The Mourinho Thread: Should he stay or go? | Sacked

[JonDahl]

It is very simple, Ed has the final say on who we sign and how much we pay for them. He is also the one that sells players and decides the wages paid. Thus he is responsible for the quality of the squad.

No, that’s not how it works. He’s not a scout buying whoever he wants without input and he’s not selling players over the managers head.

The players that should come into the squad (you know, the quality) is decided by the scouts/manager, it’s then up to Ed to make it happen within the confines of finances. This where all the talks of lists comes in, if he can’t get target number 1, he then moves onto 2.

You’re right, this is simple.

 

[Leftback99]

I never said I expected us to go toe-to-toe with City. I do think we set up terribly and were cowardly in the extreme, considering we actually beat them in April, but yeah, I can get over it, they do indeed have a much better team.

What I cannot and will not accept is nonsense like we don't have much better players than West Ham or that Sunday's starting XI wasn't much better than West Ham's starting line-up. Because that is nonsense and all it does is it seeks to absolve Mourinho of any blame for our terrible performance. And I mean terrible performance over the season so far, not this one particular game.

We'll have to agree to disagree. You're attitude seems to be that it's impossible for any team below us to have a better player in any particular position.

I'm not trying to absolve Mourinho but to add a bit of balance that our poor performance isn't 100% on him either.

 

[Foxbatt]

How can our poor performance be on Woodward then? He is not the one who is choosing the players or coaching them or selecting the team and the tactics? It is strictly Jose.

 

[Leftback99]

We didn't even try. That's what people are more upset about. Our selection seemed flawed and the tactics were bizarre in terms of playing into their hands.
Looking at the line-up, I was expecting a 3/4-0, to be fair.

We finished 19 behind City last season. We're 12 behind already in 12 games. We're well behind where we were. This isn't about the game itself but the season. We've slid from where we were. City didn't add and are ahead of where they were. ​

We over performed last season. We got a lot of points we didn't deserve on the balance of play largely thanks to De Geas's heroics. At the end of last season I predicted on here we'd be around 6th without investment and that Liverpool would be City's closest challenger, people didn't agree and laughed but sometimes you have to look beyond the points total.

How can our poor performance be on Woodward then? He is not the one who is choosing the players or coaching them or selecting the team and the tactics? It is strictly Jose.

Yes it's 100% Jose, the supposedly great players we have are also completely blameless.

 

[fellaini's barber]

If we pay $60m for mcguire, that is Ed's decision and if Mcguire is not worth that price then it is on Ed for overpaying for him. If mcguire is not playing to his full potential, that is on Mourinho.

My issue is people making reference that Mourinho has spent 400m when he has no control on how much we decide to pay for a player. It is very simple, Ed has the final say on who we sign and how much we pay for them. He is also the one that sells players and decides the wages paid. Thus he is responsible for the quality of the squad. Mourinho's job is to get the best out of the squad at his disposal and if he is not doing that, that is on him.

OK you'd feel better if we say 'Ed has spent $400m and we still can't play football'?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

An average player that City targeted and if we paid that much for an average player then it disprove the idea that the manager isn't backed.

It is silly to use City's interest as justification to buy, talk less of overpaying for, a player. They have oil money to burn (which we dont) and have enough quality depth in their squad that a bad signing wouldnt be as damaging. We dont have such margins to play with.

Paying 52m for Fred only proves we were shafted! We were almost paying 80m+ for Morata but Chelsea got him for 65m. We paid 40m for a Matic that we would be lucky to get 2yrs out of when younger alternatives were available for the same price. Did we not also over pay for Fellaini or is that on Mourinho as well?

With the 3 past managers, all evidence simply points to Ed being bad at the transfer biz and we should simply appoint someone better equipped to manage it

 

[cheeky_backheel]

No, that’s not how it works. He’s not a scout buying whoever he wants without input and he’s not selling players over the managers head.

