The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[Chesterlestreet]

People don't necessarily support a general back-or-sack policy: it's about Jose specifically. From the viewpoint of most United fans Jose only makes sense as a short-term appointment: win big quickly, that's what he's known for. As some kind of half-arsed long-term «coach» he makes no sense at all. You either believe in his tried and tested methods - or you look for a different type of manager. Retaining him without backing him fully (within a budget, of course) is bizarre.

What would the thinking be? He's going to transform into someone who just «gets on with the job»? Based on what? Him «getting on with the job» so far has looked more like him sabotaging his own team in order to make a point about not getting the defender(s) he wanted. Which is insane - but precisely the sort of insanity you expect from him.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

I agree. I'm not in either camp when it comes to 'back him or sack him'. I hate him as the manager of United but you still need to give him time. No one is asking him to win the title that people are suggesting to give him an unlimited transfer budget, the goal should be to get into the top 4 right now and we definitely have squad to be there. If he doesn't do that then I'm sorry but he has no excuses.

It's not as if Mourinho hasn't been given a large transfer fund since he has come, he simply hasn't made any of the transfers work and that's why we currently see ourselves where we are in the table. Therefore, as crazy as it sounds to say this about a manager who has won as much as he has, he has to prove himself again this season before he can be given a large transfer fund. If he can get this team into the top 4, then we can think of keeping him and giving him a large fund.

It's crazy to say that Mourinho hasn't been backed till now, if that were the case we wouldn't be seeing two 90 MP+ players, one player on a massive contract and other multiple signings in the team. The problem is that Mourinho simply has not performed up to expectations with those group of players so I completly understand if the board is reluctant to give him funds. Get into the top four then we can talk about funds next season.

That is a weird logic - get into top 4 before getting a large transfer fund.He finished 2nd last season and what did he get in return?

 

[roonster09]

I agree. I'm not in either camp when it comes to 'back him or sack him'. I hate him as the manager of United but you still need to give him time. No one is asking him to win the title that people are suggesting to give him an unlimited transfer budget, the goal should be to get into the top 4 right now and we definitely have squad to be there. If he doesn't do that then I'm sorry but he has no excuses.

It's not as if Mourinho hasn't been given a large transfer fund since he has come, he simply hasn't made any of the transfers work and that's why we currently see ourselves where we are in the table. Therefore, as crazy as it sounds to say this about a manager who has won as much as he has, he has to prove himself again this season before he can be given a large transfer fund. If he can get this team into the top 4, then we can think of keeping him and giving him a large fund.

It's crazy to say that Mourinho hasn't been backed till now, if that were the case we wouldn't be seeing two 90 MP+ players, one player on a massive contract and other multiple signings in the team. The problem is that Mourinho simply has not performed up to expectations with those group of players so I completly understand if the board is reluctant to give him funds. Get into the top four then we can talk about funds next season.

Yeah agree with most of this. Few Jose fans are just searching for new excuses every day. If Spending alone makes team better, wonder why we are so low in the table with laughable GD.

People point out how good City, Liverpool, Chelsea players are but forget these players weren't so highly rated before Pep and Klopp started working with them. They just want new signings and then later complain how we need time as team is new and needs to gel, year later we need new players again and the cycle repeats.

No one even cares about coaching and why our players look so clueless on the field, they don't know what to do next, there is no system to bring best out of players. Just go behind and desperate mode is on.

Jose alone isn't responsible for this mess but what we see on field is how they train and it's not good. Like players like Terry and other managers said "you play as you train"

 

[redIndianDevil]

People don't necessarily support a general back-or-sack policy: it's about Jose specifically. From the viewpoint of most United fans Jose only makes sense as a short-term appointment: win big quickly, that's what he's known for. As some kind of half-arsed long-term «coach» he makes no sense at all. You either believe in his tried and tested methods - or you look for a different type of manager. Retaining him without backing him fully (within a budget, of course) is bizarre.

What would the thinking be? He's going to transform into someone who just «gets on with the job»? Based on what? Him «getting on with the job» so far has looked more like him sabotaging his own team in order to make a point about not getting the defender(s) he wanted. Which is insane - but precisely the sort of insanity you expect from him.

