho and Firminho by way of high potential talent and then some average players across the park with a seriously poor CB and LB situation (I think Clyne was already RB when Klopp came?).
We had no established striker, a very raw looking winger set up (none of which were right wingers), no midfield outside of Herrera and Fellaini, Blind at CB and fullbacks that were over 32.
Both teams needed a lot of work. I think Liverpool has spent far better than United since.
Mangala and Demichells was Kompany’s partners. I’ll say there defence was a wreck. Can we just admit Jose blew the money.
Guess how much Pep’s mistakes cost him? About £30m. Let’s clock up Mourinho’s.
Liverpool has also bought £410m worth of new players since 2016, more than us. Their net spend is only looking better than ours because they have managed to make other clubs pay insane amounts of deadwood (Benteke £30m, Sakho £25m, Ibe £15m) and Moutinho to Barcelona.
I think Pep was allowed to spend a lot more on each defender, meaning his chances of a feck-up were less.
Kyle Walker would 100% be on United's radar to replace Valencia. But were we going to spunk £50m on him at the time? No. Pep was able to give £50m for Mendy, Walker, Laporte and Stones each. Jose looks to be operating on a lower budget in that area and on different agendas. Woodward is deciding who is and who isn't good enough for the United brand whilst Pep and Tixi are working well together from purely football terms.
I hate looking at net spend anyway. Judging Jose by how well he sells players he never bought just sounds bizzare.
He's come from further back than Mourinho, kept Liverpool stable and got them to a champions league final kicking out a team we're supposed to believe are untouchable, showing progression with every season and are currently very much in the title race. He also got them to an Europa league final which he was as unlucky not to win as we were lucky to win. All while playing a way more entertaining brand of football.
Why shouldn't I mention Klopp and Liverpool?
And we're currently in 8th spot, behibd Watford, Bournemouth and Arsenal with a negative goal difference all while having spent 380, what's your point?
I'm confused, what is the point you are making exactly? That Jurgen Klopp has advanced more than Jose Mourinho? He's had 6 months longer in the job (joining January before the season Mourinho came) and no silverware. Jose has 2 cups, 3 cup finals and took us to 81 points last season which was 10pt improvement from his debut year. I think we are progressing under him too solely from results. Obviously not playing style, I agree on this.
But Klopp I feel isn't consistent enough in the second half of seasons. He almost finished 5th on the final day last year.
I get his team generally looks a lot better at the moment but we are only 1/3rd of the way through so we should wait and see how it pans out.
They've taken a few risks and they've paid off whereas our transfers seemingly just keep on failing to address real issues within the team. We were heavily linked with Mane at the time of LVG and there was a lot of whinging that he wasn't good enough to be a United player. Salah was doing really well in Italy but there was a risk he'd flop like he did at Chelsea. Both transfers were a big success but knowing our luck they would have both turned out like morgan schneiderlin if they had ended up here.
Yeah - and I think our general set up of scouts and the lack of a DOF will hinder any manager going forward. Whether it's Jose/Zidane/Jardim/whoever.
2 Cups that aren't exactly what Mourinho was signed up for. It's fine to say Mourinho has been more impressive due to silverware, but you also bring up 3 cup finals and didn't list them for Klopp. Klopp clearly prioritized the CL to end last season same way Mourinho prioritized the EL to finish 6th 2 seasons ago.
First he didn't came from "further back" than us. Have you watched LVG's last season or actually tried to put the 2 squads in front of you to compare ? Both were very nearly at the same problems. The squad LVG left had 2 new youngsters as its best players, no at all striker upfront, no proper midfield with Rooney getting shoehorned there to cover that weakness, Smalling as our only reliable defender, no proper fullbacks. It was pretty much a fecked up squad. Liverpool's squad wasn't further back, neither forward too, it was at the same spot regarding the persons imo.
Second, we did good and steady progress under Mourinho in his first 2 seasons, won 2 trophies in his first one, and finished second in his second season while reaching another final. It's only that last summer and the dilemma of Mourinho and Woodward that made us go backward again.
Comparing what both did, I absolutely find nothing to suggest that Klopp did more progress when it comes to results than what Mourinho did, again according to results and results only.
Klopp : Finished 8th, 4th, 4th, lost 3 finals, overall won nothing.
Mourinho : Finished 6th, 2nd, won 2 finals, lost 1, over all 2 trophies.
Klopp plays better football than Mourinho, we all know that but Mourinho has always been about playing ugly and grinding wins to secure results. In terms of results, he did a very decent job, not great but very decent, especially if you consider the results Klopp achieved are good or acceptable.
If Klopp did exactly the same results he did with Liverpool last 3 seasons here, our fans would be calling for his head and would be asking for a big name to start winning things before we become the new Liverpool or Arsenal, and that our ambitions should be higher than bottling a final and how "the mighty have fallen, getting happy because we lost a CL final and finished 4th ffs" and "when the hell is good football enough for United, we want to win trophies ffs!"..etc. All this would have happened and I ensure you it would have happened. Grass just looks greener on the other side.
Liverpool this season are finally starting to look like a proper team once they sold Coutinho and used the money to splash the cash on defense and GK who were their main problems and the thing that prevented them from challenging for a high league finish or win any thing significant, so you can't keep mentioning as an example of improving what you have..etc. They gave up and decided to spend at the end to achieve results.
I didn't use 3 cup finals for Klopp because 0/3 isn't worthy of praise compared to 2 out of 3, is it? Both managers were brought in to bring glory to their respective clubs. Klopp went out and promised a title in 3 years and can't deliver a tin cup in 4 (probably 5 this season if his FA Cup run ends early and has one bad result in the Champions League).
Jose was signed for even more. Specifically major honours, like winning the league. But you aren't winning the league when the top team spends around 200m more than you. It just isn't happening, and City will run away with it this year too. I don't think that has anything to do with Jose or Klopp.
You can only expect us to keep challenging on all fronts the best we can, until we spend as much or spend smarter. I don't think we will do either any time soon, and we had a shit start to the season.
Yeah their defence needed upgrading. So they paid the 250 million+ to fix it. Why have we only spent 80 million our defence over 3 summers? When it is clearly not good enough? When we have Valencia and Young at fullback?
They have won feck all, finished behind us last season and cannot beat us when we play each other.
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