The players that should come into the squad (you know, the quality) is decided by the scouts/manager, it’s then up to Ed to make it happen within the confines of finances. This where all the talks of lists comes in, if he can’t get target number 1, he then moves onto 2.

You’re right, this is simple.

Does the list provided by Mourinho also include a price tag for each player? If not
- Who decides how much we pay for a player and if a player is worth the asking price?
- Who decided we should pay 40m for Matic and 52m for Fred?
- Who decided not to pay 50m for Perisic and 60m for Mcguire?
- Was it also Mourinho who bought Fellaini, Depay, Schneiderlin, etc?

Ed has inputs from the manager, scouts, finance, marketing etc but he has the final say. Authority and responsibility should go together

 

[cheeky_backheel]

OK you'd feel better if we say 'Ed has spent $400m and we still can't play football'?

Wrong - I would rather you relate the amount spent to the quality of the squad assembled with it

 

[Bilbo]

It was far better than bloody West Ham! Can't believe I actually have to debate this. West Ham are 13th. They finished 13th last season. I understand, yes, you do not rate our squad but ridiculous hyperbole like that just makes you lose credibility. Where does West Ham have players like De Gea, Martial, Matic or Herrera even?

fecking West Ham United, seriously. Like I said, another couple of defeats and you'll claim the Derby starting XI isn't much worse than ours.

That West Ham match would have done for most managers. He played Scott McTominay in a back three and left centre backs on the bench. Looked very much like his attempt to make a point to the board (and the fans) about not giving him another centre back. Horrendous performance, 3 points dropped, no actual gain for anyone apart from fuelling the belief of those fans (me being one of them) that he thinks of himself as bigger than our club - any club for that matter.

No sign of McTominay since then. What sort of damage this episode must have done to him we can only speculate on, but it can't be good.

 

[JonDahl]

Does the list provided by Mourinho also include a price tag for each player? If not
- Who decides how much we pay for a player and if a player is worth the asking price?
- Who decided we should pay 40m for Matic and 52m for Fred?
- Who decided not to pay 50m for Perisic and 60m for Mcguire?
- Was it also Mourinho who bought Fellaini, Depay, Schneiderlin, etc?

Ed has inputs from the manager, scouts, finance, marketing etc but he has the final say. Authority and responsibility should go together

You’re mentioning cost when I was calling out your ridiculous point about squad quality. I don’t care about prices in this instance so stop trying to move the goalposts.

Ed is not responsible for the quality of the squad because he’s not picking who to bid for and who is surplus to requirements. It’s pretty obvious he bids for those players recommended to him but he’s not choosing the players himself. Thus he’s not “responsible for the quality of the squad”.

 

[Random Task]

Yes it's 100% Jose, the supposedly great players we have are also completely blameless.

The manager is responsible for picking the players he believes most likely to get a result and then motivating them to perform at or beyond their ability. He is also responsible for delegating tactical instruction both individually and to the team as a whole, plus laying out the strategy which is most likely to achieve that result. When the team fails to achieve the desired result, the manager shoulders the blame. This has been true in football since the creation of the game.

That said, we are currently sitting in 8th place, some 7 points from CL qualification and further 5 points from the top spot.

 

[JPRouve]

Does the list provided by Mourinho also include a price tag for each player? If not
- Who decides how much we pay for a player and if a player is worth the asking price?
- Who decided we should pay 40m for Matic and 52m for Fred?
- Who decided not to pay 50m for Perisic and 60m for Mcguire?
- Was it also Mourinho who bought Fellaini, Depay, Schneiderlin, etc?

Ed has inputs from the manager, scouts, finance, marketing etc but he has the final say. Authority and responsibility should go together

You said that the signing was an average player, you basically admitted that the list was the issue. All debate stops there, the manager got the player that he asked for and the club spent what was needed to land them, you are basically making the point that the club should tell Mourinho to do one and comeback with more serious lists.

Also you don't know how much Inter or Leicester asked, you don't even know if Perisic and Maguire pushed for a move.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

You’re mentioning cost when I was calling out your ridiculous point about squad quality. I don’t care about prices in this instance so stop trying to move the goalposts.