Even for a short term appointment you can't expect to get him any signing he names. Some we can get some we can't. Look at the CBs we tried to sign, Maguire(just signed a huge contract with no release clause, City couldn't even get a want-away Mahrez from them last season), Alderweireld(does it make sense to spend 70m on a guy who will be available for 30m in six months' time, and we are dealing with a cash strapped Levy here), Boateng(didn't want to come), Godin(didn't want to come and used us for a better contract at Atletico) and finally Yerry Mina(the guy that cannot start at Everton, can you imagine how pathetic we would have looked to get him with huge agent fees and one who is not better than any of our current CBs). In situations like this the board cannot do anything and Mourinho should have got on with his job instead of moaning on and on and wasting our start of the season.

 

[Fracture90]

It's an opinion that Neville has and I share it. You are aware your opinion isnt gospel either?

Van Gaal and Mourinho's styles only became obsolete when they had to manage us.

And I pointed out to you that Neville can be wrong, very much wrong, after all he's regarded as one of those not very good pundits.

LVG style was obsolete long before, this isn't the same LVG that had young Ajax team flying high in the 90's. He was ousted from Bayern not so long ago and he grafted 3rd place with Netherlands pretty much. The fact he's still not appointed by any other big club after more than 2 years is really telling.

Mourinho's style getting old coincides with the rise of attacking, possession heavy football, which thrives on teams setting up super defensively and clustering inside their 16 yeard box, Mourinho's speciality.

 

[Fracture90]

1. Were the other two passes i raised better choices or not? neither of those choices would have put the receiving player under immediate pressure like the pass did to Toby.

2. So Toby is bad on the ball - is that your main measurement for the quality of a CB?

1) oh so now it's not an actual mistake from the initial pass maker but rather his choice to pass it to Toby who was in a perfectly good position to receive the ball and to forward it elsewhere? But since Toby has bottled it by his poor touch, poor defensive awareness and poor pass towards Lloris in this instance, it's not his fault, he shouldn't have been on the receiving end of that pass to being with?
Going by that logic when Lukaku misses a sitter it's not his fault, it's fault of the player that has passed the ball to him…

2) No it is not but everyone has a mistake in them, but considering our defense is under added pressure due to our tumescent tactics of cramping our whole team in our 1/4 of the pitch, how can you be so sure Toby would have been an instant success and would have improved us instantly?

Nothing against Toby and I do rate him but did it ever cross your mind that Toby is actually made to look better than he really is by Poch' style and system considering how he has failed in Simeone's system that was in that time much more similar to ours? Also keep in mind that according to reports signing "1 year left on his contract" Toby would have set us back some 70 million or Martial plus cash and he's soon to hit 30.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

...and Mourinho should have got on with his job instead of moaning on and on and wasting our start of the season.

Yes - but was he ever likely to do that?

Look, I'm not defending Jose here: his ridiculous «statement» line-ups would be reason enough for me to terminate his contract there and then.

This isn't about Jose as much as it is about the people who run this football club.

Jose's reactions and comments both during and immediately after the window indicate that he wasn't sufficiently backed from his point of view: what we think about his targets is beside the point. The Woodward briefing (and, again, Jose's comments/reactions) suggests that those targets were denied him, not that they weren't available for technical or financial reasons.

If you're Woodward, the options on the table are a) back him, because you think he can deliver something, even if it means paying through the teeth for feckin' Perisic or whoever - or b) sack him, because it's clear he won't deliver what you thought he would two years ago. Call it another failed experiment, try to get it right with the next guy (hopefully combined with bringing in a DoF, etc.).

What you don't do is to issue briefings to the media, sit back and hope Jose Mourinho will get on with the job like a good lad. What happened at the beginning of the season was 100% to be expected. And Woodward either didn't see it coming - or he doesn't give a shit, thinking (who knows, he may be right about that) we'll scrape 4th anyway with a bit of luck.

 

[fellaini's barber]

If we do sign Maguire for $60m this January and we're still losing matches @cheeky_backheel will still blame Woodward somehow like he's finally done with Matic. He'll claim Jose actually wanted Ramos but got the lump of shite, it's amazing the stuff he comes up with. It's gone from everyone being a Woodward signing to everyone we've signed being Jose's 3rd choice

 

[Fracture90]

You hoped Shaw got ripped apart by Hazard at the Bridge.

Which is another testament to his superior football knowledge...

Since Shaw's our LB and Hazard is their LW, they play on different sides of the pitch and Shaw's primarily dealing with Willian.

Back him or sack him is arguably the worst logic I have seen on Caf. It's like there is no middle ground, either sign the players manager asked for or just sack him, if every club follows that, no manager will survive the transfer market.

Couldn't agree more, for his loyalists is gotta be either / or.

But then again it's sort of a win on its own, considering they shifted the goalpost that much they're now entertaining the idea he should have been sacked.

People don't necessarily support a general back-or-sack policy: it's about Jose specifically. From the viewpoint of most United fans Jose only makes sense as a short-term appointment: win big quickly, that's what he's known for. As some kind of half-arsed long-term «coach» he makes no sense at all. You either believe in his tried and tested methods - or you look for a different type of manager. Retaining him without backing him fully (within a budget, of course) is bizarre.

Ohh buddy. When I remember how many were enamoured with him when he was first announced, you could see bunch of people praising his words of love towards the club, praising his demeanor and appearance like he's finally where he belongs. They were even those saying they can see him staying here long term, breaking his already established 3 season pattern, saying he's changed etc...

 

[roonster09]

You hoped Shaw got ripped apart by Hazard at the Bridge.

And arnautovic to smash Lindelof. It's not prediction, it's what he hoped.

I would love Hazard to torment the Solent Buttner and his new contract.

Teach our supporters a lesson.

Does anybody actually care?

It'd actually be funny if Arnautovic strung Lindelof up which is a very distinct possibility. It would double highlight Woodward's incompetence.

I hope he gives the useless Swede a meatephorical rodgering. Arnautovic not Woodward.

And this guys talks about what makes a proper fan. Tbh everyone knows he is a troll.

 

[Red_toad]

That is a weird logic - get into top 4 before getting a large transfer fund.He finished 2nd last season and what did he get in return?

Fred a 3rd choice keeper and a promising young defender. When looking to close the gap on city, who bought yet another quality winger that they didn’t really need. He wasn’t sufficiently backed.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Fred a 3rd choice keeper and a promising young defender. When looking to close the gap on city, who bought yet another quality winger that they didn’t really need. He wasn’t sufficiently backed.

This isn't his first summer ffs, it's also amazing how Pep had such an amazing summer than Jose despite signing one bloody player while we signed 3.

 

[roonster09]

This isn't his first summer ffs, it's also amazing how Pep had such an amazing summer than Jose despite signing one bloody player while we signed 3.

We also signed Sanchez in Jan, which is ignored everytime.

After watching our games, I don't know how anyone can bring in "money spent" argument, when after 2.5 years we look so poor and can barely string few passes together.

 

[Red_toad]

This isn't his first summer ffs, it's also amazing how Pep had such an amazing summer than Jose despite signing one bloody player while we signed 3.

Think you need to calm down mate. Simply stating facts for the summer transfer window. I don't believe that a club that wanted to retain its manager, financially supported it's manager sufficiently enough in the summer.

 

[hkjack]

Think you need to calm down mate. Simply stating facts for the summer transfer window. I don't believe that a club that wanted to retain its manager, financially supported it's manager sufficiently enough in the summer.

United is the second biggest spending (Net spending) club since Jose arrival, just after City. I don't think it is not sufficiently enough.

 

[Canagel]

Fred a 3rd choice keeper and a promising young defender. When looking to close the gap on city, who bought yet another quality winger that they didn’t really need. He wasn’t sufficiently backed.

can tthe team not improve without buying new players? Why haven't the players we had improve? Why haven't previous signings improved the team? If no why would new players make a difference? You have to ask yourself these question.
Pochettino was given NO money but his team are well clear of us in the table. We got Fred and Dalot and we've gone backwards?? So would a new centre back make us title contenders then?

 

[Ish]

We also signed Sanchez in Jan, which is ignored everytime.

After watching our games, I don't know how anyone can bring in "money spent" argument, when after 2.5 years we look so poor and can barely string few passes together.