Ed is not responsible for the quality of the squad because he’s not picking who to bid for and who is surplus to requirements. It’s pretty obvious he bids for those players recommended to him but he’s not choosing the players himself. Thus he’s not “responsible for the quality of the squad”.

But Ed is responsible cos he is the one deciding not to buy certain players of higher quality and buy players of lower quality. If he is given a list for 5 positions with 4 candidates on each, and he decides to buy the players of lowest quality in each position (or not buying at all), is he not then responsible for the lowered quality in the squad?.

 

[Bilbo]

It is silly to use City's interest as justification to buy, talk less of overpaying for, a player. They have oil money to burn (which we dont) and have enough quality depth in their squad that a bad signing wouldnt be as damaging. We dont have such margins to play with.

Paying 52m for Fred only proves we were shafted! We were almost paying 80m+ for Morata but Chelsea got him for 65m. We paid 40m for a Matic that we would be lucky to get 2yrs out of when younger alternatives were available for the same price. Did we not also over pay for Fellaini or is that on Mourinho as well?

With the 3 past managers, all evidence simply points to Ed being bad at the transfer biz and we should simply appoint someone better equipped to manage it

Looking at signings in isolation it would appear that United are the side that have money to burn. 9 of the XI that started at the weekend weren't signed by Jose.

The money that City have spent is right there on the pitch.

 

[CA1]

The manager is responsible for picking the players he believes most likely to get a result and then motivating them to perform at or beyond their ability. He is also responsible for delegating tactical instruction both individually and to the team as a whole, plus laying out a strategy which is most likely to achieve that result. When the team fail to achieve the desired result, the manager shoulders the blame. This has been true in football since the creation of the game.

That said, we are currently sitting in 8th place, some 7 points from CL qualification and further 5 points from the top spot.

You overestimate the importance of the coach.

Rochdale (sorry Rochdale) have been playing lower league football for pretty much their whole 150 year history because they haven't got the players. They haven't just appointed 30-40 managers in that time who can't coach a team.

Southampton are generally mid table-bottom top flight their whole history because of the same reason.

Players win and lose football matches. This has been in true in football since the creation of the game. And the main reason we've not been as good in the last 6 years is because our players aren't good enough. They've been consistently inconsistent in that time and have fragile fluctuations in confidence and motivation. This is the sure sign of a player below top class level.

 

[roonster09]

You said that the signing was an average player, you basically admitted that the list was the issue. All debate stops there, the manager got the player that he asked for and the club spent what was needed to land them, you are basically making the point that the club should tell Mourinho to do one and comeback with more serious lists.

Also you don't know how much Inter or Leicester asked, you don't even know if Perisic and Maguire pushed for a move.

Like I said in my other post, goals posts are well and truly moved.

 

[CA1]

In the words of the late great Brian Clough

"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes"

 

[Random Task]

You overestimate the importance of the coach.

Rochdale (sorry Rochdale) have been playing lower league football for pretty much their whole 150 year history because they haven't got the players. They haven't just appointed 30-40 managers in that time who can't coach a team.

Southampton are generally mid table-bottom top flight their whole history because of the same reason.

Players win and lose football matches. This has been in true in football since the creation of the game.

Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Why are you comparing the situation at lowly Rochdale to a behemoth of the game such as Man United?

 

[Leftback99]

The manager is responsible for picking the players he believes most likely to get a result and then motivating them to perform at or beyond their ability. He is also responsible for delegating tactical instruction both individually and to the team as a whole, plus laying out the strategy which is most likely to achieve that result. When the team fails to achieve the desired result, the manager shoulders the blame. This has been true in football since the creation of the game.

That said, we are currently sitting in 8th place, some 7 points from CL qualification and further 5 points from the top spot.

I hope I'm proved completely wrong and it turns out Mourinho is the only reason that we aren't challenging City. On the other hand it will be interesting who people blame next if it doesn't go any better under a new manager.