It's clear that the money spent argument is only used in defence of Jose....but is conveniently ignored when compared to every other team around us, barring City.

 

[devilish]

Jose is not good for the club. His football is outdated, our football has regressed and this mentality of buying players only to forget about them in a couple of months is pure lunacy. Having said that the buck doesn't stop with Mourinho. We need to build the football side of our club starting with a joint CEO who tackles football matters, a top DOF, a top head of youth academy and a top head of recruitment. The club need to be able to handle a huge staff turnover for at least a couple of years and it can't afford being taken for a ride by the manager or the agents.

 

[Siorac]

Yes - but was he ever likely to do that?

Look, I'm not defending Jose here: his ridiculous «statement» line-ups would be reason enough for me to terminate his contract there and then.

This isn't about Jose as much as it is about the people who run this football club.

Jose's reactions and comments both during and immediately after the window indicate that he wasn't sufficiently backed from his point of view: what we think about his targets is beside the point. The Woodward briefing (and, again, Jose's comments/reactions) suggests that those targets were denied him, not that they weren't available for technical or financial reasons.

If you're Woodward, the options on the table are a) back him, because you think he can deliver something, even if it means paying through the teeth for feckin' Perisic or whoever - or b) sack him, because it's clear he won't deliver what you thought he would two years ago. Call it another failed experiment, try to get it right with the next guy (hopefully combined with bringing in a DoF, etc.).

What you don't do is to issue briefings to the media, sit back and hope Jose Mourinho will get on with the job like a good lad. What happened at the beginning of the season was 100% to be expected. And Woodward either didn't see it coming - or he doesn't give a shit, thinking (who knows, he may be right about that) we'll scrape 4th anyway with a bit of luck.

See now those are actually good points. When put like that, even I am willing to agree with the 'back him or sack him' logic though only when applied to Mourinho.

Having said that, we really should have just sacked him after that post-Sevilla press conference. And we shouldn't have extended his contract in January, obviously.

 

[Siorac]

I said the starting 11 on Sunday isn't much better than the West Ham line up that beat us if you read properly. Do you think the starting 11 on Sunday is top 4 quality?

It was far better than bloody West Ham! Can't believe I actually have to debate this. West Ham are 13th. They finished 13th last season. I understand, yes, you do not rate our squad but ridiculous hyperbole like that just makes you lose credibility. Where does West Ham have players like De Gea, Martial, Matic or Herrera even?

fecking West Ham United, seriously. Like I said, another couple of defeats and you'll claim the Derby starting XI isn't much worse than ours.

 

[Water Melon]

See now those are actually good points. When put like that, even I am willing to agree with the 'back him or sack him' logic though only when applied to Mourinho.

Having said that, we really should have just sacked him after that post-Sevilla press conference. And we shouldn't have extended his contract in January, obviously.

I second this. Should have sacked him after the Sevilla meltdown. Woody is as much at fault as Jose is. However, CEO is here to stay being a Glazer's puppet, so hopefully he at least learns from the mistakes he has made.

 

[Leftback99]

It was far better than bloody West Ham! Can't believe I actually have to debate this. West Ham are 13th. They finished 13th last season. I understand, yes, you do not rate our squad but ridiculous hyperbole like that just makes you lose credibility. Where does West Ham have players like De Gea, Martial, Matic or Herrera even?

fecking West Ham United, seriously. Like I said, another couple of defeats and you'll claim the Derby starting XI isn't much worse than ours.

The starting line up on Sunday would struggle to finish 6th at best (although you obviously think otherwise), is that much better than 13th? Not really.

Just because these players are in a red shirt it doesn't instantly make them better than they are. De Gea and Martial I'll give you but Matic is currently getting ripped to shreds for his performances on here. Is Rashford currently as good a striker as Arnautovic? Is Lingard a better winger than Felipe Anderson who cost £40m? Is Lindelof definitely a better CB than Diop who West Ham paid £22m for? Would anyone fear West Ham if they had Ashley Young at right back next season?

You labelled me a Mourinho 'cultist' but I'm not strongly Mourinho in or out. I'm just yet to be convinced another available manager will do better in current conditions. Most here would favour Poch (which is unrealistic because of cost). We've scored as many goals as Spurs this season who only managed 4 shots against City.

 

[Cloud7]

Back him or sack him is arguably the worst logic I have seen on Caf. It's like there is no middle ground, either sign the players manager asked for or just sack him, if every club follows that, no manager will survive the transfer market.

While those rules apply to every other manager in world football, apparently Mourinho isn’t that kind of manager and we knew that when we hired him, so it’s the clubs fault for not backing him or sacking him At this point I struggle to see what Mourinho is actually supposed to be good at if the only time he can have the team looking coherent is by spending more than everyone else on the exact players that he requests.

 

[midnightmare]

Think you need to calm down mate. Simply stating facts for the summer transfer window. I don't believe that a club that wanted to retain its manager, financially supported it's manager sufficiently enough in the summer.

Alexis, Fred, Jorginho - just three players in the last 2 windows that City didn’t get for Guardiola. Instead they just got Mahrez. Would anyone say that his club doesn’t want him?

 

[JPRouve]

Back him or sack him is arguably the worst logic I have seen on Caf. It's like there is no middle ground, either sign the players manager asked for or just sack him, if every club follows that, no manager will survive the transfer market.

The worst part about this logic is the "back him", we don't know what it means in this context, we don't know who he asked for and whether these players were available at an affordable price or even if they were actually interested. Varane for example has been a long time target for Mourinho, iirc he loves him and has stayed in contact with his agent but the player isn't really interested by a move.

So by all account when posters use Varane as a stick against the club, they are battering Mourinho himself because if there is one CB that Mourinho wants it's Varane.

 

[fellaini's barber]

Think you need to calm down mate. Simply stating facts for the summer transfer window. I don't believe that a club that wanted to retain its manager, financially supported it's manager sufficiently enough in the summer.

So the reason we can't string passes together,attack or defend properly,cant press for shit, 8th on the table is because after buying like 10 players over 2 seasons, we didn't get one or two more this summer?

 

[Adam-Utd]

So the reason we can't string passes together,attack or defend properly,cant press for shit, 8th on the table is because after buying like 10 players over 2 seasons, we didn't get one or two more this summer?

Alderweireld was the magic fix, didn't you get the memo from Mourinhoholic anonymous?

Once we have another new CB the magical football will start

 

[roonster09]

The worst part about this logic is the "back him", we don't know what it means in this context, we don't know who he asked for and whether these players were available at an affordable price or even if they were actually interested. Varane for example has been a long time target for Mourinho, iirc he loves him and has stayed in contact with his agent but the player isn't really interested by a move.

So by all account when posters use Varane as a stick against the club, they are battering Mourinho himself because if there is one CB that Mourinho wants it's Varane.

So many goal posts are moved, it's hard to see what was the initial point. Also one more point I mentioned so many times which was ignored is our squad size. We have used full quota and have to offload players to sign new players. People use Darmian as an example but we don't know how genuine the interest was from Serie A clubs as they all had other options too for full back positions.

Like many have mentioned, Woodward made a blunder by backing all his managers with the players they wanted, rather than actually having a plan and build the proper squad. I'm glad we didn't add few more old players to the squad. As it is, we have second highest wage bill with lot of old players already.

We need a clean cup, shame we are saying same thing for past 5 years.

 

[roonster09]

While those rules apply to every other manager in world football, apparently Mourinho isn’t that kind of manager and we knew that when we hired him, so it’s the clubs fault for not backing him or sacking him At this point I struggle to see what Mourinho is actually supposed to be good at if the only time he can have the team looking coherent is by spending more than everyone else on the exact players that he requests.

What I find weird is people saying 'yeah, Jose is a spoiled brat and we can't do anything about him. So lets blame others.'

 

[midnightmare]

The starting line up on Sunday would struggle to finish 6th at best (although you obviously think otherwise), is that much better than 13th? Not really.

Just because these players are in a red shirt it doesn't instantly make them better than they are. De Gea and Martial I'll give you but Matic is currently getting ripped to shreds for his performances on here. Is Rashford currently as good a striker as Arnautovic? Is Lingard a better winger than Felipe Anderson who cost £40m? Is Lindelof definitely a better CB than Diop who West Ham paid £22m for? Would anyone fear West Ham if they had Ashley Young at right back next season?