 

[Bilbo]

But Ed is responsible cos he is the one deciding not to buy certain players of higher quality and buy players of lower quality. If he is given a list for 5 positions with 4 candidates on each, and he decides to buy the players of lowest quality in each position (or not buying at all), is he not then responsible for the lowered quality in the squad?.

I'd be interested to know if anyone poster on here believes that we've signed any players that Jose was against us signing.

 

[Adisa]

Some people really believe this squad isn't better than where we are.
You'd swear Mourinho managed us befrbe and broke all sort of records to garner this kind of following.
If you really think no other manager can have us much better than 8th and with a negative GD, you need your head checked.

 

[VP89]

Looking at signings in isolation it would appear that United are the side that have money to burn. 9 of the XI that started at the weekend weren't signed by Jose.

The money that City have spent is right there on the pitch.

Weren't Pogba Lukaku and Sanchez not 100% fit though?

 

[JonDahl]

But Ed is responsible cos he is the one deciding not to buy certain players of higher quality and buy players of lower quality. If he is given a list for 5 positions with 4 candidates on each, and he decides to buy the players of lowest quality in each position (or not buying at all), is he not then responsible for the lowered quality in the squad?.

No of course not. It’s up to the scouts and manager to stop putting players of low quality and compatibility on the list.

If all the targets are unobtainable (let’s say Messi and Ronaldo were recommended), then it’s the fault of the scouting team and manager for not being able to identify anyone else who can also do the job. Otherwise the manager will just keep asking for the very best, unobtainable players, and when they inevitably don’t sign, he will say “I’m not in charge of the quality of the squad, I wanted Neymar, Hazard, Griezmann and De Bruyne”. A truly preposterous notion.

 

[Random Task]

In the words of the late great Brian Clough

"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes"

Okay, are you seeking attention or simply on a windup?

No disrespect intended to the late great Brian Clough, but the game has moved on a considerable amount since his day. That should be obvious, mate.

 

[CA1]

Sorry, but I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Why are you comparing the situation at lowly Rochdale to a behemoth of the game such as Man United?

The point is that Rochdale are bad because their players are bad.

People on here can't fathom that Manchester United' players just aren't that good and when they have generally performed around a similar level for a period of 6-7 years then that is most likely their level. Just because they put our shirt on, they don't suddenly become world class players. Ask Liverpool about their transition from world beaters to also rans. Or older United fans who grew up in the 70's and 80's.

 

[VP89]

I hope I'm proved completely wrong and it turns out Mourinho is the only reason that we aren't challenging City. On the other hand it will be interesting who people blame next if it doesn't go any better under a new manager.

I'm guessing theyl just blame the manager.

 

[JPRouve]

Like I said in my other post, goals posts are well and truly moved.

It's surprising because unnecessary. I jokingly mentioned the rumor that Isco wasn't pursued by United because his head was too big according to our scouts, if Woodward is listening to these people then he deserves an almighty slap. But at the same time, Mourinho is responsible for the lists that he gives, if they are bad, they are bad and from fans POV we should recognize it and criticize it.
All that doesn't take away Woodward's own responsibilities, Woodward is working for the club and acquiring players is a massive part of his job, so he is responsible for the amount of money that we allocate in that department but also the quality which means that when his subordinate, scouts or managers, ask for stupid things he should tell them to go back to their drawing boards.

As fans we don't need to choose between the manager and the board, we can be objective.

 

[CA1]

Some people really believe this squad isn't better than where we are.
You'd swear Mourinho managed us befrbe and broke all sort of records to garner this kind of following.
If you really think no other manager can have us much better than 8th and with a negative GD, you need your head checked.

They'd have us better than 8th but they wouldn't have us better than 2nd in a full season IMO.

 

[CA1]

It's surprising because unnecessary. I jokingly mentioned the rumor that Isco wasn't pursued by United because his head was too big according to our scouts, if Woodward is listening to these people then he deserves an almighty slap. But at the same time, Mourinho is responsible for the lists that he gives, if they are bad, they are bad and from fans POV we should recognize it and criticize it.
All that doesn't take away Woodward's own responsibilities, Woodward is working for the club and acquiring players is a massive part of his job, so he is responsible for the amount of money that we allocate in that department but also the quality which means that when his subordinate, scouts or managers, ask for stupid things he should tell them to go back to their drawing boards.

As fans we don't need to choose between the manager and the board, we can be objective.

Even you have to admit, it's going to be funny as feck when Jardim gets appointed and then it takes until August for Jardim to realise he has to identify signings because we don't have a DOF.

 

[Siorac]

We'll have to agree to disagree. You're attitude seems to be that it's impossible for any team below us to have a better player in any particular position.

I'm not trying to absolve Mourinho but to add a bit of balance that our poor performance isn't 100% on him either.

Erm, no? But that's not what you said. My attitude is that a team that finished 13th last season and is 13th this season does have a far inferior team, overall, to ours. Even compared to our Sunday starting line-up. It does not mean none of their players are as good or better as any of ours.

 

[Random Task]

I hope I'm proved completely wrong and it turns out Mourinho is the only reason that we aren't challenging City. On the other hand it will be interesting who people blame next if it doesn't go any better under a new manager.

The most obvious reason we aren't challenging City is because we simply lack the funds to compete with them in the transfer market.

Every situation is judged on individual merit, the new manager will be no exception.

 

[Siorac]

That West Ham match would have done for most managers. He played Scott McTominay in a back three and left centre backs on the bench. Looked very much like his attempt to make a point to the board (and the fans) about not giving him another centre back. Horrendous performance, 3 points dropped, no actual gain for anyone apart from fuelling the belief of those fans (me being one of them) that he thinks of himself as bigger than our club - any club for that matter.

No sign of McTominay since then. What sort of damage this episode must have done to him we can only speculate on, but it can't be good.

And that after deploying Ander Herrera of all people as a third centre-back against Spurs and losing 3-0 in a similar exercise in petty points scoring. He clearly does consider himself bigger than any club indeed.

 

[Random Task]

Even you have to admit, it's going to be funny as feck when Jardim gets appointed and then it takes until August for Jardim to realise he has to identify signings because we don't have a DOF.

 

[CA1]

It happened to Van Gaal.

Remember when he came in and Woodward said here's Shaw and Herrera.

Took ages for the message to get through that he had to identify the players after that. Seperated by a common language.

 

[Janson]

Hey, yeah you're kind of right there. I did make another (also dramatic) post about it later.

Yeah, sorry. I hadn't read that far.

 

[JPRouve]

Even you have to admit, it's going to be funny as feck when Jardim gets appointed and then it takes until August for Jardim to realise he has to identify signings because we don't have a DOF.

Why even me? I have said for years(since 2014) that the football side of things should be dealt by a DOF, objectively Woodward is good with the financial part and that's very important for the club. The difference is that I have no need to defend the manager at all cost.

 

[Bilbo]

Weren't Pogba Lukaku and Sanchez not 100% fit though?

Yes, and that's kind of my point (badly made perhaps). Those three players cost this club £180m and probably another £150m in contracts. IMO Mourinho hasn't figured out the best way to use any of those players. You would hope for that kind of financial commitment a manager would be 100% certain about how we intended to use them - how they fit into his system. It's a serious lack of due diligence on our part.

Pep has signed exactly the right players for his vision. They are all out there contributing and getting better.

 

[redIndianDevil]

Yes - but was he ever likely to do that?

Look, I'm not defending Jose here: his ridiculous «statement» line-ups would be reason enough for me to terminate his contract there and then.

This isn't about Jose as much as it is about the people who run this football club.

Jose's reactions and comments both during and immediately after the window indicate that he wasn't sufficiently backed from his point of view: what we think about his targets is beside the point. The Woodward briefing (and, again, Jose's comments/reactions) suggests that those targets were denied him, not that they weren't available for technical or financial reasons.