You labelled me a Mourinho 'cultist' but I'm not strongly Mourinho in or out. I'm just yet to be convinced another available manager will do better in current conditions. Most here would favour Poch (which is unrealistic because of cost). We've scored as many goals as Spurs this season who only managed 4 shots against City.

To my mind, you're conflating two points. The fact is that you need to assess the question more as "Is the current squad capable of no better display?" and here, I think the answer is "It absolutely is capable of far better" which implies that Jose isn't getting them to perform. My points:

1. You use "the starting line-up on Sunday" as a starting point. Most would surely agree that they groaned when they saw it. I did. We should have had a different line-up
2. Let's assess the squad and see what they've been capable of and whether WHam has anyone that's ever shown a level like that
- Lukaku looked like a 30-goal-a-season striker; check this out before commenting
- Alexis was considered one of the PL's top players before we signed him; most thought City landing him would mean they would be set for years
- Pogba was considered one of the world's best (and with a far higher ceiling to come) midfielders at Juve - oh and he was key in winning a little trinket this summer
- DdG is widely rated one of the best goalkeepers (if not the best) in the world
- Martial - not going to comment much on this
- WHam (funnily enough) wanted to sign Chris Smalling this summer. Wonder why...
- Man City wanted Fred; he's a Brazilian international too and looked good against City last season in the CL for a lesser team
- Luke Shaw is better than anything they have or will have any time soon
- Juan Mata was once in the PL Team of the Year - pre Man United of course
3. Looking at Chelsea and Spurs, one has two new players and the other none; both are doing better than last season. Look at Arsenal and it's similar. City are doing significantly better too. None of these has had significant changes barring managerial in the case of Chelsea and Arsenal. In all cases, players are delivering better and more than they did before. That's called "coaching" and "management".

A club not too far from here got left well behind by Jose Mourinho back in 2005-06. Added just one CM in the summer and coasted to the title in 2006-07, heralding a new dominant period.

If Jose can't coach his players to even look remotely like competent footballers, why's he here? It's pointless to highlight current performances as the basis for defending him, saying that the players aren't good enough. It's the current performances of these players that lead people like me to say that Jose isn't good enough to get us out of this.

 

[Siorac]

The starting line up on Sunday would struggle to finish 6th at best (although you obviously think otherwise), is that much better than 13th? Not really.

Just because these players are in a red shirt it doesn't instantly make them better than they are. De Gea and Martial I'll give you but Matic is currently getting ripped to shreds for his performances on here. Is Rashford currently as good a striker as Arnautovic? Is Lingard a better winger than Felipe Anderson who cost £40m? Is Lindelof definitely a better CB than Diop who West Ham paid £22m for? Would anyone fear West Ham if they had Ashley Young at right back next season?

You labelled me a Mourinho 'cultist' but I'm not strongly Mourinho in or out. I'm just yet to be convinced another available manager will do better in current conditions. Most here would favour Poch (which is unrealistic because of cost). We've scored as many goals as Spurs this season who only managed 4 shots against City.

So, for one, it makes no sense to talk about where a starting line-up would finish because leagues aren't contested with only 11 players.

Also, yeah, 6th is actually quite a lot better than 13th... that's seven whole places. Like the difference between 1st and 8th. Over the last 5 seasons, the 13th placed team finished 22 points behind the 6th placed team on average. Again, I can't believe I actually have to debate this.

Oh, and why is it relevant that West Ham paid £22m for Diop? Lindelöf cost a lot more than that, so did Bailly. Shouldn't matter, really, we know that better than anyone. And I repeat, even this underperforming squad, in terrible form, mismanaged to the extreme, are still five places ahead of West Ham on the table. Stop with the underrating of our players.

Surely another manager can't do worse? At this point it's worth getting Mourinho out just to prevent him from doing more damage to the club.

 

[johanovic]

We have a very slow team taking fewer sprints than most other teams in the PL and we also have a very bad record in running stats and we run less than most teams also. Why does this matter? In modern football not having players that can sprint and run as well as any team will mean that we are constantly outpressed, our play is static and teams just run us to the ground. Is this a training problem? Do we simply have players that are not fast enough? Do we simply have players with less running abiility than other teams? It´s a fact that if those core things are not right then we will contine to have problems as we have to be able to match other teams in sheer physcial stats.
On top of that a midfield of Matic,Fellaini and Herrera is not capable of playing fast tempo passing game. But giving Mourinho more money to continue his reign would be more of the same. When watching Bournemouth vs United the other day it was sad to see the difference in passing and movement and how much better Bournemouth were at it and could have gone 2 or 3 goals up in the first half. Eddie Howe would give us much better football than Mourinho ever can and I just do not like his behaviour acting constantly as a dramaqueen were nothing is his fault despite the guy getting 400 million to spend and most of his signings have not worked out.

 

[Leftback99]

So, for one, it makes no sense to talk about where a starting line-up would finish because leagues aren't contested with only 11 players.

Also, yeah, 6th is actually quite a lot better than 13th... that's seven whole places. Like the difference between 1st and 8th. Over the last 5 seasons, the 13th placed team finished 22 points behind the 6th placed team on average. Again, I can't believe I actually have to debate this.

Oh, and why is it relevant that West Ham paid £22m for Diop? Lindelöf cost a lot more than that, so did Bailly. Shouldn't matter, really, we know that better than anyone. And I repeat, even this underperforming squad, in terrible form, mismanaged to the extreme, are still five places ahead of West Ham on the table. Stop with the underrating of our players.

Surely another manager can't do worse? At this point it's worth getting Mourinho out just to prevent him from doing more damage to the club.

I'm talking about the starting line up on Sunday specifically because you and others have lost their heads because we didn't go toe to toe with City. If you take a more measured view of the line up it's easy to see why.

I like how you're focusing on the hypothetical 6th (at best). 6th was also 37 points behind the team we were trying to beat on Sunday. Burnley finished 7th last year are they miles better than West Ham too?

My point on Diop is that just because we spent £31m on Lindelof it doesn't make him better. If we'd sold Lindelof to say Everton in the summer for £20m no one would have batted an eye lid. They certainly wouldn't expect him to go away to City with them and shut them out. You're overrating our players as much as I might be underrating.

 

[Foxbatt]

It is not the defeat on Sunday that is the main issue. Yes most teams would get beaten by City. But we are always on the defense and struggling against any team be it City, Bournemouth or even Newcastle. They simply are coached better and play better football than us.
If Jose is unable to coach there players to play better football no amount of buying new players is going to make much of a difference.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

1) oh so now it's not an actual mistake from the initial pass maker but rather his choice to pass it to Toby who was in a perfectly good position to receive the ball and to forward it elsewhere? But since Toby has bottled it by his poor touch, poor defensive awareness and poor pass towards Lloris in this instance, it's not his fault, he shouldn't have been on the receiving end of that pass to being with?

Yes the primary cause of the goal was the poor decision by Sanchez by putting Toby in a situation that he was ill suited to handle. There were two better passes to be made and a 3rd option of hoofing the ball, but Sanchez didnot take those options. Everything else flows from that poor decision.

A similar scenario is the penalty we conceded against Everton. Yes it was Smalling that committed the foul and could have done better staying on his feet, but primary fault lies with pogba who was lackadaisical and lost the ball, putting Smalling in the situation he was ill suited to deal with.

Going by that logic when Lukaku misses a sitter it's not his fault, it's fault of the player that has passed the ball to him…

That would be Lukaku being a poor finisher or just unlucky.

2) No it is not but everyone has a mistake in them, but considering our defense is under added pressure due to our tumescent tactics of cramping our whole team in our 1/4 of the pitch, how can you be so sure Toby would have been an instant success and would have improved us instantly?

he would have improved us cos he is better than all our current CBs or do you think any of our CBs are better than him

Nothing against Toby and I do rate him but did it ever cross your mind that Toby is actually made to look better than he really is by Poch' style and system considering how he has failed in Simeone's system that was in that time much more similar to ours? Also keep in mind that according to reports signing "1 year left on his contract" Toby would have set us back some 70 million or Martial plus cash and he's soon to hit 30.

No - like I said even in that PSV goal sequence, his recovery from his error and ability to still put in a late tackle without committing the foul shows his defensive quality. Also Simeone's defense is nothing like ours - it is simply more physically aggressive and dominant (as would be expected from a Simeone+Godin defence). Coming from the Ajax school Alderweireld is too soft for such a scheme.