If you're Woodward, the options on the table are a) back him, because you think he can deliver something, even if it means paying through the teeth for feckin' Perisic or whoever - or b) sack him, because it's clear he won't deliver what you thought he would two years ago. Call it another failed experiment, try to get it right with the next guy (hopefully combined with bringing in a DoF, etc.).

What you don't do is to issue briefings to the media, sit back and hope Jose Mourinho will get on with the job like a good lad. What happened at the beginning of the season was 100% to be expected. And Woodward either didn't see it coming - or he doesn't give a shit, thinking (who knows, he may be right about that) we'll scrape 4th anyway with a bit of luck.

But you are defending him. The "sack him or back him" logic is completely stupid, no manager in this world gets every player he wants. If that's the way it worked in the world, no manager would get more than a year as a contract. Like I have already explained, none of the targets were denied, they were all just impossible. The only achievable targets were Alderweireld and to an extent Maguire but Alderweireld is available on the cheap in 6 months and we had no idea what Leicester would have demanded for Maguire if we had seriously entered into the negotiations(bear in mind they demanded 90m for a want-away Mahrez and Maguire has a long contract and we would have had to pay an English premium).

 

[CA1]

Why even me? I have said for years(since 2014) that the football side of things should be dealt by a DOF, objectively Woodward is good with the financial part and that's very important for the club. The difference is that I have no need to defend the manager at all cost.

Here's the thing though Rouve, this DOF won't be appointed. The Caf hasn't cottoned on yet

Theyve fallen hook, line and sinker for it. If there was one to be appointed, he should be appointed ASAP.

 

[BaseFishing]

In the words of the late great Brian Clough

"Players lose you games, not tactics. There's so much crap talked about tactics by people who barely know how to win at dominoes"

That's all great but there are tons and tons of football players on the planet. We, as an institution, need to be able to identify the ones that will fit into our system and we need to bring them in. The person whose shoulders that has fallen on is Mourinho.

He has spent hundreds of millions of pounds. There is no excuse.

It has to be understood - the fact that most of us are saying that Mourinho has to go is not a statement in contradiction with the idea that the club has been run poorly from the top as well. Both are true. And one doesn't take away from the other.

The statement "players win you games" is literally the opposite of the notion of management. Think about that - whatever percent of the performance players are responsible for, be it 99% or 80%, the other 1% or 20% or whatever it is, is what the management is there for. That's the whole point of management.

Nobody is saying that we should disband the club and put all our efforts into getting Einstein as club manager and then have him turn up on the pitch and attempt to win games by beating the players at physics. Yes, of course the players matter most. Just like in traditional warfare the soldiers matter most. But when your empire is losing the war, your turn to your chief strategist. And if he says "well we just have sh*t soldiers, I told you guys to get better ones" then you fire that guy immediately. And you also simultaneously look at how to get better soldiers. These two things don't contradict each other. But if you were to get a better strategist, you may just eventually win the war. Whereas for the guy with all the excuses and negativism, you would have had to magically create the perfect breed of super-soldiers, and maybe, just maybe, he might have gotten you better results.

Nobody is arguing our players are good enough for the top. But our manager isn't either., and that has to be addressed first. Not because it's the easier thing to address but because it is the more crucial thing. Because he sets the tempo and the atmosphere for the whole team. You can also apply this to those higher up, and that would be true too. They have to go too. But I don't think there's any chance of that happening soon. What there is a chance of happening is that we might in a few months appoint someone who wants to take the club forward, truly forward, on the footballing side of things.

Look at Arsenal - when Wenger was still there they had problems with the board. Those problems aren't just magically gone. But at least the board saw that Wenger was past it and appointed someone who was willing to take the club forward on the pitch. It's time we did the same.

Mourinho doesn't want to go forward. Nor did LVG. They were both obsessed with the tactics of the past, and with their own footballing past. Moyes didn't even know where he wanted to go, if he even had a notion of what going means. It's not that hard to hire an intelligent, non-narcissistic person. Just because we've failed a few times doesn't mean we should stop trying.