As to the cost argument, the first factor would be the market price for alternatives i.e. can we get someone better at that price or of similar. If not, then 70m for Toby is what the current dictates. Beyond that is to see if we can get a lower fee. If Tobywill be available for free or 25m next summer and Spurs were truly interested in accepting Mata as part of the deal, then with good negotiating skill, Ed should have been able to secure him for closer to a 40m valuation.

So why we may not have gotten Toby, that we couldnt get anyone better than our current group of CBs (given how bad they are) is the bigger problem. I simply cannot understand how a club like us cannot sign a CB that is beeter than Smalling, Lindelof, Bailly, Rojo and Jones.

 

[Siorac]

I'm talking about the starting line up on Sunday specifically because you and others have lost their heads because we didn't go toe to toe with City. If you take a more measured view of the line up it's easy to see why.

I like how you're focusing on the hypothetical 6th (at best). 6th was also 37 points behind the team we were trying to beat on Sunday. Burnley finished 7th last year are they miles better than West Ham too?

My point on Diop is that just because we spent £31m on Lindelof it doesn't make him better. If we'd sold Lindelof to say Everton in the summer for £20m no one would have batted an eye lid. They certainly wouldn't expect him to go away to City with them and shut them out. You're overrating our players as much as I might be underrating.

I never said I expected us to go toe-to-toe with City. I do think we set up terribly and were cowardly in the extreme, considering we actually beat them in April, but yeah, I can get over it, they do indeed have a much better team.

What I cannot and will not accept is nonsense like we don't have much better players than West Ham or that Sunday's starting XI wasn't much better than West Ham's starting line-up. Because that is nonsense and all it does is it seeks to absolve Mourinho of any blame for our terrible performance. And I mean terrible performance over the season so far, not this one particular game.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

If we do sign Maguire for $60m this January and we're still losing matches @cheeky_backheel will still blame Woodward somehow like he's finally done with Matic. He'll claim Jose actually wanted Ramos but got the lump of shite, it's amazing the stuff he comes up with. It's gone from everyone being a Woodward signing to everyone we've signed being Jose's 3rd choice

If we pay $60m for mcguire, that is Ed's decision and if Mcguire is not worth that price then it is on Ed for overpaying for him. If mcguire is not playing to his full potential, that is on Mourinho.

My issue is people making reference that mourinho has spent 400m when he has no control on how much we decide to pay for a player. It is very simple, Ed has the final say on who we sign and how much we pay for them. He is also the one that sells players and decides the wages paid. Thus he is responsible for the quality of the squad. Mourinho's job is to get the best out of the squad at his disposal and if he is not doing that, that is on him.

 

[midnightmare]

I'm talking about the starting line up on Sunday specifically because you and others have lost their heads because we didn't go toe to toe with City. If you take a more measured view of the line up it's easy to see why.

We didn't even try. That's what people are more upset about. Our selection seemed flawed and the tactics were bizarre in terms of playing into their hands.
Looking at the line-up, I was expecting a 3/4-0, to be fair.

I like how you're focusing on the hypothetical 6th (at best). 6th was also 37 points behind the team we were trying to beat on Sunday. Burnley finished 7th last year are they miles better than West Ham too?

We finished 19 behind City last season. We're 12 behind already in 12 games. We're well behind where we were. This isn't about the game itself but the season. We've slid from where we were. City didn't add and are ahead of where they were. ​

 

[cheeky_backheel]

This isn't his first summer ffs, it's also amazing how Pep had such an amazing summer than Jose despite signing one bloody player while we signed 3.

Pep signed one proven player that was a starter on a championship team and is good enough to compete in their starting XI while we overpaid for an average CM playing in Ukraine, a teenage that barely has first team experience and a 3rd choice GK.

 

[JPRouve]

Pep signed one proven player that was a starter on a championship team and is good enough to compete in their starting XI while we overpaid for an average CM playing in Ukraine, a teenage that barely has first team experience and a 3rd choice GK.

An average player that City targeted and if we paid that much for an average player then it disprove the idea that the manager isn't backed.